Upcoming/possible games using Mantle

[zlatan]

Maybe you're right, but it hasn't stopped developers from implementing it. Usually they make the game with both an IC and DC rendering path..

Some programmer say DC is a solution and others say a new API is better. And there are developers who tried both and they said DC is a failure. And as you can see D3D12 won't use DC, it will use the same independent CB rendering solution what Mantle provides for the PC industry.

Are you kidding me? BF4 Mantle had tremendous growing pains and lots of issues. For some people, it still has lots of problems.

No, I'm not kidding. BF4 is actually a good Mantle title, if the VRAM won't limit the card.

Who are these developers?

I won't name them.

PC gaming is growing, not shrinking, and the PC platform is more profitable than the console platform, as there is less operating overhead due to no royalties and digital distribution..

If anything, more developers are doing multiplatform releases with the PC than ever before.

~85 percent of our profits comes from Xbox 360 and PS3. So please understand my skepticism about market researches.

 

[desprado]

Some programmer say DC is a solution and others say a new API is better. And there are developers who tried both and they said DC is a failure. And as you can see D3D12 won't use DC, it will use the same independent CB rendering solution what Mantle provides for the PC industry.



No, I'm not kidding. BF4 is actually a good Mantle title, if the VRAM won't limit the card.



I won't name them.



~85 percent of our profits comes from Xbox 360 and PS3. So please understand my skepticism about market researches.

Bro if u cannot name or justify ur post than dont even brother posting in this section.

Infraction issued for inflammatory language.
-- stahlhart

 

[3DVagabond]

never mind

 

[zlatan]

Bro if u cannot name or justify ur post than dont even brother posting in this section.

OK. Bye from everyone. Now I understand why my friend said that this forum is not for developers.

 

[Carfax83]

And if you look at the CPU benchmark, they actually downclocked that i7 3770k from 4.6 ghz to 1.8 ghz. And the end result with Mantle enabled was a very marginal decrease in performance, whereas the DX11.1 path got litterally half the performance even for Nvidia.

That's a contrived scenario if there ever was one. Yes, it does demonstrate Mantle's much lower overhead and greater parallelism, but it's not realistic..

The fact is that the DX11.1 path isn't limiting the GTX 780 Ti's performance under ordinary circumstances..

If they would have tested the CPU clock speeds at stock rather than underclocked, then it would have been a more realistic test imo..

 

[Carfax83]

Some programmer say DC is a solution and others say a new API is better. And there are developers who tried both and they said DC is a failure. And as you can see D3D12 won't use DC, it will use the same independent CB rendering solution what Mantle provides for the PC industry.

I have no doubt that Mantle is superior to DC, but the point I was making, is that DC isn't a failure and obviously has merit otherwise developers wouldn't be using it.

It can't produce the kind of performance gains that Mantle can, but it can get close enough for it to matter.. Case in point, here are the Civ V benchmarks from the HD 7970 review:

At 1600p 4x MSAA, the HD 7970 is faster than the GTX 580 as the test is GPU bottlenecked at those settings. But at 1050p, the game is much more CPU bottlenecked and the GTX 580 is able to pull ahead by virtue of being able to use DC, which the Radeon cannot use:

No, I'm not kidding. BF4 is actually a good Mantle title, if the VRAM won't limit the card.

Why does the Mantle path use more VRAM?

I won't name them.

What difference does it make? Until we see big developers and publishers abandoning PC, then it's clearly an incorrect statement.

~85 percent of our profits comes from Xbox 360 and PS3. So please understand my skepticism about market researches.

PS3 and Xbox 360 are still very relevant unfortunately due to their massive install base. But, quite a few developers are already abandoning those platforms as they get ready to fully embrace next gen.

AC Unity, the Division, Batman Arkham Knight, Witcher 3, Lords of the Fallen are just some of the titles that have abandoned the last gen consoles..

But they haven't abandoned PC..

 

[Noctifer616]

Why does the Mantle path use more VRAM?

According to a post on the OCUK forum it's due to preloading texture. Eats away more VRAM than DX that doesn't use. However, the same issue exists in Thief only at 4k.

https://twitter.com/repi/status/483650474701512704

I guess we have to wait and see how future FB3 games will work.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Can't really blame them. Any GPU with only 1gb available isn't going to have the grunt to run the game well in mantle or dx11.

 

[Headfoot]

4 titles are totally BS
Sims 4(Should be announced before Bf4 hardline and Dragon age because this game is releasing before that)
Dying light conformed Nvidia game work title which is state in Nvidia website
GTA V which also state in Nvidia website
COD AF big no and it wont happen ever not even in dreams.


That chart is totally BS and AMD did not announce any thing but they conformed that Since the launch of Mantle it will support 9 games only like DX11 did when it was launch.

Show me where it says GTA V doesn't use Mantle. Show me where it says a developer can't use both Mantle and GameWorks. Show me literally any support for your position, whatsoever.

Now my opinion is that because they are doing the enhanced GTAV for Xbone/PS4 they likely will be utilizing those APIs and as many threads as they can, making Mantle within reasonable reach. I'd say its more likely than not that they do it if there is a rumor that they are. Could be that they are just investigating the possibility and the rumor mill got it wrong. Of course, this is only speculation. I don't parade around lording my opinion as fact. I would love Mantle GTAV, 4 was terrible on CPUs.

 

[Noctifer616]

Show me where it says GTA V doesn't use Mantle. Show me where it says a developer can't use both Mantle and GameWorks. Show me literally any support for your position, whatsoever.

Star Citizen will use both Mantle and support for GPU PhysX.

http://physxinfo.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/citizen.jpg

So no, you are right, a game could have both game works and mantle.

 

[monstercameron]

OK. Bye from everyone. Now I understand why my friend said that this forum is not for developers.

ignore the trolls, some of us just want a discussion.

 

[desprado]

Show me where it says GTA V doesn't use Mantle. Show me where it says a developer can't use both Mantle and GameWorks. Show me literally any support for your position, whatsoever.

Now my opinion is that because they are doing the enhanced GTAV for Xbone/PS4 they likely will be utilizing those APIs and as many threads as they can, making Mantle within reasonable reach. I'd say its more likely than not that they do it if there is a rumor that they are. Could be that they are just investigating the possibility and the rumor mill got it wrong. Of course, this is only speculation. I don't parade around lording my opinion as fact. I would love Mantle GTAV, 4 was terrible on CPUs.

U did not read or see Richard Huddy interview?If u did not i suggest u read or see that interview that they had with Pcper.

He said that Nvidia dont allow developers to optimize game for AMD or use AMD tech if that game is Nvidia sponsored which written in Nvidia contract and if u do both AMD and developers will have law suit.

 

[3DVagabond]

U did not read or see Richard Huddy interview?If u did not i suggest u read or see that interview that they had with Pcper.

He said that Nvidia dont allow developers to optimize game for AMD or use AMD tech if that game is Nvidia sponsored which written in Nvidia contract and if u do both AMD and developers will have law suit.

You've misinterpreted what was said. What was said is that they can't share any of nVidia's code with AMD so they can optimize their drivers to it.

 

[stahlhart]

ignore the trolls, some of us just want a discussion.

Keep your drama to yourself, and stay on topic.
-- stahlhart

 

[Headfoot]

U did not read or see Richard Huddy interview?If u did not i suggest u read or see that interview that they had with Pcper.

He said that Nvidia dont allow developers to optimize game for AMD or use AMD tech if that game is Nvidia sponsored which written in Nvidia contract and if u do both AMD and developers will have law suit.

Star Citizen uses both. You're wrong.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I have no doubt that Mantle is superior to DC, but the point I was making, is that DC isn't a failure and obviously has merit otherwise developers wouldn't be using it.

It can't produce the kind of performance gains that Mantle can, but it can get close enough for it to matter.. Case in point, here are the Civ V benchmarks from the HD 7970 review:

At 1600p 4x MSAA, the HD 7970 is faster than the GTX 580 as the test is GPU bottlenecked at those settings. But at 1050p, the game is much more CPU bottlenecked and the GTX 580 is able to pull ahead by virtue of being able to use DC, which the Radeon cannot use:

Why does the Mantle path use more VRAM?

What difference does it make? Until we see big developers and publishers abandoning PC, then it's clearly an incorrect statement.

PS3 and Xbox 360 are still very relevant unfortunately due to their massive install base. But, quite a few developers are already abandoning those platforms as they get ready to fully embrace next gen.

AC Unity, the Division, Batman Arkham Knight, Witcher 3, Lords of the Fallen are just some of the titles that have abandoned the last gen consoles..

But they haven't abandoned PC..

Using 7970 launch review slides to talk about AMD driver performance compared to nvidia 2 years later is almost as inexcusable as the 7970 launch drivers were themselves...

 

[sontin]

The number one reason why Mantle born is D3D11 limits the game development. The problem is that a high-level graphics API force us a very bad programing model. I try to explain this simple. You write a code, and it may not work very well. You try to profile it to track down what is the problem, but the graphics driver is actually a limiting factor, because you can't see what happens in the driver (It's a black box). If you are lucky enough, you may find a solution in two weeks, but there is a huge chance that the problem is driver releated, and fixing that is may take one month or more. Now the tricky part is the code plus the driver may have more than one problem, so even if you fix one, than another will show up, and that's a another wasted month.
Mantle make this elegant. Actually this API is just executing shaders, and that's all. This will lead to a very good, console-style programing model, because what was in the driver in D3D, is now in the engine, so I perfectly see what's the problem with a code without any help (nV/Intel/AMD). And every problem is fixable with very little effort.

And Mantle runs only on certain AMD hardware. That is less than <20% of the whole market.
The question is: Can you afford to ignore the non Mantle market? I hope so because otherwise praising a solution to a non existing problem sounds more like marketing.

Several developers are just doing console exclusive titles now, because they are tired of optimizing for a black box. Many customers just say this and that on PC are just badly optimized, but in the other hand, how do I optimize, when I don't able to profile and track down the problems?

What? Only paid and child companies from the console manufactures are only selling their games on consoles. Every other company will release a PC version. Even EA is backpedalling with their sports series like Fifa.

 

[desprado]

Star Citizen uses both. You're wrong.

Yes because Star Citizen is not AMD evolved or Nvidia sponsored.
I would say again u should watch that interview as i stated above it will be very helpful for u.
Peace.

 

[Carfax83]

Using 7970 launch review slides to talk about AMD driver performance compared to nvidia 2 years later is almost as inexcusable as the 7970 launch drivers were themselves...

The reason I used that review is because it showed both a GPU and CPU limited benchmarks with Civ 5. In the GPU limited benchmark, the HD 7970 was faster, but in the CPU limited benchmark, the GTX 580 had higher performance which demonstrates the effect of DX11 multithreading..

The latest Civ 5 benchmark on Anandtech between the HD 7970 with mature drivers and the GTX 580 @ 1080p max settings showed the HD 7970 with a measly 3 FPS lead..

So while Mantle is undoubtedly superior to using DX11 multithreading, the latter is still good enough to remove most of the CPU bottlenecking.. Which is why, despite what zlatan said, developers are still using it.

 

[Skurge]

The reason I used that review is because it showed both a GPU and CPU limited benchmarks with Civ 5. In the GPU limited benchmark, the HD 7970 was faster, but in the CPU limited benchmark, the GTX 580 had higher performance which demonstrates the effect of DX11 multithreading..

The latest Civ 5 benchmark on Anandtech between the HD 7970 with mature drivers and the GTX 580 @ 1080p max settings showed the HD 7970 with a measly 3 FPS lead..

So while Mantle is undoubtedly superior to using DX11 multithreading, the latter is still good enough to remove most of the CPU bottlenecking.. Which is why, despite what zlatan said, developers are still using it.

680 has an equally small lead over the 7970GE. I don't see what you are saying here.

 

[Carfax83]

680 has an equally small lead over the 7970GE. I don't see what you are saying here.

I always have to explain this about two or three times I swear.. :\

The performance boost derived from DX11 multithreading only manifests itself in CPU limited scenarios. Whether a system is CPU limited or not depends on several factors such as IQ settings, resolution, and how powerful the GPU is.

At 1080p with 4x MSAA the GTX 680 is more GPU limited, which is why the performance gain is only 6%. But when you look at a more powerful card like the GTX 780, the performance gain over the 7970 GE is 46%.

The DX11 multithreading has a bigger impact on the GTX 780 because it's the most CPU limited card in that assortment..

 

[AtenRa]

I always have to explain this about two or three times I swear.. :\

The performance boost derived from DX11 multithreading only manifests itself in CPU limited scenarios. Whether a system is CPU limited or not depends on several factors such as IQ settings, resolution, and how powerful the GPU is.

At 1080p with 4x MSAA the GTX 680 is more GPU limited, which is why the performance gain is only 6%. But when you look at a more powerful card like the GTX 780, the performance gain over the 7970 GE is 46%.

The DX11 multithreading has a bigger impact on the GTX 780 because it's the most CPU limited card in that assortment..

Most probable has to do with faster performance of the ROPs and more TMUs plus more compute of the 780 than DX multithreading.

 

[Gloomy]

7970 has memory clocked at 1375. The 7970Ghz has memory clocked at 1500. The 7970 has memory clocked 92% as fast as a 7970GHz.

Consequently, it scores 90% of what a 7970Ghz does. Fudging it a little to account for the slight core clockspeed difference and benchmark variance, you can clearly see the biggest bottleneck in the Tahiti based GPUs on that graph isn't whatever CPU they used, but rather the GPU memory clock speed. Well you can't, obviously, because despite having that chart saved in your "AMD FUD" bookmarks group and posting it every chance you get it is pretty clear that you have never looked at it critically.

Please stop posting it, I'm tired of seeing it. If your obsession with DX11's abortive multithreading extension is going to resurge despite Microsoft themselves saying it was a failure (nevermind a developer in this very thread saying it is not very useful) then you are going to need new material.

 

[Skurge]

I always have to explain this about two or three times I swear.. :\

The performance boost derived from DX11 multithreading only manifests itself in CPU limited scenarios. Whether a system is CPU limited or not depends on several factors such as IQ settings, resolution, and how powerful the GPU is.

At 1080p with 4x MSAA the GTX 680 is more GPU limited, which is why the performance gain is only 6%. But when you look at a more powerful card like the GTX 780, the performance gain over the 7970 GE is 46%.

The DX11 multithreading has a bigger impact on the GTX 780 because it's the most CPU limited card in that assortment..

7970GE should not be that much faster than 7970 using that logic. The performance difference between the 680 and the 670 is the same as the 7970GE and the 7970.

It's easy to claim the 780 is faster cause of MT, but until you can compare it with a 290 in that game the gap is similar. I don't think you can make that conclusion.

 

[desprado]

7970GE should not be that much faster than 7970 using that logic. The performance difference between the 680 and the 670 is the same as the 7970GE and the 7970.

It's easy to claim the 780 is faster cause of MT, but until you can compare it with a 290 in that game the gap is similar. I don't think you can make that conclusion.

In short he is saying Nvidia will totally dominate if game uses Multi threading and that we seen in BF4 and Battlefield Hardline
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgamegpu.ru%2Faction-%2F-fps-%2F-tps%2Fbattlefield-hardline-beta-test-gpu.html&edit-text=&act=url]
Just look at cpu usage by of both companies than u will know the difference.