University Officer Indicted For Murder In Routine Traffic Stop

[HumblePie]

I grew up in a town of 7k, is that small? 😛

Hamlet
Village
Town
City




That's about the order of size categorization. About the actual population size ranges for each categorization goes about the following.

Hamlet = 10-99
Village = 100 - 999
Town = 1,000 - 99,999
City = 100,000 - 999,999
Metropolis = 1 mil + (but also tends to be called cities still in common vernacular)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_hierarchy

So a city with less than 200k population would still be considered a small city.

 

[Subyman]

Oooh, I want to make a Hamlet.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Oooh, I want to make a Hamlet.

If you did, you could have your own reality TV show :thumbsup:

 

[davmat787]

Lol. U talking to me? Akron doesn't have a million people in it. Cleveland has maybe 500k. Just checked. 198,000 people in Akron. Coming from a small town may have been an excuse for racism in the 50's but with the internet and so much information available to everyone all the time it's no longer an excuse. It's bullshit. Akron is fucking tiny. I moved to dc 659k population in the diamond and then to LA 7 million pop. That's fucking big not Akron. Put down the crack pipe.

Who said anything about coming from a small town being an excuse for racism?

 

[JSt0rm]

Who said anything about coming from a small town being an excuse for racism?

I know my world view and politics would be vastly different if I was born in say NYC and not some dying Midwestern town, and the reasons for its demise.

If this premise can be accepted, then one will hopefully accept opposite viewpoints can be just as rationally realized as ones own.

^^^ what does that mean in the context of this thread if not oking racisim. Thats what we are talking about here. The constant dog whistles from certain members around here. At any rate I dont have time for the dog pile today. Some of these people want to be fucking ignorant then fine let them. But if I see it I will comment on it. There should be no leeway in racism.

 

[Subyman]

Who said anything about coming from a small town being an excuse for racism?

There is no excuse. I was born in the deep south. My Uncle and grand parents were racist. My grand father casually used the N word all the time. We moved to a small town in Southern Illinois when I was younger. The town was 100% white and tons of people were racists (even though most had never met a black person...) It has always disgusted me how people can treat others like that.

 

[Vaux]

Look at the reflections in the windows. The cop was NOT dragged until he pulled out the gun to start shooting. His hand was in the vehicle holding on to something while he was pulling out his gun. Did he get dragged? Yes of a sort, but by the accelerator being pushed by a dead man already. The dragging is a non sequitur when it comes to being a defense for the shooting. The shot happened before the dragging. Which I'm not sure of being dragged so much as knocked over by the car on his butt and rolled down the street a bit. Had he been actually "dragged" chances are good his leg would have been ran over by the car given his relative position to it.

You are wrong. The video is too jerky to learn much from reflections. And I totally disagree he "pulled out his gun to start shooting" That's not usually what officers do. He didn't shoot then dive 15 feet - it was literally 1 second after he shot that he was on the ground because of falling. The shot did not happen before the dragging. And you have no idea about the "chances" of his leg being run over - plenty of police have been dragged and never ran over, one just happened with a state patrolman where I live a couple years ago.... stop making things up.

 

[soundforbjt]

okay finally got to listen to the video and break it down.

Cop asks the guy for the license and he says he doesn't have it on him that the cop can look his info up by his name. Guy states he left it at home and lives around the corner. Cop thinks he's driving on a suspended license. When he asks the guy if he has a suspended license the guy responds no. Cop then reaches over to start unlocking the door while stating "Why don't you go ahead and take your seat belt off for me?"

First off, that is not a lawful order to exit the vehicle or anything. Still the guy responds by closing the door with his left hand and turning the key with his right. This is when the officer reaches into the vehicle to grab an arm? the seat belt? the wheel? It's hard to tell, but what can be seen is his gun coming out. At this point in a frame by frame breakdown, the engine hasn't revved and the car hasn't moved. Shots fire AS the engine revves. The man jerks away and the car moves knocking the cop over. The car speeds off until it gets hung on the sidewalk with the man dead inside.

There was no danger to the life of the cop or anyone else. There was no justified use of lethal force. The cop escalated the incident and didn't properly control the situation. His actions on the job were incorrect and ultimately looks what ended up as murder. We'll hear his statements in court tomorrow from what I understand. The actions of the cop in this case are completely indefensible. The cop will be on trial for murder charges for this, but will possibly bargain it down to voluntary manslaughter or a midge less than that is my guess at the moment.

We agree yet again. The officer is now out on bond. He was on suicide watch while he was in jail. He lives with his father who raised the $100K to get him out.
The officer claimed he was reaching in to turn off the ignition, pretty stupid idea since you'd have to reach through the steering wheel to do that at that angle.

 

[rommelrommel]

/this.

I was also sickened by how fast the other officers agreed and added to the story.

This is murder. he had no reason to shoot.


oh and WTF akron a small city? What the fuck you fucking imbecile learn what a small city really is. fucking damn near a million in akron and that's small? lol.

I don't see murder... I agree that he probably fucked up. I don't see any intent.

 

[Hugo Drax]

You would think at some point people will say. Hummm maybe when a cop pulls me over it would be a good idea to stay cool and collected and not go crazy.

It's not like your gonna win, he has the gun you dont.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

I don't see murder... I agree that he probably fucked up. I don't see any intent.

I guess I don't understand. He pointed his gun at a dude's head and pulled the trigger. How did he not intend to kill the guy?

 

[Pulsar]

I guess I don't understand. He pointed his gun at a dude's head and pulled the trigger. How did he not intend to kill the guy?

I think you need to go read about the difference between Murder and Manslaughter.

I see involuntary manslaughter here.

 

[Subyman]

I think you need to go read about the difference between Murder and Manslaughter.

I see involuntary manslaughter here.

I tend to agree. Criminally negligent manslaughter (involuntary) may apply because he was working in a professional capacity and killed someone outside of policy. Voluntary manslaughter would be a bit harder to prove. They'd instead have to go down the path of what his intentions were and if his safety was jeopardized, which muddies the waters quite a bit, but I think it could be possible.

 

[Jaskalas]

Should be made common knowledge that if you are inside a running vehicle then the police are likely to shoot you dead. It's a common excuse for murder. Turning on the ignition is just as bad as pulling a gun.

 

[werepossum]

You are wrong. The video is too jerky to learn much from reflections. And I totally disagree he "pulled out his gun to start shooting" That's not usually what officers do. He didn't shoot then dive 15 feet - it was literally 1 second after he shot that he was on the ground because of falling. The shot did not happen before the dragging. And you have no idea about the "chances" of his leg being run over - plenty of police have been dragged and never ran over, one just happened with a state patrolman where I live a couple years ago.... stop making things up.

Disagree. The cop has a hell of a draw, but he fired with the gun well above the door sill, angling down, with his body vertical. Being dragged would make his body more horizontal and his gun hand would lower, requiring him to raise it up before shooting or to fire through the door, angling up.

We agree yet again. The officer is now out on bond. He was on suicide watch while he was in jail. He lives with his father who raised the $100K to get him out.
The officer claimed he was reaching in to turn off the ignition, pretty stupid idea since you'd have to reach through the steering wheel to do that at that angle.

That was certainly how I perceived it. That would also explain why he was dragged or knocked down. I really can't tell which, maybe his arm was snagged through the steering wheel, maybe he had grabbed something, maybe the driver's body striking his arm just knocked him over. I can't really tell if the driver floored it before being killed or after, as a reflex, but it looks to me like the officer shot too quickly to make dragging an effective defense. It's not at all clear to me that he would have been dragged or knocked down had he not killed the driver.

You would think at some point people will say. Hummm maybe when a cop pulls me over it would be a good idea to stay cool and collected and not go crazy.

It's not like your gonna win, he has the gun you dont.

This is true. The driver did something monumentally stupid. Too bad he didn't watch that Chris Rock video that Shorty linked.

 

[werepossum]

I tend to agree. Criminally negligent manslaughter (involuntary) may apply because he was working in a professional capacity and killed someone outside of policy. Voluntary manslaughter would be a bit harder to prove. They'd instead have to go down the path of what his intentions were and if his safety was jeopardized, which muddies the waters quite a bit, but I think it could be possible.

Unless his defense is that the gun went off because he was pulled off balance, I don't see how he gets involuntary manslaughter because pulling the trigger with the pistol pointed at a man's head at point blank range is nearly guaranteed to kill. And given the body camera video, I don't think that defense will fly. Unless he cops a plea or is acquitted, I think we're looking at voluntary manslaughter or even murder 2. I'm not sure he had sufficient time to formulate intent to murder so I'm guessing voluntary manslaughter.

Hopefully DVC weighs in with an expert opinion.

 

[Venix]

Disagree. The cop has a hell of a draw, but he fired with the gun well above the door sill, angling down, with his body vertical. Being dragged would make his body more horizontal and his gun hand would lower, requiring him to raise it up before shooting or to fire through the door, angling up.

I'm not sure if that's really proof that he wasn't being dragged. Imagine that the car is moving forward and he's walking/running to avoid falling down. He would still be standing above the driver, but I would definitely classify that as being dragged. For example, this cop was clearly dragged, but he was also on his feet running the entire time. Not that any of that excuses shooting the driver instead of letting go.

But for anyone who thinks that this will be a simple conviction, look up the Ivory Webb case. Webb's victim was lying prone on the ground. Webb told him to stand up, then shot him in the back several times as he stood. Despite falsely claiming that the victim had lunged at him and being contradicted by a bystander's video, Webb was still acquitted at trial. It's very difficult to convict cops.

 

[shortylickens]

Hamlet
Village
Town
City




That's about the order of size categorization. About the actual population size ranges for each categorization goes about the following.

Hamlet = 10-99
Village = 100 - 999
Town = 1,000 - 99,999
City = 100,000 - 999,999
Metropolis = 1 mil + (but also tends to be called cities still in common vernacular)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_hierarchy

So a city with less than 200k population would still be considered a small city.

My said he once drove thru a town in northern Minnesota with population: 3.

They had a post office so they were a legal town.

 

[werepossum]

I'm not sure if that's really proof that he wasn't being dragged. Imagine that the car is moving forward and he's walking/running to avoid falling down. He would still be standing above the driver, but I would definitely classify that as being dragged. For example, this cop was clearly dragged, but he was also on his feet running the entire time. Not that any of that excuses shooting the driver instead of letting go.

But for anyone who thinks that this will be a simple conviction, look up the Ivory Webb case. Webb's victim was lying prone on the ground. Webb told him to stand up, then shot him in the back several times as he stood. Despite falsely claiming that the victim had lunged at him and being contradicted by a bystander's video, Webb was still acquitted at trial. It's very difficult to convict cops.

But regardless of whether or not he was dragged, he fired immediately as the car began moving. I'm not at all sure he can even sell the story that the car materially moved before he fired. Nonetheless, your point about the difficulty of convicting cops is well taken.

My said he once drove thru a town in northern Minnesota with population: 3.

They had a post office so they were a legal town.

So . . . I'm guessing probably not much chance of getting a pizza delivered.

A postmistress, a postal employee, and a security guard - the perfect progressive town, 100% federal government! 😀

 

[Darwin333]

I didn't watch the video, but unless he moved the body or conspired before hand to help murder the victim, those won't stick. Sounds like he gave false testimony to help his friend cover it up. Maybe accessory after the fact, but he will plea out to obstruction anyway.

I'm not a lawyer but helping to cover up a murder, including but not limited to swearing to a false police report/lying to the police, generally gets us civilians more than an obstruction charge.

 

[Subyman]

Unless his defense is that the gun went off because he was pulled off balance, I don't see how he gets involuntary manslaughter because pulling the trigger with the pistol pointed at a man's head at point blank range is nearly guaranteed to kill. And given the body camera video, I don't think that defense will fly. Unless he cops a plea or is acquitted, I think we're looking at voluntary manslaughter or even murder 2. I'm not sure he had sufficient time to formulate intent to murder so I'm guessing voluntary manslaughter.

Hopefully DVC weighs in with an expert opinion.

We are talking about a different intent. Negligent manslaughter would be he believed he was following legal procedure and was within his rights to shoot the man. Usually this can also fall under he "felt" his life was in danger, but he was wrong to act. When you feel your life is in danger AND the situation backs up your perception then you get off, but if you felt your life was in danger but you were wrong then we get into involuntary manslaughter.

To get to voluntary manslaughter there must be malice involved.

 

[rommelrommel]

Unless his defense is that the gun went off because he was pulled off balance, I don't see how he gets involuntary manslaughter because pulling the trigger with the pistol pointed at a man's head at point blank range is nearly guaranteed to kill. And given the body camera video, I don't think that defense will fly. Unless he cops a plea or is acquitted, I think we're looking at voluntary manslaughter or even murder 2. I'm not sure he had sufficient time to formulate intent to murder so I'm guessing voluntary manslaughter.

Hopefully DVC weighs in with an expert opinion.

If he really believed that he was being dragged, or was about to be dragged, then the shooting is likely justified... Assuming he can sell that to a jury.

He's going to be hard pressed to say he didn't intend to pull the trigger given his after shooting narrative.

I see either voluntary manslaughter or a discharge. If he can articulate that he reasonably believed GBHD was about to occur (whether he was in fact right or not) it's pretty questionable what success this prosecution will have.

 

[Subyman]

If he really believed that he was being dragged, or was about to be dragged, then the shooting is likely justified... Assuming he can sell that to a jury.

He's going to be hard pressed to say he didn't intend to pull the trigger given his after shooting narrative.

I see either voluntary manslaughter or a discharge. If he can articulate that he reasonably believed GBHD was about to occur (whether he was in fact right or not) it's pretty questionable what success this prosecution will have.

Actually as I said above, he had to believe he was being dragged and then actually be dragged for him to get off. The reality has to back up the perception or you could get into involuntary manslaughter charges. From what I've seen, the dragging happened after he shot the man in the head.

 

[rommelrommel]

We are talking about a different intent. Negligent manslaughter would be he believed he was following legal procedure and was within his rights to shoot the man. Usually this can also fall under he "felt" his life was in danger, but he was wrong to act. When you feel your life is in danger AND the situation backs up your perception then you get off, but if you felt your life was in danger but you were wrong then we get into involuntary manslaughter.

To get to voluntary manslaughter there must be malice involved.

And shooting him doesn't even have to be the best response, just a reasonable response, to the perceptions. Sure, maybe stepping back and unentangling himself from the car may have been a better call, but you aren't held to perfection... Just reasonableness. Not weighing in on what happened, just considering the difficulty of proving the charges.

 

[rommelrommel]

Actually as I said above, he had to believe he was being dragged and then actually be dragged for him to get off. The reality has to back up the perception or you could get into involuntary manslaughter charges. From what I've seen, the dragging happened after he shot the man in the head.

I disagree. Reasonably believing that he was about to be dragged would meet the criteria to intervene with lethal force.