Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[soundforbjt]

I love how someone stopping then going a different direction is seen by GZ critics as " Still Chasing"

When did I say that? I've always said still following or looking, iirc.

 

[chucky2]

IF what GZ did was "proper", why is it a rule/guidline in the NW, that you should never do it? It may not be illegal, but as you can see by this case, it's not the "smart" thing to do. Why do you think NW has rules/guidlines to begin with? Because a citizen is not the police and should never ACT as if they are.

Because the Neighborhood Watch organization doesn't want non-LEO taking matters into their own hands that are going to put them in a position to be harmed...and ironically, potentially harm others by their actions. I'm sure NW also wants to limit any liability they have as well. Combine all 3 of those and it's completely understandable why they have that in their guidelines. Here's your problem though: GZ is not the NW organization, they don't own him like property. GZ is a US citizen able to go on public property legally. He can follow someone, legally. Him doing so if he deems it something he needs to do is proper. Why? Because in the context of GZ (see my previously stated context of GZ) that night, that was the proper thing to do. Do you not understand this? Do you not understand that it would have been just as legal and proper from TMs perspective to go up to GZ and ask him WTF are you following me for?

I love how running and chasing is seen by the GZ supporters as "keeping an eye on".

Yes, you should love it, because it's correct. From GZs perspective, he was indeed keeping and eye on a suspicious character. And, at the same exact time, we could assume that from TMs perspective, some wacko was stalking him. Do you understand that they can both be right in their own context at the same time?

Chuck

 

[Druidx]

When did I say that? I've always said still following or looking, iirc.

Fair enough

I love how someone stopping then going a different direction is seen by GZ critics as " Still following"

 

[soundforbjt]

Because the Neighborhood Watch organization doesn't want non-LEO taking matters into their own hands that are going to put them in a position to be harmed...and ironically, potentially harm others by their actions. I'm sure NW also wants to limit any liability they have as well. Combine all 3 of those and it's completely understandable why they have that in their guidelines. Here's your problem though: GZ is not the NW organization, they don't own him like property. GZ is a US citizen able to go on public property legally. He can follow someone, legally. Him doing so if he deems it something he needs to do is proper. Why? Because in the context of GZ (see my previously stated context of GZ) that night, that was the proper thing to do. Do you not understand this? Do you not understand that it would have been just as legal and proper from TMs perspective to go up to GZ and ask him WTF are you following me for?



Yes, you should love it, because it's correct. From GZs perspective, he was indeed keeping and eye on a suspicious character. And, at the same exact time, we could assume that from TMs perspective, some wacko was stalking him. Do you understand that they can both be right in their own context at the same time?

Chuck

I get what you're saying, GZ "thought" in his mind he was doing the "proper" thing, even though he was aware it was not suggested he do so, it turns out he was wrong, IMO.

 

[soundforbjt]

Fair enough

I love how "someone stopping then going a different direction" is seen by GZ critics as " Still following"

Now all you have to do is show me the evidence for the above without using GZ's statements.

 

[emperus]

That's what GZ said, and it was confirmed by Serino (that it was windy that evening) in one of the interviews.

What interview?

 

[chucky2]

I get what you're saying, GZ "thought" in his mind he was doing the "proper" thing, even though he was aware it was not suggested he do so, it turns out he was wrong, IMO.

No quotes needed, he both really did think that and it was in fact proper. While we don't know if he was for sure wrong (TM may very well have been up to no good later that night or later while living there), he was wrong about TM in the timeframe he saw him. The problem is, what he was wrong about was reinforced when TM took off. Regardless of who started the physical altercation or if TM was on top or not, TM didn't really do himself any favors that night by running from GZ. Or, if was indeed going to run, he should have ran back to his place and stayed either in there, or, right there.

For whatever reason, TM took an entirely different approach and that ended up costing him his life.

 

[Darkman]

Notices of Taking Deposition for April 25, 26

on 01 May 2013.

The following documents have been filed with the Court:

NOTICE OF TAKING DEPOSITIONS, April 25, 2013 - http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/ntd_042513.pdf

NOTICE OF TAKING DEPOSITIONS, April 26, 2013 - http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/ntd_042613.pdf

Source: http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/156-notices-of-taking-deposition-for-april-25-26

 

[emperus]

GZ said he wasn't running or walking he was like skipping...

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Now all you have to do is show me the evidence for the above without using GZ's statements.

Maybe you could show us the evidence you have that even the prosecution doesn't have in this case.

 

[Druidx]

Now all you have to do is show me the evidence for the above without using GZ's statements.

You seem to forget who carries the burden of proof. If you want to ignore GZ statements, what do you have left?

 

[chucky2]

GZ said he wasn't running or walking he was like skipping...

Which would make sense if anyone has seen how black (and many other ethnicities) males dress today, and, consequently, attempt to move fast while wearing such clothing. It's more like a quick shuffle, although I've seen some impressive one handed somewhat runs...

 

[soundforbjt]

No quotes needed, he both really did think that and it was in fact proper. While we don't know if he was for sure wrong (TM may very well have been up to no good later that night or later while living there), he was wrong about TM in the timeframe he saw him. The problem is, what he was wrong about was reinforced when TM took off. Regardless of who started the physical altercation or if TM was on top or not, TM didn't really do himself any favors that night by running from GZ. Or, if was indeed going to run, he should have ran back to his place and stayed either in there, or, right there.

For whatever reason, TM took an entirely different approach and that ended up costing him his life.

So, you don't think that GZ, first following slow "creeping" in his truck, then stopping and talking on the phone while intently watching should not bother anyone enough to want to get away from the "possible threat" by running? You really think that was a bad idea on TM's part? I think that's what most people teach their kids.

And we don't know if TM took "an entirely different approach", since no one has proof/evidence of how the two met/altercation started.

 

[chucky2]

So, you don't think that GZ, first following slow "creeping" in his truck, then stopping and talking on the phone while intently watching should not bother anyone enough to want to get away from the "possible threat" by running? You really think that was a bad idea on TM's part? I think that what most people teach their kids.

I think it's acceptable I don't know if it'd be preferable. I'd have to have been there and seen what it looked like from TMs perspective. I completely agree that from TMs perspective, GZ could easily be taken as a threat, and hence, the run away from him.

Where this completely collapses for TM is he then should be at home or right at home before GZ is even at the first set of houses. TM is a 17 year old non obese male. There is zero reason for him if he was scared/worried about this guy to not have been back inside or right at this place by the time GZ was even remotely close to him. We can't have it both ways: He was terrified/scared/worried about GZ so he ran...but not back to his place a short few 10's of seconds away...no no, he just...ran for a sec and then went back to...something...it'd be something because GZ would have seen him if he was just back to walking normally.

To me this is the most damning part of TMs actions prior to any physical altercation. Huge amounts of unaccounted for time.

Chuck

 

[Druidx]

GZ said he wasn't running or walking he was like skipping...

It must have been power skipping since he was to out of breath to run away from the big bad scary man who was looking crazy, according to DeeDee.

 

[spidey07]

Now all you have to do is show me the evidence for the above without using GZ's statements.

To do that you would have to be ignoring EVIDENCE. GZ statements are EVIDENCE.

Until such time that any evidence proves his statements not true, his statements are FACT according to law.

 

[soundforbjt]

I think it's acceptable I don't know if it'd be preferable. I'd have to have been there and seen what it looked like from TMs perspective. I completely agree that from TMs perspective, GZ could easily be taken as a threat, and hence, the run away from him.

Where this completely collapses for TM is he then should be at home or right at home before GZ is even at the first set of houses. TM is a 17 year old non obese male. There is zero reason for him if he was scared/worried about this guy to not have been back inside or right at this place by the time GZ was even remotely close to him. We can't have it both ways: He was terrified/scared/worried about GZ so he ran...but not back to his place a short few 10's of seconds away...no no, he just...ran for a sec and then went back to...something...it'd be something because GZ would have seen him if he was just back to walking normally.

To me this is the most damning part of TMs actions prior to any physical altercation. Huge amounts of unaccounted for time.

Chuck

The "threat" was in a truck at the time TM ran. It was probably TM's reasoning that GZ would not follow on foot (therefore in TM's mind) not a real threat, just some "creepy" guy. The idea that GZ was a "real" threat in TM's mind is probably when he saw GZ on foot with his flashlight.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Are you all ever going to acknowledge the fact that zimmerman did not 'follow' or 'chase' or 'stalk' trayvon in any way?


The ONLY way for this altercation to happen is if trayvon doubled back to the "T". At that point, if anything zimmerman was the one being "followed".

 

[soundforbjt]

Are you all ever going to acknowledge the fact that zimmerman did not 'follow' or 'chase' or 'stalk' trayvon in any way?


The ONLY way for this altercation to happen is if trayvon doubled back to the "T". At that point, if anything zimmerman was the one being "followed".

Of course, GZ was just out of his truck getting his groceries...
He was never following anyone, he was at Target...

 

[spidey07]

Your what if, even though there is no evidence of any following, doesn't even matter. Z-man can follow him all he wants.

But one cannot viciously and brutally attack somebody, mount them and slam their head into the concrete. That is a forcible felony and HIGHLY illegal, it automatically lawfully allows the victim to shoot as is exactly what happened in this case.

All the what ifs can be dispelled with fact, truth and evidence. Even IF zimmerman was someway initial aggressor (and there is zero evidence he was), he is still lawfully allowed to defend himself with lethal force when he is on his back, unable to retreat after being brutally, viciously, repeatedly beaten about the face, head and skull having already suffered great bodily harm.

 

[chucky2]

The "threat" was in a truck at the time TM ran.

Agreed. From TM perspective, GZ following him in his truck could very well be seen as a threat.

It was probably TM's reasoning that GZ would not follow on foot (therefore in TM's mind) not a real threat, just some "creepy" guy. The idea that GZ was a "real" threat in TM's mind is probably when he saw GZ on foot with his flashlight.

Could very well be. But if I'm going to jet into the buildings away from the creepy threat following me in the truck, I'm going to do one of 3 things:

1.) Go far enough to the buildings to be far enough from the guy that if he gets out, and this whole time I'd be sneaking some looks back to keep an eye on the creepy stalker guy, I've got a far enough lead on him he ain't have a prayer catching me.

2.) Go past the building into the complex thereby losing my view of the road and the creepy stalker guy, but now be way far ahead of him...but I'm still occasionally looking back to make sure he ain't coming up on me. No way am I not checking behind me, but in this #2 I've definitely stopped running once into the building complex, meaning, when GZ comes on through, he's going to see me and I'm going to see him.

3.) Just run home, I don't even need to look behind me yet I'll probably do so.

We know TM didn't do #3, or, if he did, he came back. If he did #2, then they both should have seen each other unless TM took a route really not back towards his place. #1 doesn't sound like it happened according to GZ.

We're back to WTF did TM do and how did he spend all that time from when he ran to where he and GZ met up.

Chuck

 

[soundforbjt]

Agreed. From TM perspective, GZ following him in his truck could very well be seen as a threat.



Could very well be. But if I'm going to jet into the buildings away from the creepy threat following me in the truck, I'm going to do one of 3 things:

1.) Go far enough to the buildings to be far enough from the guy that if he gets out, and this whole time I'd be sneaking some looks back to keep an eye on the creepy stalker guy, I've got a far enough lead on him he ain't have a prayer catching me.

2.) Go past the building into the complex thereby losing my view of the road and the creepy stalker guy, but now be way far ahead of him...but I'm still occasionally looking back to make sure he ain't coming up on me. No way am I not checking behind me, but in this #2 I've definitely stopped running once into the building complex, meaning, when GZ comes on through, he's going to see me and I'm going to see him.

3.) Just run home, I don't even need to look behind me yet I'll probably do so.

We know TM didn't do #3, or, if he did, he came back. If he did #2, then they both should have seen each other unless TM took a route really not back towards his place. #1 doesn't sound like it happened according to GZ.

We're back to WTF did TM do and how did he spend all that time from when he ran to where he and GZ met up.

Chuck

And we don't have any real proof of what GZ did after he got off the phone with the dispatcher. TM was apparently talking on the phone still with DeeDee, that's how he was spending his time, the same as he was when GZ "profiled" him.

 

[werepossum]

You clearly didn't read my previous post.

There's not evidence that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. There was clearly a fight in which Trayvon had the better end. But to say he attacked Zimmerman is to say with certainty that's how it went down.

Since none of us know for certain how the fight started, it's literally a fallacy to say Trayvon attacked Zimmerman since you dont know that happened.

So, here you are responding to my post pretending you're somehow correcting me when in fact you're simply perpetuating speculation and things you know not to be true which we otherwise refer to as lying. That's what you're doing.

You know there's no evidence Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, yet you post to the contrary... so you're simply lying.

That's what you're doing. You're lying.

A FIGHT implies two parties trading blows; two persons attack each other. An ASSAULT is one person attacking another. One cannot simply attack someone and declare it a fight, otherwise there would be no law against assault because every assault would be a fight in which both parties are equally at fault. This is true even if someone disrespects you, or gets too close to you, or looks at you, or has no business getting out of his vehicle.

Again, there MAY have been a fight, but we have no evidence of a fight occurring because the definition of a fight requires that Zimmerman be throwing punches or otherwise engaging in violence. We absolutely know that Martin attacked Zimmerman because Zimmerman had a broken nose, bruises, and lacerations consistent with his story. Zimmerman MAY have attacked Martin, possibly even first, but again, we have absolutely no evidence to support that theory and Martin cannot make that claim, being dead.

Because no one has claimed that TM had a mental breakdown; the opposite is that you have TM acting irrationally to meet your criteria.

Nothing was stated that Zimmerman had a gun; not by John and not by Martin.

If one is fighting for a weapon and the potential for assistance shows up; do you not ask for help and indicate why?

Martin ignored John!
Martin did not provide any indication that he knew about the weapon. To DeeDee or John!
There is no evidence at all that Martin tried to get control of the weapon. (DNA/fingerprints)

You mount a person; beat his head and face instead of trying to control the weapon that scares you.

Talk about your purple drink

I think from Martin's behavior that it's crystal clear he did not know Zimmerman was armed.

 

[werepossum]

I think it's acceptable I don't know if it'd be preferable. I'd have to have been there and seen what it looked like from TMs perspective. I completely agree that from TMs perspective, GZ could easily be taken as a threat, and hence, the run away from him.

Where this completely collapses for TM is he then should be at home or right at home before GZ is even at the first set of houses. TM is a 17 year old non obese male. There is zero reason for him if he was scared/worried about this guy to not have been back inside or right at this place by the time GZ was even remotely close to him. We can't have it both ways: He was terrified/scared/worried about GZ so he ran...but not back to his place a short few 10's of seconds away...no no, he just...ran for a sec and then went back to...something...it'd be something because GZ would have seen him if he was just back to walking normally.

To me this is the most damning part of TMs actions prior to any physical altercation. Huge amounts of unaccounted for time.

Chuck

To me this is the flip side of arguing that Zimmerman had no right to leave his truck. Martin had no obligation to run home; he had a perfect right to be walking around in the neighborhood in which he lived. It's entirely possible that having gotten out of Zimmerman's sight he then felt safe and continued his conversation, either later blundering into Zimmerman or, finding himself pursued, lost his temper and/or decided to confront Zimmerman.

 

[Doppel]

It is glaringly obvious to most here that GZ did not murder TM and will be acquitted of that. When is the likely jury verdict going to be read so that we can get the riots over with and put this to bed?