USA Work and Quality of Life Issues

[Craig234]

One of the problems in worker issues is that some less informed people treat the word market like a cult - they kind of worship and fight passionately for it to rule every corner of the system, fighting against any effort to do anything good for people like they were fighting the Nazis, but blindly, not understanding the real thing they're fighting for.

They have this simple but wrong idea that 'the market' will provide for people and that anyone who supports, say, a minimum wage wants to cause disaster.

If they actually got informed, they'd better understand the benefits and the limits of 'the market' and why it's not the answer and is harmful when overused.

Until then they're just unpaid warriors for the market cult fighting to hurt society.

 

[Murloc]

If they actually got informed, they'd better understand the benefits and the limits of 'the market' and why it's not the answer and is harmful when overused.

Until then they're just unpaid warriors for the market cult fighting to hurt society.

do these people also fight against antitrust laws?

 

[Craig234]

do these people also fight against antitrust laws?

Sometimes. They're not all completely unable to appreciate any issues with markets.

It basically depends how they're informed about antitrust issues.

It's a bit like how someone can be well informed about and strongly opposed to bigotry against one group, while remaining bigoted against another.

Problems with monopolies are so well understood many get that issue.

 

[shadow9d9]

That isn't the point of this discussion topic.
the point of the discussion topic is vacation time, maternity leave and health benefits.

OP's point of reference is of upper management and she is directly comparing USA and Europe based on Vacation\Maternity\Health benefits.

CycloWizard appears to be questioning the work ethic of the OP in the context of her statements in this thread.

It does look like it has gotten a wee bit personal in this thread.

Actually he was quoting me and going after me, despite not reading my very first sentence, saying that I have as much vacation time as I want, since I own my own business(and have since college).

 

[CycloWizard]

I know this is usually a P&N retort, but you come off as an elitist, self-absorbed prick. I am a well paid software engineer who is allowed to manage my own time as you do, but I have no illusion that a majority of Americans enjoy the same benefits. The nature of my profession usually allows me to manage my own time as long as I adhere to a delivery time table. You think someone who works at a factory or a service job is able to do that? You need to pull your head out of your boss's rear end and realize there is a world outside of it.

What specifically did I say that was elitist or self-absorbed? If someone wants to work on their own schedule and do their own thing, then they need to have a skillset or some other factor that enables them to do so. If they drop out of high school and want a month of vacation every year, screw them. You get to the point where you can do your own thing by working hard, not by hardly working. There are plenty of other people who can take over menial jobs which is precisely why such workers lack substantial benefits. That's economics 101. I'm sorry if you confused it with my own personal bias because you have a distorted view of reality due to an emotional problem.

 

[shadow9d9]

What specifically did I say that was elitist or self-absorbed? If someone wants to work on their own schedule and do their own thing, then they need to have a skillset or some other factor that enables them to do so. If they drop out of high school and want a month of vacation every year, screw them. You get to the point where you can do your own thing by working hard, not by hardly working. There are plenty of other people who can take over menial jobs which is precisely why such workers lack substantial benefits. That's economics 101. I'm sorry if you confused it with my own personal bias because you have a distorted view of reality due to an emotional problem.

The fact that you were so eager to respond in anger and lash out at me, despite the fact that I laid it out clearly that I personally have as much vacation as I want, shows how angry, bitter, and elitist you are.

You also chose his post to respond to instead of mine, where you'd have to apologize for your ridiculous condescending tone, despite your own inability to read, shows your colors clearer than anything...

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I know this is usually a P&N retort, but you come off as an elitist, self-absorbed prick.

We don't do stuff like that here. Based on the mention of P&N, you obviously knew it was inappropriate, so please exercise better restraint next time.

Then quit posting on Anandtech forums and become more valuable. I have no sympathy for lazy individuals who complain about how overworked and underpaid they are.

Same with this. The discussion is about Americans in general, and there's no need to make it personal like this.

C'mon guys.

 

[randomrogue]

Let me state first that I'm not a woman lol. I'm a man who is well educated, has owned stakes in two companies, and was rich before he turned 30 through hard work. The American dream right?

What good is all this money if you can't take the time off to enjoy it? This notion that you can negotiate for more time off is very unrealistic. I'm sorry but if you're valuable then they need you there and if you're not valuable they'll just replace you. I've had employees who, by our cultural standards, tried to "hold us hostage" and although we gave them what they wanted we also fired them as soon as possible. Yep you can get your vacation and you can get your extra pay at the threat of leaving but we weren't going to take that shit for long. We generally hired their replacement immediately. They knew it since we made them train them. Writing was on the wall and they're thinking "Ok now I need to stop asking for so much and I'll be ok" but it's too late. They were fired the moment they tried that shit even if it took us 3 years to get them out the door. That's how the real corporate America works. When the recession hit I had to cut my overhead fast and the first people to go were the "greedy" ones who "held us hostage".

Eventually I woke up. This elitist and capitalistic idea seems great when you're in the bubble and not seeing outside of it but once you see the other side it becomes clear that we're running America into the ground. You can't truly understand how bad our system is until you put it side by side with someone elses system. My stack of medical paperwork that I was constantly having to deal with through my Health Savings Plan and Insurance company vs just going to the doctor and paying $20 or whatever it costs and getting things done without them trying to bill me for $5000 a month later? Wow which one is better? My 2 weeks of vacation that is really less since it had to be during the Christmas/New Years holiday or my multiple vacations a year? Over a year of maternity leave vs NOTHING in most of the USA?

Look around at you, your family, and your friends? How happy is everyone? Living in Europe has been an amazing experience since everyone here is so much happier and healthier. While my friends in the states just work more, make less money, are getting fatter, their houses are underwater or breaking even, and they are whining about gas going up a few dimes I'm living pretty good. I just wish Europe was at the equator.

I think another thing worth pointing out is that it seems that our American culture is too focused on cost cutting and competing with China or similar cheap labor markets. In Europe there are so many companies that specialize in something like the best ball bearings, the best drill bit, the best clock, etc and they charge a high price to get it. People pay these prices for quality and they can afford to pay and treat their employees fairly. I'm pretty sure America used to be like this but it seems to be a disappearing part of our culture.

 

[ivwshane]

Let me state first that I'm not a woman lol. I'm a man who is well educated, has owned stakes in two companies, and was rich before he turned 30 through hard work. The American dream right?

What good is all this money if you can't take the time off to enjoy it? This notion that you can negotiate for more time off is very unrealistic. I'm sorry but if you're valuable then they need you there and if you're not valuable they'll just replace you. I've had employees who, by our cultural standards, tried to "hold us hostage" and although we gave them what they wanted we also fired them as soon as possible. Yep you can get your vacation and you can get your extra pay at the threat of leaving but we weren't going to take that shit for long. We generally hired their replacement immediately. They knew it since we made them train them. Writing was on the wall and they're thinking "Ok now I need to stop asking for so much and I'll be ok" but it's too late. They were fired the moment they tried that shit even if it took us 3 years to get them out the door. That's how the real corporate America works. When the recession hit I had to cut my overhead fast and the first people to go were the "greedy" ones who "held us hostage".

Eventually I woke up. This elitist and capitalistic idea seems great when you're in the bubble and not seeing outside of it but once you see the other side it becomes clear that we're running America into the ground. You can't truly understand how bad our system is until you put it side by side with someone elses system. My stack of medical paperwork that I was constantly having to deal with through my Health Savings Plan and Insurance company vs just going to the doctor and paying $20 or whatever it costs and getting things done without them trying to bill me for $5000 a month later? Wow which one is better? My 2 weeks of vacation that is really less since it had to be during the Christmas/New Years holiday or my multiple vacations a year? Over a year of maternity leave vs NOTHING in most of the USA?

Look around at you, your family, and your friends? How happy is everyone? Living in Europe has been an amazing experience since everyone here is so much happier and healthier. While my friends in the states just work more, make less money, are getting fatter, their houses are underwater or breaking even, and they are whining about gas going up a few dimes I'm living pretty good. I just wish Europe was at the equator.

I think another thing worth pointing out is that it seems that our American culture is too focused on cost cutting and competing with China or similar cheap labor markets. In Europe there are so many companies that specialize in something like the best ball bearings, the best drill bit, the best clock, etc and they charge a high price to get it. People pay these prices for quality and they can afford to pay and treat their employees fairly. I'm pretty sure America used to be like this but it seems to be a disappearing part of our culture.

I always love to hear of "awakening" stories, it gives me hope that the future can be better and people can change.

Was there a particular moment when your thinking changed? What was it?

 

[randomrogue]

No I wish I could share a "moment" but it was many. One of them was that I was criticized for not coming into work when I had the flu. Another was that everyone was unhappy in one way or another. Another was that people were prioritizing their work over their families. A big moment was Monday morning in the office since that's the day that most people have a nice cup of coffee and talk about their weekend. Normal people would talk about what they did with their family, their kids, or their SO. Greedy bastards would still be talking about something related to wealth and would neglect the rest. Another big one is that everyone was worried about their job, their house, and stressing about everything. There was no security. Basically, in a nutshell, eventually you notice that the values of people around you revolve around money and only money. Working is more important than family. Working is more important than health. Working is more important than everything. The rich worry about getting more money. Everyone else worries about having enough.

So I left.

 

[Quantos]

Let me state first that I'm not a woman lol. I'm a man who is well educated, has owned stakes in two companies, and was rich before he turned 30 through hard work. The American dream right?

What good is all this money if you can't take the time off to enjoy it? This notion that you can negotiate for more time off is very unrealistic. I'm sorry but if you're valuable then they need you there and if you're not valuable they'll just replace you. I've had employees who, by our cultural standards, tried to "hold us hostage" and although we gave them what they wanted we also fired them as soon as possible. Yep you can get your vacation and you can get your extra pay at the threat of leaving but we weren't going to take that shit for long. We generally hired their replacement immediately. They knew it since we made them train them. Writing was on the wall and they're thinking "Ok now I need to stop asking for so much and I'll be ok" but it's too late. They were fired the moment they tried that shit even if it took us 3 years to get them out the door. That's how the real corporate America works. When the recession hit I had to cut my overhead fast and the first people to go were the "greedy" ones who "held us hostage".

Eventually I woke up. This elitist and capitalistic idea seems great when you're in the bubble and not seeing outside of it but once you see the other side it becomes clear that we're running America into the ground. You can't truly understand how bad our system is until you put it side by side with someone elses system. My stack of medical paperwork that I was constantly having to deal with through my Health Savings Plan and Insurance company vs just going to the doctor and paying $20 or whatever it costs and getting things done without them trying to bill me for $5000 a month later? Wow which one is better? My 2 weeks of vacation that is really less since it had to be during the Christmas/New Years holiday or my multiple vacations a year? Over a year of maternity leave vs NOTHING in most of the USA?

Look around at you, your family, and your friends? How happy is everyone? Living in Europe has been an amazing experience since everyone here is so much happier and healthier. While my friends in the states just work more, make less money, are getting fatter, their houses are underwater or breaking even, and they are whining about gas going up a few dimes I'm living pretty good. I just wish Europe was at the equator.

I think another thing worth pointing out is that it seems that our American culture is too focused on cost cutting and competing with China or similar cheap labor markets. In Europe there are so many companies that specialize in something like the best ball bearings, the best drill bit, the best clock, etc and they charge a high price to get it. People pay these prices for quality and they can afford to pay and treat their employees fairly. I'm pretty sure America used to be like this but it seems to be a disappearing part of our culture.

I think part of the problem is that the type of American work ethics you mention can be considered an extreme form of capitalism. Presumably, the primary objective of any corporation is to turn a profit at the end of the quarter, but often it seems companies forget this is not the only objective. If a company writes black numbers in its numbers book, but that it alienates its employees and (often) its consumer base, it's not long before it becomes the perfect example of what you're talking about: profit machine that provides poor quality of work and life to its employees.

Probably that the biggest issue in the USA is that, every time these issues come up, the following question is bound to be asked: "Who decides what are the advantages, and more importantly, who pays for it?". Does the government create laws forcing corporations to give certain benefits? Are these government-backed benefits actually paid for by the government itself? Alternatively, do the corporation themselves have to pay for them?

Overall, it's a fine line, and for most corporations, especially in today's job market, it's indeed much easier to fire any employee that complains, and hire a college graduate who was working up 'till now at the local McDonald's.

 

[randomrogue]

I think part of the problem is that the type of American work ethics you mention can be considered an extreme form of capitalism. Presumably, the primary objective of any corporation is to turn a profit at the end of the quarter, but often it seems companies forget this is not the only objective. If a company writes black numbers in its numbers book, but that it alienates its employees and (often) its consumer base, it's not long before it becomes the perfect example of what you're talking about: profit machine that provides poor quality of work and life to its employees.

Probably that the biggest issue in the USA is that, every time these issues come up, the following question is bound to be asked: "Who decides what are the advantages, and more importantly, who pays for it?". Does the government create laws forcing corporations to give certain benefits? Are these government-backed benefits actually paid for by the government itself? Alternatively, do the corporation themselves have to pay for them?

Overall, it's a fine line, and for most corporations, especially in today's job market, it's indeed much easier to fire any employee that complains, and hire a college graduate who was working up 'till now at the local McDonald's.

The real money is made in environments just like the one I described above. We treated our employees great. Paid them more than the competition. Turned a profit. However they had to live within our cultural rules. Extra vacation? Not American. Maternity/Paternity leave? Not American. A pension plan? Not American. Save your own money and invest in a 401K buddy! Universal health care? What?! America has the best health care! Move to France you socialist hippy if you want something different! Instead you can sit here and deal with rising insurance premiums and the ridiculously poor system we have here just like everyone else.

It's not a fine line at all. You need to simply pass a law that states that your taxes will rise 3% (or so) for each benefit and everyone will get it. So if you make $100,000 a year you'll pay an extra $10,000 a year but get an extra month of vacation, a year or more of M/Paternity leave, universal healthcare, and an improved social security program as long as you work until 67. As Americans we feel that everyone shouldn't have these benefits though and that some are better than others. What you fail to realize is that when you live in a society that has all these benefits everyone is happier and healthier and it's so much nicer to live in.

 

[Quantos]

The real money is made in environments just like the one I described above. We treated our employees great. Paid them more than the competition. Turned a profit. However they had to live within our cultural rules. Extra vacation? Not American. Maternity/Paternity leave? Not American. A pension plan? Not American. Save your own money and invest in a 401K buddy! Universal health care? What?! America has the best health care! Move to France you socialist hippy if you want something different! Instead you can sit here and deal with rising insurance premiums and the ridiculously poor system we have here just like everyone else.

It's not a fine line at all. You need to simply pass a law that states that your taxes will rise 3% (or so) for each benefit and everyone will get it. So if you make $100,000 a year you'll pay an extra $10,000 a year but get an extra month of vacation, a year or more of M/Paternity leave, universal healthcare, and an improved social security program as long as you work until 67. As Americans we feel that everyone shouldn't have these benefits though and that some are better than others. What you fail to realize is that when you live in a society that has all these benefits everyone is happier and healthier and it's so much nicer to live in.

Some of the benefits you're describing also come from unionisation. The way it works over here (and I suspect it works similarly elsewhere) is that benefits are split between government and corporations. Base benefits exist for all employees, and are forced by law (maternity leave, base number of vacation days and sick days per year, healthcare, etc.). Other benefits come from union conventions, and of course vary wildly based on the company, but include stuff like pension plans, extra vacations, specific salary ladders and so on.

I do agree that most of these measures are great for employees (I benefit from a number of them myself).

I don't think that the changes needed to the US' system can be done overnight. Look at the countries that do have such benefits. I do not know their histories specifically, but if it's anything like Canada, the process of implementing governmental benefits and unions is very slow. I don't see the USA simply turning around and starting to implement such benefits, although I do agree that it would be in their best interest

Another concern I have is that such changes tend to cause changes to a country's business types. Government benefits are usually easily accepted (actually forced), but unions in some cases aren't. For a corporation, the choice between cheap labour in some third world-ish country or fully unionised workers that demand benefits is sometimes easy to make. Over here, the proportion of manufacturing jobs, for instance, has been steadily dropping. That does tend to be somewhat balanced by knowledge economy, though.

 

[Craig234]

On this issue of balancing values with economics, the way that economics can subvert those values, the best quote I've seen is Robert Kennedy:

Too much and too long, we seem to have surrendered community excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our gross national product ... if we should judge America by that - counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them. It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.


Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans.

There's a lot to think about from that quote, to help remind people that there are more important things to remember are priorities for our business and government.

 

[Murloc]

For a corporation, the choice between cheap labour in some third world-ish country or fully unionised workers that demand benefits is sometimes easy to make. Over here, the proportion of manufacturing jobs, for instance, has been steadily dropping.

European corporations face the same choice.

The solution was already said:

I think another thing worth pointing out is that it seems that our American culture is too focused on cost cutting and competing with China or similar cheap labor markets. In Europe there are so many companies that specialize in something like the best ball bearings, the best drill bit, the best clock, etc and they charge a high price to get it. People pay these prices for quality and they can afford to pay and treat their employees fairly.

I can confirm this, it's the same here in my area.

The industry of developed countries has to be based on making something so good that no chinese is able to do the same.

 

[Craig234]

European corporations face the same choice.

The solution was already said:

I can confirm this, it's the same here in my area.

The industry of developed countries has to be based on making something so good that no chinese is able to do the same.

It might be there is no 'solution' to this.

The building blocks that have helped the US maintain its superiority have long been eroding.

The ratio of people getting educations at top US universities has greatly shifted to other nations.

China has had a little publicized but effective policy for decades of moving the higher levels of operations' training to their shores.

When a company wants to offshore there for 'cheap labor', the Chines government often requires that the company also move product design, marketing, and other senior level functions there as well as a condition for getting access to the cheap labor, building their skill sets. They are getting positioned for taking over *all* functions more and more.

As we slowly bleed capital in their direction, while squandering much of our own on things like military spending and a massively bloated class of wealthy people, it'll get worse.

There's not really that much in the way for this shift.

Thats why I've said for years I expect this is 'the Asian century', most likely just as the 20th was the American century taking over from Europe.

 

[randomrogue]

I could easily shift the topic to how the USA's power and economy is dwindling away but I'm really more interested in the quality of life. My family has only been in America for 3-4 generations and now with me leaving I'm going to need a damn good reason for my kids to move to the USA. School is a great reason. Family is another. However as far as working I can't imagine recommending that anyone work in the USA unless it's short term and only to make money. An IT job in Silicon Valley will pay about double what it does in London even with the weak dollar.

I can't stress this enough but living with people who take 2 weeks off for a trip to the Canary Islands, 2 weeks off for a ski trip to France or maybe a month off for time on the beaches of Vietnam, and a month off during the summer to spend time with family in the countryside is pretty amazing. Everyone is just so happy. Funny enough one of my friends didn't take any time off this winter and you could really see how miserable they were.

 

[chucky2]

How is it possible these companies over there can remain competitive with the people being gone so much? WTF do their people do where their company can not have them there for 1/6 of a year???

 

[randomrogue]

How is it possible these companies over there can remain competitive with the people being gone so much? WTF do their people do where their company can not have them there for 1/6 of a year???

Lets be realistic for a moment. Most people take 30 days off. Six weeks. Something like that. This is compared to the 2 weeks in the states. It's really not that difficult since most people tend to take a winter and/or spring break of 2 weeks plus a month off during the summer when everything closes. It's not difficult at all.

For some reason its hard to imagine people taking off so much time but it's equally hard for them to imagine working 96% of the year.

As you get older you get more vacation in Europe. So by the time you're in your 30's or 40's you're getting 8 weeks or so. Depends on the country.

 

[randomrogue]

On top of that you have National/Bank holidays. The USA is lagging behind on this as well. I'm not sure how sick days compare since I almost never get sick.

 

[chucky2]

Man I can't imagine our people as a group/team being gone that much, then add on holidays, and delivering things in a cohesive manner. It's one thing for one person to have another 2 or 3 weeks of vacation. It's another for everyone to have it. You've got one person coming back while another one has left, etc. etc. Just don't see how that is competitive with the way the US does it. I'm sure the people themselves are happier, but, not sure how the businesses are. Propose that here in the US and it's just another push for more outsourcing...

Chuck

 

[randomrogue]

http://www.mercer.com/press-releases/holiday-entitlements-around-the-world

The USA has zero paid public holidays by law. Is that really true? I used to always get like 4 or 5 a year. Either way they rank the USA dead last.

 

[randomrogue]

Man I can't imagine our people as a group/team being gone that much, then add on holidays, and delivering things in a cohesive manner. It's one thing for one person to have another 2 or 3 weeks of vacation. It's another for everyone to have it. You've got one person coming back while another one has left, etc. etc. Just don't see how that is competitive with the way the US does it. I'm sure the people themselves are happier, but, not sure how the businesses are. Propose that here in the US and it's just another push for more outsourcing...

Chuck

In a group environment you would simply plan for everyone to take time off if that's what was needed. Not a big deal. So everyone might simply take most of July and August off with an additional winter break.

 

[Zorba]

Men and women both get M/Paternity leave. It's not one, the other, or neither. It's both.

Unless both parents work for the same company, then it is shared time off of 12 weeks. Still most places don't pay it at all. And many require you to use all vacation/sick days for the leave, so when you come back you can't take a day off if you need to.

 

[randomrogue]

Unless both parents work for the same company, then it is shared time off of 12 weeks. Still most places don't pay it at all. And many require you to use all vacation/sick days for the leave, so when you come back you can't take a day off if you need to.

Just to clarify what I meant by that sentence, I have friends in Sweden that get like 1.5 years off from work. What they have done for both of their kids is let the mother take the first 6 months off, then the father the second 6 months, and then whatever for the rest of the time they have. That way they both get time at home to spend with the kid.

Now I'm not sure if all of Europe allows this kind of arrangement or how it works exactly but what I do know is that all my friends (and family) have taken time off, paid, after having a kid. This is compared to my friends and family in the states that are back at work before their vagina has even healed and I don't know a single guy that gets any time off.