Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Londo_Jowo]

I mean Londo... FFS... A few pages back I posted this :



To preempt any unneeded drivvle and you of all people quote post my post and go on about things as if you'd read a completely different post.

And then in the following pages you went on to state such non facts as Trayvon starting the fight despite none of us knowing that.

That's what you post... you post things that aren't true and you pretend they are.

I post facts and talk about them, then laugh at people like you w\ poor reading comprehension and racist tendencies.

Thank you for finally admitting you've been trolling this thread with fairy tales.

 

[soundforbjt]

I would absolutely LOVE for that jewelry to be laid out on a table for all burglary victims from GZ's neighborhood to have a look at and see if any of them identify any of it. how many reports of stolen jewelry in the community was there?



My standard is always to apply common sense. My common sense about GZ's situation is that he was attacked by a delinquent whom he shot in self-defense, it strikes me as a very basic, obvious conclusion.

I've not been one of those harping about innocent until proven guilty endlessly, though I respect what they're saying. I agree with those who've said that sometimes people are quite obviously guilty.

I think what happened that night between TM and GZ is really quite obvious. The even itself has some interesting wrinkles but is not overly complicated... people are making it out to be more complex than it is due to racial-blockages in their minds or inability to update their initial perceptions given to them by the media. IMO.

Likewise with the jewelry, this is not complicated. Can I be 100% sure it was stolen, and stolen by Trayvon? Nope, but I can be 99% sure.

bolded...

 

[Geosurface]

He wasn't suspended for the jewelry.

If my recollection is correct (and feel free to correct it if it isn't) the only info we have about TM's suspensions comes from TM's family.

Or at least, I believe it's true that we don't know the official reasons for all of his suspensions. Maybe we got the official reason for one, and a reason Sybrina Fulton felt comfortable giving for another... but I believe there was some change on this. Didn't she and Crump first say it was tardiness? Then it changed to the pot baggy or whatever?

I think you're being naive if you think we have all the details about why he was suspended each time. Hell, we still have no idea what prompted him to have to switch to a second high school.

You need 10 cc's of cynicism, stat!

how many reports of stolen jewelry in the community was there?

No idea. Remember that a lot of the details of this case, particularly stuff related to Trayvon's school records, but also other things... have never come out, and have been actively hidden in some cases. If the press were doing a better job on this case, we'd know a lot more.

 

[soundforbjt]

If my recollection is correct (and feel free to correct it if it isn't) the only info we have about TM's suspensions comes from TM's family.

Or at least, I believe it's true that we don't know the official reasons for all of his suspensions. Maybe we got the official reason for one, and a reason Sybrina Fulton felt comfortable giving for another... but I believe there was some change on this. Didn't she and Crump first say it was tardiness? Then it changed to the pot baggy or whatever?

I think you're being naive if you think we have all the details about why he was suspended each time. Hell, we still have no idea what prompted him to have to switch to a second high school.

You need 10 cc's of cynicism, stat!

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...d-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy​

No idea. Remember that a lot of the details of this case, particularly stuff related to Trayvon's school records, but also other things... have never come out, and have been actively hidden in some cases. If the press were doing a better job on this case, we'd know a lot more.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.
A lawyer for the dead teen’s family acknowledged Trayvon had been suspended for graffiti, but said the family knew nothing about the jewelry and the screwdriver.
“It’s completely irrelevant to what happened Feb. 26,” said attorney Benjamin Crump. “They never heard this, and don’t believe it’s true. If it were true, why wouldn’t they call the parents? Why wasn’t he arrested?”
Trayvon, who was a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School, had never been arrested, police and the family have said.
“We think everybody is trying to demonize him,” Crump said.
No evidence ever surfaced that the jewelry was stolen.
“Martin was suspended, warned and dismissed for the graffiti,” according to the report prepared by schools police.
That suspension was followed four months later by another one in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”
The punishment was the third for the teen. On Monday, the family also said Trayvon had earlier been suspended for tardiness and truancy.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I believe the pot suspension was the reason for TM going to his dad's.

 

[Geosurface]

At some point the mechanisms of Florida government decided which side of this case they were on and what they wanted to pursue...

So has there been the motivation and initiative to cross-compare the jewelry between Miami Schools, Miami PD, and Sanford PD? Hell no, I seriously doubt it. Why pursue a lead that might go CONTRARY to the narrative they settled on?

They were sick of being accused of institutional racism, so they set about proving they weren't racist by going after GZ, and ceasing any and all attempts to show that TM might be what he was, a criminal delinquent.

They could've chosen that other path, trying to show "hey, public, this kid wasn't who you thought he was" but that would've been harder, and would've brought even MORE cries of institutional racism as people were like "okay so they test Trayvon for drugs but not GZ! Now they're defaming a dead child and going through his records!!! OMG!!!!" hell, we already got a lot of that even with the very, very light look his past got.

Think anyone at any Florida law enforcement agency put any shoe leather into trying to figure out what that bus driver thing was, if it was anything? I sincerely doubt it.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

450 pages of the same 5 people posting the same tired "arguments", most of which are premised on the idea that the government should do everything for us. It's sickening that most of you seem to have some higher education.

 

[lotus503]

450 pages of the same 5 people posting the same tired "arguments", most of which are premised on the idea that the government should do everything for us. It's sickening that most of you seem to have some higher education.

lol@ the fact you read the last 450 pages

sucker!

 

[Geosurface]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I believe the pot suspension was the reason for TM going to his dad's.

Okay, I stand corrected.

I think the reason he wasn't given a suspension specifically for the jewelry is the same reason he didn't face criminal consequences for it.

He showed clearly he wasn't going to be forthcoming about it, and said the right thing to make it clear to the school police that they weren't going to get anywhere with the issue. If something had matched with a report with Miami Police, something more would've happened with it. The fact that it ended there, worked very well in Trayvon's favor.

So is anyone really naive enough to think that this was the only day something like that was in his backpack?

 

[soundforbjt]

At some point the mechanisms of Florida government decided which side of this case they were on and what they wanted to pursue...

So has there been the motivation and initiative to cross-compare the jewelry between Miami Schools, Miami PD, and Sanford PD? Hell no, I seriously doubt it. Why pursue a lead that might go CONTRARY to the narrative they settled on?

They were sick of being accused of institutional racism, so they set about proving they weren't racist by going after GZ, and ceasing any and all attempts to show that TM might be what he was, a criminal delinquent.

They could've chosen that other path, trying to show "hey, public, this kid wasn't who you thought he was" but that would've been harder, and would've brought even MORE cries of institutional racism as people were like "okay so they test Trayvon for drugs but not GZ! Now they're defaming a dead child and going through his records!!! OMG!!!!" hell, we already got a lot of that even with the very, very light look his past got.

Think anyone at any Florida law enforcement agency put any shoe leather into trying to figure out what that bus driver thing was, if it was anything? I sincerely doubt it.

Why would they waste time on something TM didn't even acknowledge as happening? Did they spend time on GZ's boasting on MySpace of his friends taking a felony rap for him and not ratting him out?

 

[Druidx]

What amazes me is that any reasonable person still believes GZ went to reach for his cell phone. My gosh. That's the most unreasonable thing to believe. HE HAD A GUN!!! Oh yeah right he was going to call police which would have accomplished what exactly? Yeah, let them know the location of the guy who was just about to bash ur brains in. lol..

It amazes me that any reasonable person would believe GZ had his gun out but screamed for help for 40 seconds before using it. Than again, I wouldn't expect a "reasonable" person to argue for days that a Target grocery store wasn't a real grocery store, all just so they could claim GZ lied about being on his way to the grocery store.

 

[Geosurface]

Why would they waste time on something TM didn't even acknowledge as happening? Did they spend time on GZ's boasting on MySpace of his friends taking a felony rap for him and not ratting him out?

Let me be clear on something:

I think both GZ and TM were flawed human beings with both good things and bad things about their character and their past.

I don't view either of them as saints, nor as monsters.

There were no heroes that night and the fact that a young man, who may very well have cleaned up his act later on, lost his life is tragic.

Now, why do I take an interest in the stuff about the goons at 7-11, the drug use, and the jewelry? Because I think it helps us understand what TM's mindset might've been, it helps to lend credence to what GZ thought of TM, and helps us understand why TM might have reacted in the ways he did that night.

I don't find anything illuminating about some post GZ made in 2005 on MySpace or whatever, about not getting caught for something... but if you find that illustrative that he might've been a current or former thug himself who might be the type to grab someone and try to detain them, or take a swing at them? Okay... I don't really buy it but, I am not going to mock you for thinking along those lines.

The problem for me is, I just keep coming back to the physical evidence, the injuries, the ballistics, what John saw, etc... I don't see how anything prior to the situation John saw, with TM in control of GZ beating him as GZ screamed for mercy... can change the fact that shooting at that point was entirely justified.

 

[soundforbjt]

Let me be clear on something:

I think both GZ and TM were flawed human beings with both good things and bad things about their character and their past.

I don't view either of them as saints, nor as monsters.

There were no heroes that night and the fact that a young man, who may very well have cleaned up his act later on, lost his life is tragic.

Now, why do I take an interest in the stuff about the goons at 7-11, the drug use, and the jewelry? Because I think it helps us understand what TM's mindset might've been, it helps to lend credence to what GZ thought of TM, and helps us understand why TM might have reacted in the ways he did that night.

I don't find anything illuminating about some post GZ made in 2005 on MySpace or whatever, about not getting caught for something... but if you find that illustrative that he might've been a current or former thug himself who might be the type to grab someone and try to detain them, or take a swing at them? Okay... I don't really buy it but, I am not going to mock you for thinking along those lines.

The problem for me is, I just keep coming back to the physical evidence, the injuries, the ballistics, what John saw, etc... I don't see how anything prior to the situation John saw, with TM in control of GZ beating him as GZ screamed for mercy... can change the fact that shooting at that point was entirely justified.

So, cliff notes: Geo thinks everything in TM's past is relevent, But nothing in GZ's is because it didn't happen recently enough. Don't forget GZ had recently started taking mind altering drugs, which he may have been under the influence of that night, but unfortunately he wasn't tested.
No problem with you believing GZ is innocent, that's why there's prosecution and defense...

 

[Geosurface]

So, cliff notes: Geo thinks everything in TM's past is relevent, But nothing in GZ's is because it didn't happen recently enough. Don't forget GZ had recently started taking mind altering drugs, which he may have been under the influence of that night, but unfortunately he wasn't tested.
No problem with you believing GZ is innocent, that's why there's prosecution and defense...

Okay let's say you just managed to completely convince me that GZ was hopped up on Adderal, and a generally horrible thuggish man. Let's say you further convinced me that GZ tried to detain Trayvon.

I'm sorry but that still doesn't justify mounting and pounding as GZ screams in terror and refusing to stop when a third party yells for him to.

So, cliff notes: Geo thinks everything in TM's past is relevent, But nothing in GZ's is because it didn't happen recently enough.

It's not really about how recent the stuff was.

It's that I already have a phone call from GZ, of a long duration... with the phone dispatcher where I get a lot of insight into GZ's mindset and behavior that night. It's not that big of a mystery to me. Trayvon's mindset and behavior are more interesting and require more deduction and bringing in other sources, because we don't have that for him.

 

[lotus503]

Let me be clear on something:

I think both GZ and TM were flawed human beings with both good things and bad things about their character and their past.

I don't view either of them as saints, nor as monsters.

There were no heroes that night and the fact that a young man, who may very well have cleaned up his act later on, lost his life is tragic.

Now, why do I take an interest in the stuff about the goons at 7-11, the drug use, and the jewelry? Because I think it helps us understand what TM's mindset might've been, it helps to lend credence to what GZ thought of TM, and helps us understand why TM might have reacted in the ways he did that night.

I don't find anything illuminating about some post GZ made in 2005 on MySpace or whatever, about not getting caught for something... but if you find that illustrative that he might've been a current or former thug himself who might be the type to grab someone and try to detain them, or take a swing at them? Okay... I don't really buy it but, I am not going to mock you for thinking along those lines.

The problem for me is, I just keep coming back to the physical evidence, the injuries, the ballistics, what John saw, etc... I don't see how anything prior to the situation John saw, with TM in control of GZ beating him as GZ screamed for mercy... can change the fact that shooting at that point was entirely justified.

I think all of it is fair game for discussion, none of it really pertains at all to the case.

What I do not find acceptable is simply taking something making up additional details about it to support ones opinion. i.e. gold jewelery worth at least x amount of dollars.

If the opinion was just hey Martin may have been in possession of stolen property, I would have to agree, with the understanding none was reported stolen.

But no, thats taken to Martin was a burglar and part of some theft ring and drug dealer etc etc. stealing 10 thousand dollars worth of stuff.

the possession of the jewelry is interesting discussion topic on its own without the need to flat out lie about details.

 

[EagleKeeper]

As in you know she was coached? Or allegedly but you're still outright saying it happened?

I have suspicions that she was, given the time that Crimp had her and then the fact that her story changrd considerably from the story that Crimp originally disseminated.

Not by a few words, but the complete story on who she was and what was claimed.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The residue baggie was a seperate incident, he never claimed the baggie wasn't his, iirc.

His friend might have been a "player". Giving cheap jewelry to girls for the expectation of sex, etc.

Costume jewelry is not going to get a scrutiny from Miami PD.

And it is not valuable enough to "forget" a friend's name.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Its not really a damning report because there's nothing but speculation that ANY crime was commited by anyone, let alone Martin.

In fact the ONLY evidence that exists is that it was NOT stolen. The police investigated that issue and that is the only conclusion to be drawn from their report.

It was not REPORTED stolen to Miami-Dade PD based on the description sent.
That is the conclusion/statement.

There are two other counties that are wealthy within a hours drive.
Were those reports checked. By MDPD. probably not.

 

[EagleKeeper]

He wasn't suspended for the jewelry.

I did not say that he was.

A teenage boy that just had stuff confiscated by the school is going to shut up about it and not say a word? To anyone?

A mother that cares so much to move him to a better school to keep him out of trouble does not go storming down to the school and demanding to know the justification for the expelling?

Complaining about them taking the son's property?

Sends her son out of the area for two weeks to wise him up.

One sounds like a good mother. But would raise hell if she thought something wrong.

But apparently she does not know the story of the jewelry! Why?.

TM should have had he mother get it if it was legit. Why would a mother want a black mark like that over her son's reputation?

 

[Geosurface]

It was not REPORTED stolen to Miami-Dade PD based on the description sent.
That is the conclusion/statement.

There are two other counties that are wealthy within a hours drive.
Were those reports checked. By MDPD. probably not.

Also, not everyone who has jewelry stolen notices it is gone right away, or even ever bothers to file a report.

But again, my hunch (and it's just that) is that the jewelry came from GZ's neighborhood, or one of the adjacent ones like Calbria Cove.

I think maybe Trayvon connected with a group of local burglars and was hitting those neighborhoods around there, or he might've been a free agent working independent of any others.

Or maybe he burglarized in Miami.

Or maybe he never burglarized a thing in his life, I don't know.

I doubt that given the jewelry and screwdriver, though. I'm just cynical like that. Particularly about teenaged boys.

 

[lotus503]

Also, not everyone who has jewelry stolen notices it is gone right away, or even ever bothers to file a report.

But again, my hunch (and it's just that) is that the jewelry came from GZ's neighborhood, or one of the adjacent ones like Calbria Cove.

I think maybe Trayvon connected with a group of local burglars and was hitting those neighborhoods around there, or he might've been a free agent working independent of any others.

Or maybe he burglarized in Miami.

Or maybe he never burglarized a thing in his life, I don't know.

I doubt that given the jewelry and screwdriver, though. I'm just cynical like that. Particularly about teenaged boys.

at least you contend to not know but suspect, thats a fair way to go about this, we can all have suspicions of whatever we want.

Just like I suspect there is more to GZ's story than he is telling, I don't have solid proof of this and its why I cant sit here and say he should be convicted based on my hunches.

what some folks have a problem with is applying the same standard to both TM and GZ.

 

[EagleKeeper]

What does he have to hide?

If he's innocent it shouldn't be hard at all.

Also don't steal my schtick.. You already showed everybody your hand this morning. You proved you don't read above the 5th grade level and that you can't understand even the most simple words of the english language.

Fuck off .

As previously explained to you multiple times by multiple people.
HE IS NOT REQUIRED TO TAKE THE STAND. IT IS NOT TO BE CONSIDERED TO BE AN ADMISSION OF GUILT.

That pesky 5th.

Then as also been explained. If you give a lawyer two words, they will twist them out of context and not allow you to correct.

A very goof reason to take the 5th.

As much as you refuse to accept that and insist that he needs to take the stand.

Why rehash this over and over again.

Suggest you start a new thread on why tbe 5th is wrong and we should go back to the European methods of the 1700s.

However I am very impressed of your command of s 6th grade language level. Much above that of the 5th grade you do despise.

 

[WHAMPOM]

A friend gives you a bag of jewelry to hold.
One does not ask questions?
The person is not someone who you remember?

HS kids run in a circle of 15-20 friends.
TM was so out of it that he does not remember who would have handed this to him?

Stretching it.
He either did not want to give up the friend and was willing to take a potential rap
Or he knew that was the way to avoid further issue.

Interesting that his mother did not make any stink about this.
She knew he was suspended.
Did he conveniently forget to tell her why; did she think that the spray paint was the only reason?
Yet she sent him to the father to get straightened out.


For a responsible mother; she apparently did not know her boy very well or care to get the truth. :thumbsdown:

GET real! Of course Travon knows who gave him the "loot", this is High School, you know what being a snitch in High School gets the kid that does snitch. Hell does not cover it.
Spray paint?? Where did you get spray paint? It was a felt tip marker and it was multiple suspensions at different schools.

 

[Geosurface]

GET real! Of course Travon knows who gave him the "loot", this is High School, you know what being a snitch in High School gets the kid that does snitch. Hell does not cover it.

So you're cynical and world-weary enough to believe the jewelry is stolen, and to believe Trayvon was lying about not knowing who his thief-friend was...

but you're somehow at the same time not cynical or shrewd enough to realize that it was Trayvon himself?

Why in hell's name would you hand over an expensive, expansive Larceny-O Haul to your friend for safekeeping? His thief-friend didn't have his own backpack? It makes zero sense.

More importantly: why the screwdriver?

Did his thief-friend hand over his burglary tool too?

You're almost there WHAMPOM... but I need you to get a little bit more cynical.

 

[EagleKeeper]

GET real! Of course Travon knows who gave him the "loot", this is High School, you know what being a snitch in High School gets the kid that does snitch. Hell does not cover it.
Spray paint?? Where did you get spray paint? It was a felt tip marker and it was multiple suspensions at different schools.

You have TM supporters claiming that he could have been telling the truth regarding the friend.

All the school incident and others unanswered social media issues do is allow an attempt at understanding TM actions and possibly justification of a higher degree of GZ profiling.

It also dispels the concept of the cherub that Crimp and family have tried to portray.

The friends are not going to talk smack and as you say no one will tell tbe truth if it puts Martin in a bad light.

Because of trying to paint the cherub, as info became available, it wetted appetites for more details that seemed to be suppressed/overlooked.

 

[Darkman]

"he wasn't perfect .. BUT ... he was hers"

(btw .. before ... on another board .. saw florida court's web site .. - and Trayvon's dad ain't Mr. Perfect either.. he had his own brush up(s) with the law (on several occasions).