USA Work and Quality of Life Issues

[chucky2]

In a group environment you would simply plan for everyone to take time off if that's what was needed. Not a big deal. So everyone might simply take most of July and August off with an additional winter break.

So the company just shuts down for 2 weeks during July?

 

[randomrogue]

So the company just shuts down for 2 weeks during July?

Have you ever been to Europe during the summer? Pretty much the whole continent shuts down for much of July and August.

 

[Craig234]

So the company just shuts down for 2 weeks during July?

Like other companies do.

Works out fine and is better for people.

You can make the US more like Europe or more like China.

Which do you prefer for the people?

 

[chucky2]

I'm just not grasping this then. Here in our IT shop we constantly are putting out projects, both for maintenance and for enhancing. How can a company that not only has to compete internationally and also deliver things to compete and stay afloat nationally just stop doing business for two months? You'd just add 2 months to the timeline? From a business perspective that sounds...really bad...

 

[chucky2]

Like other companies do.

Works out fine and is better for people.

You can make the US more like Europe or more like China.

Which do you prefer for the people?

Depends...some industries need to become more like China to compete, some may be fine taking the two months off like EU.

 

[randomrogue]

I'm just not grasping this then. Here in our IT shop we constantly are putting out projects, both for maintenance and for enhancing. How can a company that not only has to compete internationally and also deliver things to compete and stay afloat nationally just stop doing business for two months? You'd just add 2 months to the timeline? From a business perspective that sounds...really bad...

You're not getting it since you've never been exposed to it. Let me put it in terms you might have experienced and never thought about.

Have you ever ordered something from Europe (a part, a machine, paperwork) and they told you it wouldn't be available until September? That's because they closed. It's implied and understood.

It's sometimes annoying since they replay the same stupid afternoon talk shows for 7 weeks during the summer. Their "best of". You get nothing new until everyone gets back.

Lots of restaurants and shops are just closed with a sign on the door saying "Will be back the week of..."

The reason it's not a problem is because everyone is closed. It's not even optional. You aren't even allowed to bank holiday days. They tell you to get out. I remember when I got my first job in Europe I was a teenager and didn't know the system so one day my boss came to me with my check and there was a lump sum of vacation pay in there since I was an hourly employee. She basically told me to get out and go on vacation. So I spent a month Interrailing. Then came home to a concert schedule and some R/R before going back to work. Was great.

 

[chucky2]

Who is manning the systems while everyone is on vaca? How are they delivering projects to beat their competitors while they're slipping the project 2 months to sit on the beach? I do not see how this sets up their international business to compete with competitors from say over here.

Also..WhoTF pays for the vaca? You're telling me your business up and cut you a multi-week check to go on vacation? Exactly where are they getting that money from?

 

[Craig234]

Well, for one thing, European salaries tend to be lower than American; For another, CEO salaries are much lower.

 

[ivwshane]

Well, for one thing, European salaries tend to be lower than American; For another, CEO salaries are much lower.

What are you basing this info on? I can agree on higher CEO pay but how do you compare salaries across different countries? Median income? Average? Job A v job A?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Who is manning the systems while everyone is on vaca? How are they delivering projects to beat their competitors while they're slipping the project 2 months to sit on the beach? I do not see how this sets up their international business to compete with competitors from say over here.

It sounds like you are questioning if this actually happens. A casual google search will verify that.

Also..WhoTF pays for the vaca?

That is a good question, I think the company does, but I'll let those that have firsthand experience answer.

You're telling me your business up and cut you a multi-week check to go on vacation?

Yes, that is exactly what he is telling you.

Exactly where are they getting that money from?

So, knowing that it actually happens regularly we can only to assume that that because everyone there does it the loss of productivity is not a big hit and is made up for by the improved efficiency from happy workers.

I know, it is simply incredulous that a corporation would treat people with a tiny scrap of respect. As Americans we have not seen that in most of our lifetimes, and have been conditioned to believe that it is actually immoral. Perhaps the American corporations lied you?

 

[chucky2]

It sounds like you are questioning if this actually happens. A casual google search will verify that.

Not really. Just amazed that an entire country goes on vacation at once. For a while it was sounding like they got 6 weeks or whatever to take whenever they wanted. This to me sounds more like when factories here go on planned shutdown.

So, knowing that it actually happens regularly we can only to assume that that because everyone there does it the loss of productivity is not a big hit and is made up for by the improved efficiency from happy workers.

I wouldn't stretch it that far. Maybe more like everyone take the hit so their competitors aren't getting ahead. I do wonder how this affects businesses that have to compete on the international scene...if it's the same deal for those companies as well.

I know, it is simply incredulous that a corporation would treat people with a tiny scrap of respect. As Americans we have not seen that in most of our lifetimes, and have been conditioned to believe that it is actually immoral. Perhaps the American corporations lied you?

How would they lie to me? I have 4 weeks combined of time off per year, to use when I see fit. WhyTF would I expect to take a month off on the companies dime? Why would me taking time off = the company fund that? Sounds...immoral. Leeching from someone else for your own benefit. So...welfare-like...

 

[randomrogue]

Well you have collective bargaining. Unions. You pay a very small amount to the unions, pay higher taxes, and get lower salaries than in the USA for many higher level positions (if not all). The laws dictate that everyone is paying for this so you do not have one company that you're competing with that's running a sweatshop. There are not the huge salary ranges. So while in the USA you have people who make $10,000 a year and people who make $120,000 a year in Europe it's more like the vast majority make between $45,000 and $75,000 a year. I made all those numbers up so it's more to make a point. It's 3:30am and I don't want to look up exact figures. Where I live though almost everyone makes between $3800-$5400 a month. Not a huge range. I do have a couple friends who make more but I don't know anyone who makes less. It's probably worth noting that I'm not talking about Southern Europe. The economies of Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Greece are a different thing altogether, one I don't fully understand, and definitely not something to aspire too. It's also worth nothing that since you can work anywhere in the EU there are many sectors where people commute across a nearby border since a salary can literally double. I have a friend in Denmark who is a civil engineer and he makes twice what he would make in Sweden which is only 2 train stations away for him. I have another friend who works in Switzerland and he makes several multiples of what he would make in Italy doing the same job. You can get ahead a bit if you commute across these borders much like people do in San Diego/Mexico and similar locations. You take advantage of the lower costs of living in one location but higher salaries nearby.

Nothing is free. The thing here is that while you make less money you get more benefits. These benefits directly translate to a higher standard of living. The amount of money that people make is enough to cover all your expenses plus vacations and toys and then of course you have a respectable pension coming your way if you work until 65ish.

My parent's friends are all retired and living very comfortably. In many cases the unions came to them when the global recession hit and offered to let them retire early for either the same pension or a small hit. This was great for them and saved the unions money since they then hired new and younger employees. Plus they changed the pension system for these younger employees and reduced their benefits to factor in the change in revenue due to the recession. It's still good but the point is that they are constantly changing the system rather than our Social Security program that is barely viable.

As far as being competitive you have to remember that there is a difference in attitude over here. Europeans have no interest in working their knuckles to the bone to make an extra penny and compete with a guy in Bangladesh or China making $0.13 an hour. They for the most part choose to simply make better products and sell them at a higher price. Countries here might export natural resources, or yachts, or beer, pharmaceuticals, military/machine/industrial parts, etc and aren't interested in trying to compete with the low quality Chinese market. I'm not an expert but I'd assume that a company like Cisco or Oracle would operate different projects in Europe than they would in other parts of the world.

 

[chucky2]

That would seem to work well in a closed system, where everyone is used to socialized....everything. I wonder how these EU countries are going to compete with China in 40 years when it is delivering the same - or, close enough - technology/goods at 1/5th of the cost. It would seem to me that a society indoctrinated in kicking back and able to live the good life in their closed system is going to potentially come upon a rude awakening one day.

But...kudos to them. If the US would stay closed and just buy our own sh1t, we could pull something like this off too. Except, we have PeopleOfWalmart disease.

Chuck

 

[ivwshane]

That would seem to work well in a closed system, where everyone is used to socialized....everything. I wonder how these EU countries are going to compete with China in 40 years when it is delivering the same - or, close enough - technology/goods at 1/5th of the cost. It would seem to me that a society indoctrinated in kicking back and able to live the good life in their closed system is going to potentially come upon a rude awakening one day.

But...kudos to them. If the US would stay closed and just buy our own sh1t, we could pull something like this off too. Except, we have PeopleOfWalmart disease.

Chuck

In 40 years chinas cost of living will have risen by a lot, I would suspect that their impact on Europe would be no different than it is now.

 

[chucky2]

In 40 years chinas cost of living will have risen by a lot, I would suspect that their impact on Europe would be no different than it is now.

You are absolutely right. It'll have gone from 1/10th and a POS part to 1/5th or 1/4th and good enough to sell out the EU companies they favor now.

 

[randomrogue]

The USA will continue to use the China excuse for everything. China is its own thing and the only reason we're even affected by them is because we buy all their low priced / low quality shit.

What do Americans do with all their extra money? They save it for retirement. So basically what you have is a difference in taxes paid and income earned and all that extra income is saved for retirement. Alternatively you could live like the Europeans but that's considered socialist or communist and you never live a life with benefits.

 

[SMOGZINN]

How would they lie to me? I have 4 weeks combined of time off per year, to use when I see fit. WhyTF would I expect to take a month off on the companies dime? Why would me taking time off = the company fund that? Sounds...immoral. Leeching from someone else for your own benefit. So...welfare-like...

The same reason you take money from them every month. That really cuts into their profit also, but you find that acceptable. You are stuck in the laborer mentality. One cent per bolt turned.

 

[randomrogue]

So I thought I'd actually continue with another point. I would like some real numbers though from those of you with kids in daycare. How much do you pay?

My friends pay a pretty hefty portion of their salary in the USA. One of my friends actually was trying to do the math on whether it made sense for his wife to stay home or work and it turned out it was cheaper for her to stay home and take care of the kids since she couldn't generate enough income to justify the cost of daycare. In the end though they took the "loss" since she wanted to work. To be fair the difference was only a couple hundred dollars a month and her husband made $150,000 a year. Either way daycare costs them roughly $1500 a month for each of their 2 kids. So you need to make a ton of money.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/may/21/child-care-costs-compared-britain

So lets now think about that extra income you make working in the USA and the lower taxes. Now are you not only not getting M/Paternity leave but you're also paying 25% of your income for daycare vs the maybe 4%, 5% or 10% that many are paying in Europe. My friends pay a few hundred dollars a month for daycare for their three kids. It's absurdly affordable and a good tax benefit.

 

[chucky2]

The same reason you take money from them every month. That really cuts into their profit also, but you find that acceptable. You are stuck in the laborer mentality. One cent per bolt turned.

I find it acceptable because I do work for them, and in return, they pay me for that work. So, Yes, I and They find it acceptable...work for money. Why would a business pay its people to not work, other than so the employee has enough time off to stay mentally sane and motivated?

It seems to me it is the same thing, except one society lets the business and employee figure out what the time off will be, and whether it'll be paid or not, and another society just tells the business you'll jack up your prices and/or reduce your profits so as to give employees large amounts of paid time off.

One of these ways sounds like the best way for international competition, another of these ways sounds like the best way for a closed off society (however large).

Chuck

 

[randomrogue]

I find it acceptable because I do work for them, and in return, they pay me for that work. So, Yes, I and They find it acceptable...work for money. Why would a business pay its people to not work, other than so the employee has enough time off to stay mentally sane and motivated?

It seems to me it is the same thing, except one society lets the business and employee figure out what the time off will be, and whether it'll be paid or not, and another society just tells the business you'll jack up your prices and/or reduce your profits so as to give employees large amounts of paid time off.

One of these ways sounds like the best way for international competition, another of these ways sounds like the best way for a closed off society (however large).

Chuck

Try to look at this from a quality of life point of view.

Why would a business pay its people to not work, other than so the employee has enough time off to stay mentally sane and motivated?

Is that really what you think the parameters should be? As long as the employee is sane and works hard all is well in the world?

 

[CycloWizard]

Let me state first that I'm not a woman lol. I'm a man who is well educated, has owned stakes in two companies, and was rich before he turned 30 through hard work. The American dream right?

What good is all this money if you can't take the time off to enjoy it? This notion that you can negotiate for more time off is very unrealistic. I'm sorry but if you're valuable then they need you there and if you're not valuable they'll just replace you. I've had employees who, by our cultural standards, tried to "hold us hostage" and although we gave them what they wanted we also fired them as soon as possible. Yep you can get your vacation and you can get your extra pay at the threat of leaving but we weren't going to take that shit for long. We generally hired their replacement immediately. They knew it since we made them train them. Writing was on the wall and they're thinking "Ok now I need to stop asking for so much and I'll be ok" but it's too late. They were fired the moment they tried that shit even if it took us 3 years to get them out the door. That's how the real corporate America works. When the recession hit I had to cut my overhead fast and the first people to go were the "greedy" ones who "held us hostage".

Eventually I woke up. This elitist and capitalistic idea seems great when you're in the bubble and not seeing outside of it but once you see the other side it becomes clear that we're running America into the ground. You can't truly understand how bad our system is until you put it side by side with someone elses system. My stack of medical paperwork that I was constantly having to deal with through my Health Savings Plan and Insurance company vs just going to the doctor and paying $20 or whatever it costs and getting things done without them trying to bill me for $5000 a month later? Wow which one is better? My 2 weeks of vacation that is really less since it had to be during the Christmas/New Years holiday or my multiple vacations a year? Over a year of maternity leave vs NOTHING in most of the USA?

If you would like to learn a little about negotiation science (I recommend this book) then you would see that in the end a negotiated solution is one in which both sides strive to protect their own interests. In the end, if your company needs you, then they will do anything you ask of them: they have no choice. The exception is when your demands outweigh the potential benefits to the company; then, the company's best step forward is to cut their losses and move in a different direction leaving you free to do the same.

I have worked in Europe but was dissatisfied with the work ethic: it was extremely difficult to get anything done in a timely manner. As someone who enjoys what I do, it was too frustrating to constantly run into barriers to progress because someone was taking a 2-hour lunch break, watching football, or whatever rather than getting stuff done. While I did enjoy taking coffee breaks, long lunches, and tea time at first, the novelty wore off after a week or two when deadlines weren't being met. The bottom line is that the laid-back lifestyle is not for everyone. Trying to legislate it is a surefire way to cripple any advantage America has left in productivity. Whether you like the American system or not, it allows those willing to work hard a chance to better themselves and, by association, those around them. Legislation trying to manipulate this system is, in my opinion, a big reason for the present state of affairs today wherein income distributions are skewed; rising minimum wages engulf the wages of those who had worked their way up to the next rung on the ladder; the minimum cost of living under government mandates (health/auto insurance, taxes, etc.) keeps those at the bottom at the bottom. Below some level of gross income, one does not really have a chance to better himself by saving, investing, or buying property. Increasing the minimum cost of living increases the number of people in this category.

 

[chucky2]

Try to look at this from a quality of life point of view.

Why would a business pay its people to not work, other than so the employee has enough time off to stay mentally sane and motivated?

Is that really what you think the parameters should be? As long as the employee is sane and works hard all is well in the world?

From a business perspective, Yes.

From that employees perspective, No.

Since it is the businesses money being spent, I'd think the businesses might have some kind of say in it. Unless of course the society they operate in dictates to them they'll spend the money regardless if they like it or not, and/or, if the business Leadership itself supports these long vacations.

I just find it very interesting so many take so much time off all at once. Like a entire country just goes on a huge vacation, rather than employees bargaining for extra vacation yet reduced wages, and then just taking the vaca whenever they want (so it's all spread out rather than mass forced).

What do the low wage peons do? Still work or do they too get this long paid break?

Chuck

 

[randomrogue]

If you would like to learn a little about negotiation science (I recommend this book) then you would see that in the end a negotiated solution is one in which both sides strive to protect their own interests. In the end, if your company needs you, then they will do anything you ask of them: they have no choice. The exception is when your demands outweigh the potential benefits to the company; then, the company's best step forward is to cut their losses and move in a different direction leaving you free to do the same.

I have worked in Europe but was dissatisfied with the work ethic: it was extremely difficult to get anything done in a timely manner. As someone who enjoys what I do, it was too frustrating to constantly run into barriers to progress because someone was taking a 2-hour lunch break, watching football, or whatever rather than getting stuff done. While I did enjoy taking coffee breaks, long lunches, and tea time at first, the novelty wore off after a week or two when deadlines weren't being met. The bottom line is that the laid-back lifestyle is not for everyone. Trying to legislate it is a surefire way to cripple any advantage America has left in productivity. Whether you like the American system or not, it allows those willing to work hard a chance to better themselves and, by association, those around them. Legislation trying to manipulate this system is, in my opinion, a big reason for the present state of affairs today wherein income distributions are skewed; rising minimum wages engulf the wages of those who had worked their way up to the next rung on the ladder; the minimum cost of living under government mandates (health/auto insurance, taxes, etc.) keeps those at the bottom at the bottom. Below some level of gross income, one does not really have a chance to better himself by saving, investing, or buying property. Increasing the minimum cost of living increases the number of people in this category.

I left Europe the first time for the reasons you stated above. At least partially. I quit my job and then left a little bit later. Things have changed though in the last 20 years. People actually meet deadlines lol. However it's nice to come in and have a nice cup of coffee with your coworkers everyday rather than just work, work, work.

I can turn your logic around on you and say that if you like the American work ethic it's much easier to simply negotiate a job in Europe where you can work like that. Find an international corporation. The great thing though is that you can still get the benefits. So yes you can be productive and not have to work at a place where these asshats work 3 hours a day and drink coffee for 5 but you can also get the benefits that make your standard of living much higher.

Not going to argue with you about work ethic though. As an American I need that. It's part of who I am. I don't like the thought of spending time at work, a huge part of my life, and not getting things done. However I also don't like being a slave to the machine and living my life to work.

Legislation trying to manipulate this system is, in my opinion, a big reason for the present state of affairs today wherein income distributions are skewed; rising minimum wages engulf the wages of those who had worked their way up to the next rung on the ladder; the minimum cost of living under government mandates (health/auto insurance, taxes, etc.) keeps those at the bottom at the bottom. Below some level of gross income, one does not really have a chance to better himself by saving, investing, or buying property. Increasing the minimum cost of living increases the number of people in this category.

I disagree here. Minimum wage is irrelevant unless you're running a sweatshop or something completely lacking in a skill set. If you were making $5/hr and they raised the minimum wage to $7/hr then it makes very little difference to anyone. Making $7/hr is still a slave wage and in my opinion reserved for 16 year olds. I would never dream of paying an adult that kind of wage. Even a $10/hr minimum wage is only pocket change and although it rises above the poverty line it doesn't rise above the "living wage" line in many parts of the country. It's about half of what you need to get to the median income.

Look at the costs of living and look at how people fail to get out of poverty. Health care costs are a huge factor and these bills make up 60% of all bankruptcies. So is a lack of education. In Europe it's all free or very cheap since your taxes pay for it.

 

[chucky2]

It's not "free" though. Taxes (and debt) pay for it. I do not want to pay for someone elses day care. They wanted kids, well, now they've got them. They can pay for their own decision.

 

[randomrogue]

It's not "free" though. Taxes (and debt) pay for it. I do not want to pay for someone elses day care. They wanted kids, well, now they've got them. They can pay for their own decision.

You have to live in a society with them though. Healthier parents means healthier children. Imagine if our ghettos had mothers/fathers who were there to raise their children for the first year of their lives, got time off to spend time with them, could afford to leave them in a nice day care, got the health care they needed, and could send them to college. Do you think we would still have these terrible ghettos? It's probably not so simple but telling people that they shouldn't have kids unless they can afford $15,000 a year in daycare is completely unrealistic.