Trump May Be Acquitted in a Senate Impeachment Trial. That's Not the Same as Being Exonerated

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MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
There isn't an equivalence at all. Killing people is worse than being a narcissistic piece of shit who talks about grabbing pussies. Both are bad. One of them is far worse. It doesn't make the other one OK AT ALL and I'm not sure you can see past this. Why do you have some kind of special need to see Trump as the worst person in history? Is it a fear that if he's "only" 2nd worst then we'll all be chill as shit with him?



This is an extremely odd take on mass murder. I don't think you actually do get it.

The narrative that Bush is solely responsible for mass murder is completely ridiculous and simply not fact based.

America is responsible for all those deaths, not Bush. This is revisionist history to try and absolve US citizens from their responsibility and for the deaths in the wars they have started. Attitudes changed once body bags started coming home. This snippet from Vox sums it up pretty well, along with my other links.

But neither version of history is really correct. The US primarily invaded Iraq not because of lies or because of bad intelligence, though both featured. In fact, it invaded because of an ideology.

A movement of high-minded ideologues had, throughout the 1990s, become obsessed with deposing Saddam Hussein. When they assumed positions of power under Bush in 2001, they did not seek to trick America into that war, but rather tricked themselves. In 9/11, and in fragments of intelligence that more objective minds would have rejected, they could see only validation for their abstract and untested theories about the world — theories whose inevitable and obvious conclusion was an American invasion of Iraq.



Its comforting and convenient to rely on the "Bush lied people died" idea, but it stems from a nation's cognitive dissonance about the many horrible things it has done over the years. See Central America.

In comparison, Trump is solely responsible for all the racist, mysoginist, anti-immigrant, illegal, corrupt things he's done and the thousands of lies he has uttered. He is solely responsible for babies being in cages, for inciting violence in his supporters, for using the Presidency as a cash register and a means to a very egotistical selfish personal end.

Bush is partially responsible for a failed war.
Trump is wholly responsible for being a failed human being.

Not even close.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,970
7,889
136
Of course we shouldn't let him off the hook, but we also need to keep some historical perspective here.

I hear too often he's this existential threat to democracy.

Eh.. I'm just saying we've seen worse.

Trump is a loser who had failed to do anything other than run a reality show from the wh. For all the bluster and noise, there is very little behind it.

He's done little that won't be reversed over time when he's finally gone.


He's a symptom, though, not the entire disease. A distressing sympom, and gross to look at, like a pustulating (weirdly orange) boil on the body-politic. And the pus itself may spread infection. But you have to wonder why this boil appeared.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,874
136
He's a symptom, though, not the entire disease. A distressing sympom, and gross to look at, like a pustulating (weirdly orange) boil on the body-politic. And the pus itself may spread infection. But you have to wonder why this boil appeared.

We know why it appeared. Targeted news, as in targeted its audience and its message/stories were targeted to push a particular narrative. Then the other media outlets followed like talk radio which did more of the same but with more extreme stories. Then we got newt Gingrich which took the message and actions to the government where the dumbing down became institutionalized. From there it was just a matter of turning up the rhetoric and pushing division until we have the hyper partisan environment we have now.

The question I have is; was this deliberate or did greed simply push things along to where we are now. The optimistic side of me says the greed and the ease at which a group of people could be manipulated and grifted is what attracted people to the movement and kept it going.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The narrative that Bush is solely responsible for mass murder is completely ridiculous and simply not fact based.

America is responsible for all those deaths, not Bush. This is revisionist history to try and absolve US citizens from their responsibility and for the deaths in the wars they have started. Attitudes changed once body bags started coming home. This snippet from Vox sums it up pretty well, along with my other links.

But neither version of history is really correct. The US primarily invaded Iraq not because of lies or because of bad intelligence, though both featured. In fact, it invaded because of an ideology.

A movement of high-minded ideologues had, throughout the 1990s, become obsessed with deposing Saddam Hussein. When they assumed positions of power under Bush in 2001, they did not seek to trick America into that war, but rather tricked themselves. In 9/11, and in fragments of intelligence that more objective minds would have rejected, they could see only validation for their abstract and untested theories about the world — theories whose inevitable and obvious conclusion was an American invasion of Iraq.



Its comforting and convenient to rely on the "Bush lied people died" idea, but it stems from a nation's cognitive dissonance about the many horrible things it has done over the years. See Central America.

In comparison, Trump is solely responsible for all the racist, mysoginist, anti-immigrant, illegal, corrupt things he's done and the thousands of lies he has uttered. He is solely responsible for babies being in cages, for inciting violence in his supporters, for using the Presidency as a cash register and a means to a very egotistical selfish personal end.

Bush is partially responsible for a failed war.
Trump is wholly responsible for being a failed human being.

Not even close.

Gawd. Leadership matters. It's not like the public decided on their own volition to invade Iraq. They were led to that conclusion with misinformation & lies, which is also how we have Trump.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,090
136
I have family members who were gravely maimed for life due to Bush's lies about Iraq and "what they did on 9/11,” and they count themselves lucky versus some of their brothers.

So far Trump had just caused drama, spread corruption and wasted money.
You can't really compare that to a body count half a million high. No one is dead. Full stop.

No American's lives are really changed due to this actions. If you didn't watch the news or go on the Twitter/FB, would you even notice in your daily life? Probably not.

He's a terrible president, but we're getting on despite his bullshit.

Put it this way, if he loses the next election, what's historically notable about his presidency? Nothing but impeachment. He'll be like one of those forgettable 19th century presidents nobody knows about anymore. His best hope is being remembered as "a notable cvnt." And that's it.

Bush would be noted tho. 9/11, starting and losing two wars, and worst financial crash in 75yrs? That will earn you a couple sentences in the history book.

If Trump gets a second term, you won't even be arguing this point any more. No one will.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,783
6,187
126
Once acquitted, he is going to look for the real power abusers and write a book called "If I obstructed."
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
If Trump gets a second term, you won't even be arguing this point any more. No one will.

When he kills a half a million people I'll reconsider. For now it's just reality show drama bullshit for the most part.

We've had slavery, women prohibited from voting, non-whites oppresed by the govt, state sponsored genocide of Native Americans, internment camps, Jim Crow, govt supported KKK, a civil war, forced draft to fight a pointless war started on a lie... And it's Trump's tweets and shady wh is what ends American democracy?

Come on. Realistically, what is he going to even if he does win that's going to be remembered in 100 yrs?
Especially when Nancy likely keeps the house?

No wall. No more huge tax cuts. Nada.
He's already surrendered on most of his big ideas and doesn't have any new ones.
Just debt, drama and judges.

Last part will really suck, but he'll waste all the rest of his time fighting subpoenas.

Then he'll be out of office with little to show for it.

In 25 yrs we'll still be debating how much of a jerkoff he was.

In 50 yrs everyone will just hazily remember him as that crook that got impeached. Like Nixon, but more useless and absurd.
Most of his supporters will be dead. As will most of his kids.

In 75, barely anyone who voted in 2016 is even alive, much less listen to. Country will have moved on due to other problems and events.

In 100 we'll be living on Mars after we cooked the planet, and the Martians will blame all of their ancestors for our stupidity and failure to act.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,090
136
When he kills a half a million people I'll reconsider. For now it's just reality show drama bullshit for the most part.

We've had slavery, women prohibited from voting, non-whites oppresed by the govt, state sponsored genocide of Native Americans, internment camps, Jim Crow, govt supported KKK, a civil war, forced draft to fight a pointless war started on a lie... And it's Trump's tweets and shady wh is what ends American democracy?

Come on. Realistically, what is he going to even if he does win that's going to be remembered in 100 yrs?
Especially when Nancy likely keeps the house?

No wall. No more huge tax cuts. Nada.
He's already surrendered on most of his big ideas and doesn't have any new ones.
Just debt, drama and judges.

Last part will really suck, but he'll waste all the rest of his time fighting subpoenas.

Then he'll be out of office with little to show for it.

In 25 yrs we'll still be debating how much of a jerkoff he was.

In 50 yrs everyone will just hazily remember him as that crook that got impeached. Like Nixon, but more useless and absurd.
Most of his supporters will be dead. As will most of his kids.

In 75, barely anyone who voted in 2016 is even alive, much less listen to. Country will have moved on due to other problems and events.

In 100 we'll be living on Mars after we cooked the planet, and the Martians will blame all of their ancestors for our stupidity and failure to act.

I think you're underestimating the danger of Trump. But since that is based on predictions, there is no way to resolve the disagreement short of waiting and seeing.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,970
7,889
136
When he kills a half a million people I'll reconsider. For now it's just reality show drama bullshit for the most part.

We've had slavery, women prohibited from voting, non-whites oppresed by the govt, state sponsored genocide of Native Americans, internment camps, Jim Crow, govt supported KKK, a civil war, forced draft to fight a pointless war started on a lie... And it's Trump's tweets and shady wh is what ends American democracy?

Come on. Realistically, what is he going to even if he does win that's going to be remembered in 100 yrs?
Especially when Nancy likely keeps the house?

No wall. No more huge tax cuts. Nada.
He's already surrendered on most of his big ideas and doesn't have any new ones.
Just debt, drama and judges.

Last part will really suck, but he'll waste all the rest of his time fighting subpoenas.

Then he'll be out of office with little to show for it.

In 25 yrs we'll still be debating how much of a jerkoff he was.

In 50 yrs everyone will just hazily remember him as that crook that got impeached. Like Nixon, but more useless and absurd.
Most of his supporters will be dead. As will most of his kids.

In 75, barely anyone who voted in 2016 is even alive, much less listen to. Country will have moved on due to other problems and events.

In 100 we'll be living on Mars after we cooked the planet, and the Martians will blame all of their ancestors for our stupidity and failure to act.


But the judges thing is _huge_. The 'left' in the US has for some time come to rely on taking the judicial route to solving problems. That's not going to be an option any more.

And the immediate effect of Trump is likely to be quite bad for anyone in a vulnerable position, and those bad effects will still be having effects on their descendants even in 75 years time.

But most of all a Trump win would be an indicator of serious problems in US society that will continue to be a problem long after the guy himself is gone.

Just as Johnson's victory here is about a lot more than just the flaws of Corbyn or even just Brexit. It's a symptom of deep socio-economic changes.
(Fascinating how he's both similar to, and very different from, Trump...he's very cunning and flexible, quite capable of giving at least the impression of shifting leftward if it will keep him in power)
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
Gawd. Leadership matters. It's not like the public decided on their own volition to invade Iraq. They were led to that conclusion with misinformation & lies, which is also how we have Trump.
[/QUOT
Support for invading Iraq was there prior to the WMDs nonsense.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136

Not much prior to the Bush admin conflating the Iraqi regime with the perps of the attacks of 9/11. They frothed up public sentiment like the propaganda pros they are. Or maybe you were in a coma in 2002.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,047
12,715
136
When he kills a half a million people I'll reconsider. For now it's just reality show drama bullshit for the most part.

We've had slavery, women prohibited from voting, non-whites oppresed by the govt, state sponsored genocide of Native Americans, internment camps, Jim Crow, govt supported KKK, a civil war, forced draft to fight a pointless war started on a lie... And it's Trump's tweets and shady wh is what ends American democracy?

Come on. Realistically, what is he going to even if he does win that's going to be remembered in 100 yrs?
Especially when Nancy likely keeps the house?

No wall. No more huge tax cuts. Nada.
He's already surrendered on most of his big ideas and doesn't have any new ones.
Just debt, drama and judges.

Last part will really suck, but he'll waste all the rest of his time fighting subpoenas.

Then he'll be out of office with little to show for it.

In 25 yrs we'll still be debating how much of a jerkoff he was.

In 50 yrs everyone will just hazily remember him as that crook that got impeached. Like Nixon, but more useless and absurd.
Most of his supporters will be dead. As will most of his kids.

In 75, barely anyone who voted in 2016 is even alive, much less listen to. Country will have moved on due to other problems and events.

In 100 we'll be living on Mars after we cooked the planet, and the Martians will blame all of their ancestors for our stupidity and failure to act.

He will get another or two SC seats, He will transform EP into Kinghood, American Oligarks will eat out more, GOP will invite Russian money and influence even more openly. Pull out of NATO, fuck up even more geopolitical influence and hand it over to Russia and China. Yes. The End. Minority authoritarian rule. And the American people will love it, just like the Russian people love Putin.