University Officer Indicted For Murder In Routine Traffic Stop

[railer]

I just realized something:

JSt0rm = Rachel Dolezal.

You go girl.

 

[davmat787]

I was born in akron, ohio so I get the small town mentality. One thing I wont do is be tolerant of intolerance and racism either systemic or other.

oh and davmat i do appreciate your posts.

Akron.... a small town? Lol Akron was probably a trip to the big city for many from truly small towns. I'm really kidding you I'm sure it was small and Midwestern enough for you to get what I am driving at.

Thanks for reading my comments to you and taking them in the spirit they were authored in.



Do you think it's possible that totally different life experiences will lead to differing, even opposite, viewpoints, both rationally achieved?



I do as I said before and once I realized this it's much easier to understand differing opinions because one is no longer hung up on the right vs. wrong schism or the identity politics derived from where someone is from.

 

[HumblePie]

okay finally got to listen to the video and break it down.

Cop asks the guy for the license and he says he doesn't have it on him that the cop can look his info up by his name. Guy states he left it at home and lives around the corner. Cop thinks he's driving on a suspended license. When he asks the guy if he has a suspended license the guy responds no. Cop then reaches over to start unlocking the door while stating "Why don't you go ahead and take your seat belt off for me?"

First off, that is not a lawful order to exit the vehicle or anything. Still the guy responds by closing the door with his left hand and turning the key with his right. This is when the officer reaches into the vehicle to grab an arm? the seat belt? the wheel? It's hard to tell, but what can be seen is his gun coming out. At this point in a frame by frame breakdown, the engine hasn't revved and the car hasn't moved. Shots fire AS the engine revves. The man jerks away and the car moves knocking the cop over. The car speeds off until it gets hung on the sidewalk with the man dead inside.

There was no danger to the life of the cop or anyone else. There was no justified use of lethal force. The cop escalated the incident and didn't properly control the situation. His actions on the job were incorrect and ultimately looks what ended up as murder. We'll hear his statements in court tomorrow from what I understand. The actions of the cop in this case are completely indefensible. The cop will be on trial for murder charges for this, but will possibly bargain it down to voluntary manslaughter or a midge less than that is my guess at the moment.

 

[davmat787]

HumblePie, earlier post of main brought up the same issue of whether the officers words constituted a lawful order to exit the vehicle. I didn't think it did earlier, nor did Officer Encinidas in the Bland case.



I asked DonVito to comment on what exactly constitutes a lawful order to exit a vehicle, hopefully he can shed some light.



Phrases like "You want to step out?" or "How about you take off your seatbelt?" leave the option open to not do those things and aren't explicit yet often leads to a shitstorm if not performed what they imply.

 

[OCNewbie]

I'm not sure why you guys are so hung up on whether or not the cop gave the guy a lawful order to exit the vehicle (perhaps you can explain it to me). If the cop didn't give a clear, lawful order, does that mean the driver was in the right to start his car, put the car in gear, and attempt to drive away with the cop right there?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I'm not sure why you guys are so hung up on whether or not the cop gave the guy a lawful order to exit the vehicle (perhaps you can explain it to me). If the cop didn't give a clear, lawful order, does that mean the driver was in the right to start his car, put the car in gear, and attempt to drive away with the cop right there?

I know, why isn't anyone asking should he have even made that stop. He is a university cop. The neighborhood didn't look like it would be student housing but I have seen it in pretty crappy place so I'm not sure. My question is was this cop just looking for more exciting action than what was going on at school?

 

[Vaux]

From what I can tell, the officer did appear to get dragged several feet. Look at the location of the pot hole in the middle of the street during the stop. Then after the officer gets up, you can see that he is standing a little in front of the hole. And look how much closer he is to that parked car. The car was definitely moving when he shot the driver - there is no reason to suspect that the officer was lying when he said he got drug by the car.

The lawful order stuff you can forget about, nothing to do with anything here. My experience says what happened here was the driver was not cooperative, begins to take off, officer reaches in the car which he should NOT do in that scenario - because well, that's how you get dragged by cars. The officer should have stepped back and ran back to his squad to chase. Instead, the officer instantly pulls his gun in effort to order the driver to comply - gets scared because he is beginning to get dragged and shoots the guy. Bad decision by the officer. It's so easy to critique the split second decisions police have to sometimes make, but the job demands accountability. He should not have shot the guy - if he would have been dragged much further and it appeared he had no other choice, my verdict would be different on this. But the way this stands, bad shoot.

*edit - I just realized someone else already pointed out the pot hole and sign in an earlier post, I didn't read through the whole thread, apologies.

 

[OCNewbie]

He should not have shot the guy - if he would have been dragged much further and it appeared he had no other choice, my verdict would be different on this. But the way this stands, bad shoot.

I pretty much agree with this. I'm just unsure of whether or not the cop will be able to prove that it would have been reasonable for him to fear for his life in that moment, and reasonable to think his weapon needed to be discharged in order to save his own life. Maybe it's like it is in Florida, where the cop doesn't need to prove he had a reasonable fear, but the prosecution will have to DISprove he could have had a reasonable fear.

When it comes down to it, I can't imagine this cop being convicted of anything worse than Voluntary Manslaughter, given the circumstances.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

I'm not sure why you guys are so hung up on whether or not the cop gave the guy a lawful order to exit the vehicle (perhaps you can explain it to me). If the cop didn't give a clear, lawful order, does that mean the driver was in the right to start his car, put the car in gear, and attempt to drive away with the cop right there?

I know, right? The focus should be on why the cop had to end a man's life.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

I pretty much agree with this. I'm just unsure of whether or not the cop will be able to prove that it would have been reasonable for him to fear for his life in that moment, and reasonable to think his weapon needed to be discharged in order to save his own life. Maybe it's like it is in Florida, where the cop doesn't need to prove he had a reasonable fear, but the prosecution will have to DISprove he could have had a reasonable fear.

When it comes down to it, I can't imagine this cop being convicted on anything worse than Voluntary Manslaughter, given the circumstances.

From a strictly legal-system standpoint I suspect you're right. But from a moral standpoint...damn.

 

[davmat787]

I'm not sure why you guys are so hung up on whether or not the cop gave the guy a lawful order to exit the vehicle (perhaps you can explain it to me). If the cop didn't give a clear, lawful order, does that mean the driver was in the right to start his car, put the car in gear, and attempt to drive away with the cop right there?

It's more for educational reasons than anything pertaining to this specific case, at least in regards to my comments.

 

[Subyman]

I surfed around a few channels last night. Hannity made sure to use the gin bottle frame of the video when talking about the film, even though that bottle was unopened. His "experts" squirmed trying to justify the shoot. Other channels where appalled at the shoot and tried to massage racism into it.

I think its official. P&N is more level headed than the US media.

 

[Pulsar]

Suby you aren't kidding. Channel 9 from Cincinnati had their YouTube video description say it was a murder.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...id_lindenschmidt_suspended_after_backing.html

Other cops that witnessed are now on leave, after their body cams showed they talked over what they saw and standardizing their story.

Furthermore, the body cameras of Kidd and Lindenschmidt—made public on Thursday—show just how quickly Tensing and his colleagues coalesced around a false narrative of how the incident occurred.

Lindenschmidt initially asks Tensing “what’d he pull on you?” After Tensing doesn’t answer, he asks again “he pulled?” This time, Tensing responds “he didn’t reach for anything.”

At about the four-minute mark in the above video Lindenschmidt tells another officer the exact opposite, though. “He had a traffic stop, the guy took off from him. The officer got caught in his car, because the guy reached for something—he thought—and so he grabbed onto the car,” Lindenschmidt says, contradicting what Tensing had just told him. “Our officer went down, he got tangled in the car, drew his gun and fired.”

Hopefully they get fired and charged as well.

Just shows once again that you can't trust police testimony...they will lie to cover up crimes committed by their brother officers. Without video of this, all the cops would have gotten away with killing this man.

 

[BoberFett]

I surfed around a few channels last night. Hannity made sure to use the gin bottle frame of the video when talking about the film, even though that bottle was unopened. His "experts" squirmed trying to justify the shoot. Other channels where appalled at the shoot and tried to massage racism into it.

I think its official. P&N is more level headed than the US media.

That's probably true. And scary.

 

[BoberFett]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...id_lindenschmidt_suspended_after_backing.html

Other cops that witnessed are now on leave, after their body cams showed they talked over what they saw and standardizing their story.





Hopefully they get fired and charged as well.

Just shows once again that you can't trust police testimony...they will lie to cover up crimes committed by their brother officers. Without video of this, all the cops would have gotten away with killing this man.

While watching the video, I was struck by how many times he kept telling people that he was dragged. It seemed clear to me that he was trying to build the narrative early.

"Oh shit, I fucked up. How do I cover it up..."

 

[davmat787]

While watching the video, I was struck by how many times he kept telling people that he was dragged. It seemed clear to me that he was trying to build the narrative early.

"Oh shit, I fucked up. How do I cover it up..."

What still stands out to me is the complete comfort and confidence officers pull shit like this and more blatantly illegal acts while knowing they are on camera.

Speaks volumes to their confidence of not facing consequence let alone prosecution and the culture that fosters this.

 

[HumblePie]

From what I can tell, the officer did appear to get dragged several feet. Look at the location of the pot hole in the middle of the street during the stop. Then after the officer gets up, you can see that he is standing a little in front of the hole. And look how much closer he is to that parked car. The car was definitely moving when he shot the driver - there is no reason to suspect that the officer was lying when he said he got drug by the car.

The lawful order stuff you can forget about, nothing to do with anything here. My experience says what happened here was the driver was not cooperative, begins to take off, officer reaches in the car which he should NOT do in that scenario - because well, that's how you get dragged by cars. The officer should have stepped back and ran back to his squad to chase. Instead, the officer instantly pulls his gun in effort to order the driver to comply - gets scared because he is beginning to get dragged and shoots the guy. Bad decision by the officer. It's so easy to critique the split second decisions police have to sometimes make, but the job demands accountability. He should not have shot the guy - if he would have been dragged much further and it appeared he had no other choice, my verdict would be different on this. But the way this stands, bad shoot.

*edit - I just realized someone else already pointed out the pot hole and sign in an earlier post, I didn't read through the whole thread, apologies.

Look at the reflections in the windows. The cop was NOT dragged until he pulled out the gun to start shooting. His hand was in the vehicle holding on to something while he was pulling out his gun. Did he get dragged? Yes of a sort, but by the accelerator being pushed by a dead man already. The dragging is a non sequitur when it comes to being a defense for the shooting. The shot happened before the dragging. Which I'm not sure of being dragged so much as knocked over by the car on his butt and rolled down the street a bit. Had he been actually "dragged" chances are good his leg would have been ran over by the car given his relative position to it.

 

[Moonbeam]

While watching the video, I was struck by how many times he kept telling people that he was dragged. It seemed clear to me that he was trying to build the narrative early.

"Oh shit, I fucked up. How do I cover it up..."

Me too. My impression was that his actions were more reflex than intentional murder, that if he had it to do over it wouldn't have happened that way even if he weren't wearing a camera. I just think his instinct at self preservation and the fear of legal repercussions he will face anyway because of the camera made him attempt to lie rather than confess to his mistake.

We have a system of laws and police to enforce them which leads to cops looking for violations. It seems to me the police would do well to remember the seriousness of the offence they are addressing at all times during a stop.

 

[waggy]

While watching the video, I was struck by how many times he kept telling people that he was dragged. It seemed clear to me that he was trying to build the narrative early.

"Oh shit, I fucked up. How do I cover it up..."

/this.

I was also sickened by how fast the other officers agreed and added to the story.

This is murder. he had no reason to shoot.


oh and WTF akron a small city? What the fuck you fucking imbecile learn what a small city really is. fucking damn near a million in akron and that's small? lol.

 

[JSt0rm]

Would he have been in less trouble had he admitted to a accidental discharge from the get go? That sf cop got 2 years for killing oscar grant. Not much false narrative could be built in that case though.

 

[JSt0rm]

/this.

I was also sickened by how fast the other officers agreed and added to the story.

This is murder. he had no reason to shoot.


oh and WTF akron a small city? What the fuck you fucking imbecile learn what a small city really is. fucking damn near a million in akron and that's small? lol.

Lol. U talking to me? Akron doesn't have a million people in it. Cleveland has maybe 500k. Just checked. 198,000 people in Akron. Coming from a small town may have been an excuse for racism in the 50's but with the internet and so much information available to everyone all the time it's no longer an excuse. It's bullshit. Akron is fucking tiny. I moved to dc 659k population in the diamond and then to LA 7 million pop. That's fucking big not Akron. Put down the crack pipe.

 

[werepossum]

Did I say that? No. Ill ask you the same question though. So would you?

So says a racist.

Of course I would change my culture. Why would I expect the majority of people to change to suit my preferences? If one wants to be successful - however one defines successful - one does the things that are required to be successful. These aren't even static or racially defined. Sixty years ago the culture required for success was radically different than today; the blue collar manufacturing path has largely evaporated and engineering would have required that I wear a tie. In my career I've applied at places that flat out told me I'd have to be clean shaven to be even be considered. They have their reasons, and I can either choose to comply which their requirements or go another way. I went another way, but that doesn't mean they are wrong, just that they are looking for something I do not wish to be. I could not for instance work at a consulting engineering company or a conventional investment bank if I sported a bright purple mohawk and facial piercings, whereas if I were an engineer for Google or even Apple or a consultant at a bleeding edge tech investment group that might be a perfectly legitimate or perhaps even advantageous tact. Point is that culture is what I choose to embrace and if I want to change the world, it certainly won't be to force it to comply with my cultural preferences.

Very well said, as usual (I generally find your posts to be spot on, at least 9 times out of 10).

Pointless to try to have a discussion with a troll. He doesn't want an exchange of ideas, or a real discussion, he wants to assert lots of things, do no explaining of his stance, and then berate you if you don't appear to be on his "team", or share all his opinions. i.e. he's a troll.

Thanks! 9 of 10 is about the most anyone should ever agree with me. As Neil Boortz says, if two people agree on everything then one of them is redundant.

For what it's worth I do not consider JSt0rm to be a troll at all. I consider him to be a good and intelligent guy who is simply more liberal than am I and passionately believes in his positions. I've also seen him get savaged by those I do consider to be trolls (or at least proggie SJWs which are at least as bad) for holding beliefs not toeing the proggie line and he stuck to his guns just as strongly then.

Then that's all you can do, and perhaps others will read your comments weeks from now and you might change someone's mind.

But keep in mind they probably feel the exact same way you do, that you didn't listen to them either. And that's ok, people have different life experiences that form differing opinions.

Ever wonder that if you had their life experiences and they had yours that you probably would feel like they do, and they feel as you do?

I know my world view and politics would be vastly different if I was born in say NYC and not some dying Midwestern town, and the reasons for its demise.

If this premise can be accepted, then one will hopefully accept opposite viewpoints can be just as rationally realized as ones own.

Well said. I don't think a lot of opinions are changed by arguing here, but hopefully at least some people understand where the other side is coming from and realize that there are valid points on both sides of most issues, and where we fall depends as much on our life experiences and our values as on the relative merits of each side's arguments. Hopefully we all gain a little insight into others and into ourselves in the process. It's always good to have one's beliefs challenged regardless of whether any minds are changed.

 

[Subyman]

I grew up in a town of 7k, is that small?

 

[JSt0rm]

I grew up in a town of 7k, is that small?

Yeah but we were always talking about cities :hmm: here let's go down this road yeah...

City - Towns, Villages and Cities - Wikia
cities.wikia.com/wiki/City
A city is an urban area, differentiated from a town, village, or hamlet by size, population density, importance, or legal status. In most parts of the world cities are ...