Upcoming/possible games using Mantle

[Carfax83]

And again, it's not just WoW that has terrible performance, just look at other MMORPGs, you will find the same issues in locations with a high amount of players engaged in combat.

A lot of those performance issues could be due to network lag as well..

 

[Carfax83]

If DX is a POS, should we not want a better API!

DX11 isn't a POS. DX11 hasn't even been fully exploited by game developers until now. AMD doesn't even support the main performance enhancing feature of DX11!

Mantle is great and useful I admit, but DX11 has not limited game development and it performs well when used properly. Look at the latest PC games on the horizon. Witcher 3, Dragon Age Inquisition, Batman Arkham Knight etcetera are all huge games with plenty of detail and density and they are all DX11..

 

[3DVagabond]

DX11 isn't a POS. DX11 hasn't even been fully exploited by game developers until now. AMD doesn't even support the main performance enhancing feature of DX11!

Mantle is great and useful I admit, but DX11 has not limited game development and it performs well when used properly. Look at the latest PC games on the horizon. Witcher 3, Dragon Age Inquisition, Batman Arkham Knight etcetera are all huge games with plenty of detail and density and they are all DX11..

Have you not read what devs had to say about DX? They don't agree with your assesment that DX11 hasn't limited game development. That's why are they bothering with DX12? The main performance enhancing feature you speak of is too hard to implement and only marginally effective. That's why almost no games use it. It still relies too much on a single thread.

Once Mantle was released it was obvious just how bad DX11 is.

 

[desprado]

DX11 isn't a POS. DX11 hasn't even been fully exploited by game developers until now. AMD doesn't even support the main performance enhancing feature of DX11!

Mantle is great and useful I admit, but DX11 has not limited game development and it performs well when used properly. Look at the latest PC games on the horizon. Witcher 3, Dragon Age Inquisition, Batman Arkham Knight etcetera are all huge games with plenty of detail and density and they are all DX11..

AMD have big reason not support to support main performance enhancing feature of DX11.

 

[3DVagabond]

AMD have big reason not support to support main performance enhancing feature of DX11.

Interesting how GE titles support it though.

 

[monstercameron]

AMD have big reason not support to support main performance enhancing feature of DX11.

If you are insinuating that it is a difficult api to implement and take advantage then that is understandable but if it is because of "mantle" I cant help but sigh...

 

[desprado]

Have you not read what devs had to say about DX? They don't agree with your assesment that DX11 hasn't limited game development. That's why are they bothering with DX12? The main performance enhancing feature you speak of is too hard to implement and only marginally effective. That's why almost no games use it. It still relies too much on a single thread.

Once Mantle was released it was obvious just how bad DX11 is.

What?
Nvidia Dx11>Better than Mantle on my PC and it has a big difference.
AMD try to make Dx11 look bad and it failed.I remember those people who said that it Mantle will provide more than 50% of boost and know what it is not even 10% of improvement for high end user.So in short in Nvidia has proved that u can provide much improved performance through Drivers if u are willing to do it.

 

[Carfax83]

Have you not read what devs had to say about DX? They don't agree with your assesment that DX11 hasn't limited game development.

Some devs not all, otherwise Mantle would be universally adopted.

That's why are they bothering with DX12?

I never said DX11 was perfect. Only that it wasn't a POS, and that it wasn't limiting game development. Games are bigger and better than ever before..

The main performance enhancing feature you speak of is too hard to implement and only marginally effective.

This only applies to AMD. It's been very effective on NVidia hardware..

That's why almost no games use it. It still relies too much on a single thread.

We've already been over this. The main reasons why it's rarely used are because:

1) It took nearly two years for NVidia to support the feature in their drivers.

2) Only NVidia supports the feature.

And yes, it uses a lead thread (DX12 uses a lead thread as well). What does it matter, as long as the other threads are being utilized?

Once Mantle was released it was obvious just how bad DX11 is.

If Mantle was so superior to DX11, then why is NVidia so competitive with AMD in BF4?

Remember those claims about the R9 290x "ridiculing" the Titan in BF4?

Contemporary benchmarks show just the opposite. AMD underestimated NVidia's ability to tune their drivers, and they overestimated the issues with DX11.

Is Mantle better than DX11? Yes it is, but the difference is nowhere near as massive as AMD would have you believe..

 

[monstercameron]

What?
Nvidia Dx11>Better than Mantle on my PC and it has a big difference.
AMD try to make Dx11 look bad and it failed.I remember those people who said that it Mantle will provide more than 50% of boost and know what it is not even 10% of improvement for high end user.So in short in Nvidia has proved that u can provide much improved performance through Drivers if u are willing to do it.

it is the legions of developers that give credibility to AMD's claims(although people who write drivers might know better). Also why the f*$k should anyone take your word for it when you are so clearly biased? Your claims are BS man...

 

[3DVagabond]

What?
Nvidia Dx11>Better than Mantle on my PC and it has a big difference.
AMD try to make Dx11 look bad and it failed.I remember those people who said that it Mantle will provide more than 50% of boost and know what it is not even 10% of improvement for high end user.So in short in Nvidia has proved that u can provide much improved performance through Drivers if u are willing to do it.

Your computer has issues.

Is this not high end enough for you?

 

[zlatan]

DX11 isn't a POS. DX11 hasn't even been fully exploited by game developers until now. AMD doesn't even support the main performance enhancing feature of DX11!

You mean deferred context? It's a complete failure. It needs too much CPU resource to work well. With a six core Sandy Bridge-E processor it is not a problem to dedicate five-seven threads for the driver, but most gamers just have two cores or four threads. With this configuration deferred context just slow down the execution in the critical scenarios, because the driver threads stole the resource from the engine threads. You may get slightly higher average frame-rate, but you will pay with much lower minimals, unless you have a top Sandy Bridge-E CPU.

Mantle is great and useful I admit, but DX11 has not limited game development and it performs well when used properly. Look at the latest PC games on the horizon. Witcher 3, Dragon Age Inquisition, Batman Arkham Knight etcetera are all huge games with plenty of detail and density and they are all DX11..

The number one reason why Mantle born is D3D11 limits the game development. The problem is that a high-level graphics API force us a very bad programing model. I try to explain this simple. You write a code, and it may not work very well. You try to profile it to track down what is the problem, but the graphics driver is actually a limiting factor, because you can't see what happens in the driver (It's a black box). If you are lucky enough, you may find a solution in two weeks, but there is a huge chance that the problem is driver releated, and fixing that is may take one month or more. Now the tricky part is the code plus the driver may have more than one problem, so even if you fix one, than another will show up, and that's a another wasted month.
Mantle make this elegant. Actually this API is just executing shaders, and that's all. This will lead to a very good, console-style programing model, because what was in the driver in D3D, is now in the engine, so I perfectly see what's the problem with a code without any help (nV/Intel/AMD). And every problem is fixable with very little effort.

Several developers are just doing console exclusive titles now, because they are tired of optimizing for a black box. Many customers just say this and that on PC are just badly optimized, but in the other hand, how do I optimize, when I don't able to profile and track down the problems?

 

[desprado]

Your computer has issues.

Is this not high end enough for you?

lol lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJUCy2iB4r4
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7930/the-amd-radeon-r9-295x2-review/9
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphi...DIA-33750-Scaling-Demonstrated-Star-Swarm-AM1
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...-nvidia-337-50-driver-performance-review.html

Plz dont benchmark on 4k which we know nvidia has a performance problem

This is the best part
http://www.overclock.net/t/1480050/...-off-win8-1-vs-win7-new-nvidia-337-50-drivers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brq7_btfGBI

 

[DarkKnightDude]

lol lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJUCy2iB4r4
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7930/the-amd-radeon-r9-295x2-review/9
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphi...DIA-33750-Scaling-Demonstrated-Star-Swarm-AM1
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...-nvidia-337-50-driver-performance-review.html

Plz dont benchmark on 4k which we know nvidia has a performance problem

So he's not allowed to show benchmarks because Nvidia has a problem in them but its okay for you. Gotcha.

 

[3DVagabond]

You mean deferred context? It's a complete failure. It needs too much CPU resource to work well. With a six core Sandy Bridge-E processor it is not a problem to dedicate five-seven threads for the driver, but most gamers just have two cores or four threads. With this configuration deferred context just slow down the execution in the critical scenarios, because the driver threads stole the resource from the engine threads. You may get slightly higher average frame-rate, but you will pay with much lower minimals, unless you have a top Sandy Bridge-E CPU.



The number one reason why Mantle born is D3D11 limits the game development. The problem is that a high-level graphics API force us a very bad programing model. I try to explain this simple. You write a code, and it may not work very well. You try to profile it to track down what is the problem, but the graphics driver is actually a limiting factor, because you can't see what happens in the driver. If you are lucky enough, you may find a solution in two weeks, but there is a huge chance that the problem is driver releated, and fixing that is may take one month or more. Now the tricky part is the code plus the driver may have more than one problem, so even if you fix one, than another will show up, and that's a another wasted month.
Mantle make this elegant. Actually this API is just executing shaders, and that's all. This will lead to a very good, console-style programing model, because what was in the driver in D3D, is now in the engine, so I perfectly see what's the problem with a code without any help (nV/Intel/AMD). And every problem is fixable with very little effort.

What you are saying has been reported for months now. People just refuse to believe it and label all devs that say this as either code monkeys or shills. Johan actually posted in the original Mantle thread here and he got accused of trying to turn it into a marketing thread and run off. I hope you don't as well.

 

[monstercameron]

...snip...[/URL]

Plz dont benchmark on 4k which we know nvidia has a performance problem

Performance problem or deficiency?

 

[desprado]

So he's not allowed to show benchmarks because Nvidia has a problem in them but its okay for you. Gotcha.

Of course i am saying nvidia has problem on 4k but fact is 4k almost non exist because there not even 1% user that use 4k.

 

[desprado]

Performance problem or deficiency?

I dont know about that but has problems on 4k.

 

[3DVagabond]

lol lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJUCy2iB4r4
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7930/the-amd-radeon-r9-295x2-review/9
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphi...DIA-33750-Scaling-Demonstrated-Star-Swarm-AM1
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...-nvidia-337-50-driver-performance-review.html

Plz dont benchmark on 4k which we know nvidia has a performance problem

This is the best part
http://www.overclock.net/t/1480050/...-off-win8-1-vs-win7-new-nvidia-337-50-drivers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brq7_btfGBI

Too high end for you, then.

 

[desprado]

Too high end for you, then.

Peace bro
What i am trying to say Nvidia driver has better cpu usage than AMD Dx11 which is shown in benchmark and other threads.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Battl...Battlefield-Hardline-Beta-Benchmarks-1125079/

https://translate.google.com/transl...ardline-beta-test-gpu.html&edit-text=&act=url

Even R9 290X with Mantle cannot beat GTX 780 TI Dx11.

 

[Noctifer616]

Peace bro
What i am trying to say Nvidia driver has better cpu usage than AMD Dx11 which is shown in benchmark and other threads.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Battl...Battlefield-Hardline-Beta-Benchmarks-1125079/

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgamegpu.ru%2Faction-%2F-fps-%2F-tps%2Fbattlefield-hardline-beta-test-gpu.html&edit-text=&act=url

Even R9 290X with Mantle cannot beat GTX 780 TI Dx11.

The GTX 780 Ti is higher priced and bigger chip than the 290X. It is expected that it would run better than a 290X.

Right now Mantle mostly gets rid of CPU bottleneck and improves frame pacing which is most noticeable on multy GPU systems.

Stuff like Asynchronous Compute isn't used in Mantle games so far and most are FPS. Stuff like MMORPG's and Strategy games should see a lot larger benefit.

The API isn't even finished yet and it will probably take a while for games to fully expose all the benefits and features it offers.

 

[Carfax83]

You mean deferred context? It's a complete failure. It needs too much CPU resource to work well. With a six core Sandy Bridge-E processor it is not a problem to dedicate five-seven threads for the driver, but most gamers just have two cores or four threads. With this configuration deferred context just slow down the execution in the critical scenarios, because the driver threads stole the resource from the engine threads. You may get slightly higher average frame-rate, but you will pay with much lower minimals, unless you have a top Sandy Bridge-E CPU.

Maybe you're right, but it hasn't stopped developers from implementing it. Usually they make the game with both an IC and DC rendering path..

This year, Project CARS has already been verified to use the technology, and apparently, Watch Dogs' Disrupt engine uses it as well, which may explain why NVidia has such a large performance lead in that game.

Ubisoft seems to like using it, as AC III, Far Cry 3 (the feature was broken in that game), and now Watch Dogs uses it. We'll see whether Far Cry 4 and AC Unity take advantage of the technology later this year...

The number one reason why Mantle born is D3D11 limits the game development. The problem is that a high-level graphics API force us a very bad programing model. I try to explain this simple. You write a code, and it may not work very well. You try to profile it to track down what is the problem, but the graphics driver is actually a limiting factor, because you can't see what happens in the driver (It's a black box). If you are lucky enough, you may find a solution in two weeks, but there is a huge chance that the problem is driver releated, and fixing that is may take one month or more. Now the tricky part is the code plus the driver may have more than one problem, so even if you fix one, than another will show up, and that's a another wasted month.
Mantle make this elegant. Actually this API is just executing shaders, and that's all. This will lead to a very good, console-style programing model, because what was in the driver in D3D, is now in the engine, so I perfectly see what's the problem with a code without any help (nV/Intel/AMD). And every problem is fixable with very little effort.

Are you kidding me? BF4 Mantle had tremendous growing pains and lots of issues. For some people, it still has lots of problems.

Several developers are just doing console exclusive titles now, because they are tired of optimizing for a black box. Many customers just say this and that on PC are just badly optimized, but in the other hand, how do I optimize, when I don't able to profile and track down the problems?

Who are these developers? PC gaming is growing, not shrinking, and the PC platform is more profitable than the console platform, as there is less operating overhead due to no royalties and digital distribution..

If anything, more developers are doing multiplatform releases with the PC than ever before.

 

[Leadbox]

Peace bro
What i am trying to say Nvidia driver has better cpu usage than AMD Dx11 which is shown in benchmark and other threads.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Battl...Battlefield-Hardline-Beta-Benchmarks-1125079/

https://translate.google.com/transl...ardline-beta-test-gpu.html&edit-text=&act=url

Even R9 290X with Mantle cannot beat GTX 780 TI Dx11.

How representative of actual gameplay is this benchmark run?
I would love to see the boost clocks on that. There're sections of the game that ask a lot more of the hardware than that surely :\
I can appreciate how they get these numbers out there early and all that, but it''s a bit of a joke what their test runs are.

 

[desprado]

How representative of actual gameplay is this benchmark run?
I would love to see the boost clocks on that. There're sections of the game that ask a lot more of the hardware than that surely :\
I can appreciate how they get these numbers out there early and all that, but it''s a bit of a joke what their test runs are.

Well bro those site are heavily sponsored by AMD on twiter and by AMD Roy.

 

[PPB]

Well bro those site are heavily sponsored by AMD on twiter and by AMD Roy.

But citing the site that puts the Titan Z performing better than both 295x2 and 780ti SLI is ok with you.

Please dude, drop the green glasses once in a while.

 

[Spjut]

Peace bro
What i am trying to say Nvidia driver has better cpu usage than AMD Dx11 which is shown in benchmark and other threads.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Battl...Battlefield-Hardline-Beta-Benchmarks-1125079/

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgamegpu.ru%2Faction-%2F-fps-%2F-tps%2Fbattlefield-hardline-beta-test-gpu.html&edit-text=&act=url

Even R9 290X with Mantle cannot beat GTX 780 TI Dx11.

For the games that use Mantle, AMD has no incentive to make game specific DX11 optimizations.
You should be careful of assuming that AMD's DX11 path in BF4/Hardline is representative of their DX11 optimizations for non-Mantle games.

And if you look at the CPU benchmark, they actually downclocked that i7 3770k from 4.6 ghz to 1.8 ghz. And the end result with Mantle enabled was a very marginal decrease in performance, whereas the DX11.1 path got litterally half the performance even for Nvidia.