Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[SpatiallyAware]

Of course, GZ was just out of his truck getting his groceries...
He was never following anyone, he was at Target...

Don't want concerned neighbors keeping an eye on you? Don't go skulking around neighborhoods, peering into garages and between houses, with hoodie on in deep cover, swaying around like you're on drugs. Simple as that.


As much as you hate it, that is never going to change... Some useless thug, hoodie on in deep cover, casing houses... Is going to arouse suspicion. If said thug viciously attacks said concerned neighbor, then they have every right to shoot them.


Society is sick and tired of useless trash thugs. Make the specific choice to act like a thug, look like a thug.... don't be surprised when you're treated like a thug.


Law-abiding society is done with this thug culture trash.

 

[spidey07]

It is glaringly obvious to most here that GZ did not murder TM and will be acquitted of that. When is the likely jury verdict going to be read so that we can get the riots over with and put this to bed?

Probably july/august. Right in the super heat of the summer when they tend to riot the worst. Would have been better to schedule it during the winter, less riots that way.

 

[werepossum]

SNIP
Yes, you should love it, because it's correct. From GZs perspective, he was indeed keeping and eye on a suspicious character. And, at the same exact time, we could assume that from TMs perspective, some wacko was stalking him. Do you understand that they can both be right in their own context at the same time?

Chuck

This to me is the crux of the matter. Both men took what seemed, given what they could have known, to be reasonable actions. Yet because of misconceptions on both parts, the situation ended with one man being beaten and charged with murder, and one man dead.

I get what you're saying, GZ "thought" in his mind he was doing the "proper" thing, even though he was aware it was not suggested he do so, it turns out he was wrong, IMO.

It certainly turned out badly for everyone involved, but his intention, to keep a suspicious character in sight until the police could speak with them, was noble. One SHOULD look out for one's neighbors and report suspicious characters, and keep them in sight. This case shows the dangers in doing so, especially in getting too close to suspicious characters or in going into closed areas with limited visibility. It also shows the dangers in not having adequate tools to resolve conflicts without violence. Had Martin kept a cooler head, or had Zimmerman politely identified himself and his purpose, this would probably have been a non-encounter with no one harmed as neither Zimmerman nor Martin have a documented history of violence.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

<snip>


I think from Martin's behavior that it's crystal clear he did not know Zimmerman was armed.

Hopefully other little thugs take this as a lesson to not viciously attack innocent people.

The numbers of conceal carry permits have gone WAY up over the years. You never know which potential victim might be carrying a gun. Grandma's, NW people, the lady walking her dog... They need to think twice before knocking someone to the ground and viciously assaulting them.

 

[soundforbjt]

This to me is the crux of the matter. Both men took what seemed, given what they could have known, to be reasonable actions. Yet because of misconceptions on both parts, the situation ended with one man being beaten and charged with murder, and one man dead.


It certainly turned out badly for everyone involved, but his intention, to keep a suspicious character in sight until the police could speak with them, was noble. One SHOULD look out for one's neighbors and report suspicious characters, and keep them in sight. This case shows the dangers in doing so, especially in getting too close to suspicious characters or in going into closed areas with limited visibility. It also shows the dangers in not having adequate tools to resolve conflicts without violence. Had Martin kept a cooler head, or had Zimmerman politely identified himself and his purpose, this would probably have been a non-encounter with no one harmed as neither Zimmerman nor Martin have a documented history of violence.

Zimmerman does have a documented history of violence.

There's nothing "noble" about ignoring NW "guidlines" and police dispatcher advice, at that point, you're acting on your own and "deserve" the consequences of your actions.

 

[spidey07]

Zimmerman does have a documented history of violence.

There's nothing "noble" about ignoring NW "guidlines" and police dispacther advice, at that point, you're acting on your own and "deserve" the consequences of your actions.

See right there? Zimmerman "deserved" the brutal and vicious beatdown. He had it coming to him by golly! Cracker should have stayed in his car when the black man was walking!

The only logical conclusion is martin supporters are extreme racists, it is the only way they can in their heads justifiably ignore facts, truth, evidence and reality.

Care to provide any evidence martin didn't commit a forcible felony and was not an imminent threat when shot by the defenseless victim he straddled on his back? I keep asking, nobody has provided one single shred of evidence contrary to these facts.

 

[soundforbjt]

See right there? Zimmerman "deserved" the brutal and vicious beatdown. He had it coming to him by golly! Cracker should have stayed in his car when the black man was walking!

The only logical conclusion is martin supporters are extreme racists, it is the only way they can in their heads justifiably ignore facts, truth, evidence and reality.

Care to provide any evidence martin didn't commit a forcible felony and was not an imminent threat when shot by the defenseless victim he straddled on his back? I keep asking, nobody has provided one single shred of evidence contrary to these facts.

Thanks for lulz...it's been a bleak morning here. No GZ deserves being charged, he took a life. The court will decide whether he's innocent or guilty, not you.

 

[spidey07]

Thanks for lulz...it's been a bleak morning here. No GZ deserves being charged, he took a life. The court will decide whether he's innocent or guilty, not you.

According to state law he should have never been arrested.

Care to provide any evidence zimmerman committed a crime when all evidence proves self defense?

 

[soundforbjt]

According to state law he should have never been arrested.

Care to provide any evidence zimmerman committed a crime when all evidence proves self defense?

The court will decide whether he's innocent or guilty, not you.

What don't you understand?

 

[spidey07]

What don't you understand?

By law, it should have never made it to a court and he should have never been charged. What don't you understand about that?

Are you ready to present a single shred of evidence zimmerman committed any crime in the face of overwhelming evidence that proves self defense including eye witnesses, ballistics, physical evidence?

C'mon..JUST ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE THIS WASN'T SELF DEFENSE!!!!

 

[Druidx]

Zimmerman does have a documented history of violence.

There's nothing "noble" about ignoring NW "guidlines" and police dispatcher advice, at that point, you're acting on your own and "deserve" the consequences of your actions.

Specifically what guideline do you claim he ignored? Proof?
What proof do you have he ignore dispatch?

If you're now claiming GZ deserved a beatdown, then I’m sure you’ll agree TM deserved to be shot.

 

[chucky2]

And we don't have any real proof of what GZ did after he got off the phone with the dispatcher. TM was apparently talking on the phone still with DeeDee, that's how he was spending his time, the same as he was when GZ "profiled" him.

Why do we need proof what GZ did? He was way behind TM (or at least should have been if TM ran) so its irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he was talking to DeeDee. You quote profiled him like it's a bad thing. It's not. When you're in a neighborhood that's had bad activity in it from one type of aggressor, you profile based on the attributes of that aggressor. Does this mean innocent (or, innocent at the time) black males will be profiled because they fit the description of the aggressors? Yep. Does that suck for the innocent black males? Yep. Is that the profilers problem? Nope. Societys problem? Nope. Them's just the breaks...

You seem mad that GZ "profiled" TM, why is that?

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

To me this is the flip side of arguing that Zimmerman had no right to leave his truck. Martin had no obligation to run home; he had a perfect right to be walking around in the neighborhood in which he lived. It's entirely possible that having gotten out of Zimmerman's sight he then felt safe and continued his conversation, either later blundering into Zimmerman or, finding himself pursued, lost his temper and/or decided to confront Zimmerman.

Right, I totally agree. TM had no obligation to run home at all. But to say he was a scared little innocent boy who was traumatized by the bad evil hulking GZ and that he felt he needed to run from him sorta flies in the face of, once he gets out of sight, welp, I'm good now, no need to worry about him at all.

And, even if that's true, where is he? He should be easily caught up to and seen by GZ. That's not on the recording of GZ I don't think, and if he'd lost him when he ran, and then reacquired TM, he'd have said something, not, nothing. (did it last that long with 911? I can't remember)

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

Zimmerman does have a documented history of violence.

There's nothing "noble" about ignoring NW "guidlines" and police dispatcher advice, at that point, you're acting on your own and "deserve" the consequences of your actions.

Wow...quoted. Just...wow...

 

[chucky2]

This to me is the crux of the matter. Both men took what seemed, given what they could have known, to be reasonable actions. Yet because of misconceptions on both parts, the situation ended with one man being beaten and charged with murder, and one man dead./QUOTE]

Yeah, to me I really would love to know - and, we'll never know unless something crazy happens, like DeeDee coming out and saying she lied and that TM told her he was going to jump this crazy fool...which will never happen - exactly what TM was doing with all that time he had to get away. GZ is at best a trot from his truck into the complex, and then, walking around to find TM/whatever. TM on the other hand should have been far away from GZ at that point. So, HowTF did TM and GZ meet up with that much of a head start and supposed fear level of TM? Just makes no real sense...

The beating is clear, the shooting is clear. What's not clear is all the between time. Really F'ing too bad we don't have like a security video of the complex at that time...

Chuck

 

[werepossum]

Right, I totally agree. TM had no obligation to run home at all. But to say he was a scared little innocent boy who was traumatized by the bad evil hulking GZ and that he felt he needed to run from him sorta flies in the face of, once he gets out of sight, welp, I'm good now, no need to worry about him at all.

And, even if that's true, where is he? He should be easily caught up to and seen by GZ. That's not on the recording of GZ I don't think, and if he'd lost him when he ran, and then reacquired TM, he'd have said something, not, nothing. (did it last that long with 911? I can't remember)

Chuck

Agreed. And I suspect Martin was merely wandering around, talking to Dee Dee without really paying attention to where he was - although that's totally a guess.

Yeah, to me I really would love to know - and, we'll never know unless something crazy happens, like DeeDee coming out and saying she lied and that TM told her he was going to jump this crazy fool...which will never happen - exactly what TM was doing with all that time he had to get away. GZ is at best a trot from his truck into the complex, and then, walking around to find TM/whatever. TM on the other hand should have been far away from GZ at that point. So, HowTF did TM and GZ meet up with that much of a head start and supposed fear level of TM? Just makes no real sense...

The beating is clear, the shooting is clear. What's not clear is all the between time. Really F'ing too bad we don't have like a security video of the complex at that time...

Chuck

I'm guessing that Martin was talking and walking more or less at random and that Zimmerman was looking for Martin - preferably not at close range - as well as looking for signs of where he went or possible burglary. Given that both men had earlier decided not to confront, I see no reason to assume that either would intentionally confront later. It's worth pointing out though that both made the decision to confront at that point, as either could have fled or taken steps to defuse the situation.

 

[Silver Prime]

By law, it should have never made it to a court and he should have never been charged. What don't you understand about that?

Are you ready to present a single shred of evidence zimmerman committed any crime in the face of overwhelming evidence that proves self defense including eye witnesses, ballistics, physical evidence?

C'mon..JUST ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE THIS WASN'T SELF DEFENSE!!!!

Ding ding ding, you're a winner...lets show him what he won...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o29VoxtsFk


Spider man, spider man
Does whatever a spider can
Spins a web any size
Catches thieves just like flies
Look out!
There comes the spider man

Is he strong? Listen, bud
He's got radioactive blood
Can he swing from a thread?
Take a look overhead
Hey, there!
There goes the spider man

In the chill of the night
At the scene of a crime
Like a streak of light
He arrives just in time

Spider man, spider man
Friendly neighborhood spider man
Wealth and fame He ignores
Action is his reward
Look out!
Here comes the spider man

To him, life's a big bang up
Whenever there's a hang up
You'll find the spider man.

 

[werepossum]

Hopefully other little thugs take this as a lesson to not viciously attack innocent people.

The numbers of conceal carry permits have gone WAY up over the years. You never know which potential victim might be carrying a gun. Grandma's, NW people, the lady walking her dog... They need to think twice before knocking someone to the ground and viciously assaulting them.

Hopefully people will take this as a lesson to not viciously attack innocent people AND to not lightly get into situations where you may have to shoot your way out.

Zimmerman does have a documented history of violence.

There's nothing "noble" about ignoring NW "guidlines" and police dispatcher advice, at that point, you're acting on your own and "deserve" the consequences of your actions.

I disagree with, well, all of that.

 

[lotus503]

Why do we need proof what GZ did? He was way behind TM (or at least should have been if TM ran) so its irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he was talking to DeeDee. You quote profiled him like it's a bad thing. It's not. When you're in a neighborhood that's had bad activity in it from one type of aggressor, you profile based on the attributes of that aggressor. Does this mean innocent (or, innocent at the time) black males will be profiled because they fit the description of the aggressors? Yep. Does that suck for the innocent black males? Yep. Is that the profilers problem? Nope. Societys problem? Nope. Them's just the breaks...

You seem mad that GZ "profiled" TM, why is that?

Chuck

I don't have an issue with Zimmerman calling the police based on profiling of recent events.

I have a problem with him taking actions to escalate a situation but taking none to deescalated it.

He didn't identify himself, he didn't tell martin why he was following him or looking for him at any point during the course of doing so.

He was acting aggressive towards martin by tracking him by car and then by foot and then gave no indication why he was doing it.

He had a right to defend himself but I think he also had an obligation to do what he could to not appear a threat, he didn't.

This is why the NW guidelines are what they are because the police likely would have done all of those things and martin would have known who he was dealing with and why.

How exactly the fight broke out is questionable, Zimmerman's account is somewhat unreliable and does contradict with known evidence. Many excuse this by stating fights are fluid and memories are bad which is very possible, its also possible there is more to the confrontation then what Zimmerman states.

What this boils down to is what the state can prove beyond reasonable doubt.

I think he walks, just like I think in a duty to retreat state he gets manslaughter.

If martin attacked him like he states and evidence suggests then it should be pretty easy to work through that at trial and he will walk.

But given the fact he decided to not go forward with immunity tells me one of two things

1. Defense doesn't have the money
2. Defense doesn't feel good about the burden of proving defense to fall on
them. that would likely require Zimmerman to testify and I bet the last
thing they want is Zimmerman on the stand.


by going to trial they get to pick apart the states case vs the state picking apart their defense.

 

[chucky2]

Agreed. And I suspect Martin was merely wandering around, talking to Dee Dee without really paying attention to where he was - although that's totally a guess.


I'm guessing that Martin was talking and walking more or less at random and that Zimmerman was looking for Martin - preferably not at close range - as well as looking for signs of where he went or possible burglary. Given that both men had earlier decided not to confront, I see no reason to assume that either would intentionally confront later. It's worth pointing out though that both made the decision to confront at that point, as either could have fled or taken steps to defuse the situation.

That's fine, I can get onboard with that. But...

...look at this map (first one I saw on Google Images):

You can't be aimlessly walking around talking to DeeDee and not be seen by GZ when GZ enters the complex behind him. The only way that's possible is if TM took the cut through, and was to the right of the rght side buildings, and GZ stayed in between the left and right side buildings where the struggle happened. If that's true, then TM is aimlessly walking aroud the far side of the rightside buildings and comes back the way he went in the cut through, or, he's all the way down to the end of the next building, where he lives. To me it's unlikely he went through the cut through...no point. Better to walk right between the left and right side buildings if some guy is chasing you.

So if that's true, then when GZ makes it into the complex following TM, he should insta see him. If TM turns around at all and looks up, he sees GZ. One wonders how long the staring contest went on...

Chuck

 

[werepossum]

I don't have an issue with Zimmerman calling the police based on profiling of recent events.

I have a problem with him taking actions to escalate a situation but taking none to deescalated it.

He didn't identify himself, he didn't tell martin why he was following him or looking for him at any point during the course of doing so.

He was acting aggressive towards martin by tracking him by car and then by foot and then gave no indication why he was doing it.

He had a right to defend himself but I think he also had an obligation to do what he could to not appear a threat, he didn't.

This is why the NW guidelines are what they are because the police likely would have done all of those things and martin would have known who he was dealing with and why.

How exactly the fight broke out is questionable, Zimmerman's account is somewhat unreliable and does contradict with known evidence. Many excuse this by stating fights are fluid and memories are bad which is very possible, its also possible there is more to the confrontation then what Zimmerman states.

What this boils down to is what the state can prove beyond reasonable doubt.

I think he walks, just like I think in a duty to retreat state he gets manslaughter.

If martin attacked him like he states and evidence suggests then it should be pretty easy to work through that at trial and he will walk.

But given the fact he decided to not go forward with immunity tells me one of two things

1. Defense doesn't have the money
2. Defense doesn't feel good about the burden of proving defense to fall on
them. that would likely require Zimmerman to testify and I bet the last
thing they want is Zimmerman on the stand.


by going to trial they get to pick apart the states case vs the state picking apart their defense.

I think the reason boils down to knowing that no judge in the state is going to dismiss this case short of trial for race relations, and your last point is certainly valid as well. If they are going to go for immunity, much better to do so after all the testimony rather than up front anyway. And personally, I have mixed feelings about his receiving civil immunity anyway, assuming he walks. I totally support the reason behind civil immunity, but I can make an argument that even if Zimmerman broke no laws, he had some culpability in setting up the situation whereby Martin attacked him, especially given that Martin was only seventeen.

 

[chucky2]

I don't have an issue with Zimmerman calling the police based on profiling of recent events.

I have a problem with him taking actions to escalate a situation but taking none to deescalated it.

He didn't identify himself, he didn't tell martin why he was following him or looking for him at any point during the course of doing so.

It's raining and I'm in my truck dry with a cell to call police? I'll just call thanks, no need to expose myself to someone when I want the police there to check them out anyways. Dry out, daytime, people will be around? Yeah, I'd probably drive up and maybe ask what they're up to of if they're lost (so they know someone is watching them). I really don't blame GZ for this, just like I don't really blame TM for taking off.

He was acting aggressive towards martin by tracking him by car and then by foot and then gave no indication why he was doing it.

From TM perspective, sure. From GZ perspective, he was acting prudently.

He had a right to defend himself but I think he also had an obligation to do what he could to not appear a threat, he didn't.

This is why the NW guidelines are what they are because the police likely would have done all of those things and martin would have known who he was dealing with and why.

He could have handled it somewhat better, sure. He could have rolled right up to TM, rolled down his window, and said, NW watch! What are you doing? If GZ is right and this is a criminal, now he's right by a criminal with his window rolled down, exposing himself to needless danger when instead he can just hang back and observe (which would be getting stalked from TM perspective). What's interesting is that GZ felt either safe and/or mad enough about yet another suspicious character getting away that he got out of his truck to follow, but, wasn't going to roll up and ID as NW. Strange, yet, within the realm of reason. I think GZ thought he'd never be close to TM after TM took off, that he would have just a chance of seeing where he was running to to aid police, nothing more. Surprise surprise, that's not what happened...

 

[werepossum]

That's fine, I can get onboard with that. But...

...look at this map (first one I saw on Google Images):

You can't be aimlessly walking around talking to DeeDee and not be seen by GZ when GZ enters the complex behind him. The only way that's possible is if TM took the cut through, and was to the right of the rght side buildings, and GZ stayed in between the left and right side buildings where the struggle happened. If that's true, then TM is aimlessly walking aroud the far side of the rightside buildings and comes back the way he went in the cut through, or, he's all the way down to the end of the next building, where he lives. To me it's unlikely he went through the cut through...no point. Better to walk right between the left and right side buildings if some guy is chasing you.

So if that's true, then when GZ makes it into the complex following TM, he should insta see him. If TM turns around at all and looks up, he sees GZ. One wonders how long the staring contest went on...

Chuck

If one posits that Martin went 1-2-3-4-5-6, then to the right of the houses, then back to the center around the tee, then he could have been walking toward his house as Zimmerman was walking in the opposite direction. Assuming Zimmerman was not using his small flashlight or was shining it into the backs of the houses, it's possible that they would have met there. Martin would be between Zimmerman and his truck, Zimmerman would be between Martin and his home, which would have lessened each's inclination to retreat.

 

[chucky2]

If one posits that Martin went 1-2-3-4-5-6, then to the right of the houses, then back to the center around the tee, then he could have been walking toward his house as Zimmerman was walking in the opposite direction. Assuming Zimmerman was not using his small flashlight or was shining it into the backs of the houses, it's possible that they would have met there. Martin would be between Zimmerman and his truck, Zimmerman would be between Martin and his home, which would have lessened each's inclination to retreat.

If he did that, he'd be at 6 which is lets say his house, then you're saying back towards the center of the T from his house via how? 6 (his house)-5-4 or to the right of the right side houses then in the direction of 5-4, then through the cut through, and then now back to 5-6? Basically a rectangle?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Zimmerman does have a documented history of violence.

He was convicted of a violent crime?

There's nothing "noble" about ignoring NW "guidlines" and police dispatcher advice, at that point, you're acting on your own and "deserve" the consequences of your actions.

LMAO!!!! At least we know where you're coming from on the issue and why you no longer be taken seriously as well as treated like any other internet troll.