"Troll thread" -- let's hash this out.

[Doc Savage Fan]

Then it's organized religion that you have a problem with, not necessarily the people you have a problem with

He said this:

I absolutely know what bigotry is. ESPECIALLY in relation to religious folk.

I know from experience as a practicing bigot against members of organized religions.

 

[jackstar7]

African-Americans.

So you don't think black people live in line with their religious beliefs? Or that they don't pracitce those beliefs within the realm of politics?

 

[lotus503]

African-Americans.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/african-americans-most-religiously-devout-group-36736/

http://blackdemographics.com/culture/religion/

and what public policy or religious values do you see discussed frequently among this %45 population?

 

[lotus503]

only real examples I could find quickly, both from the same place and only one lists Christian principles.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_values

http://www.conservapedia.com/Liberal_values

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

So you don't think black people live in line with their religious beliefs? Or that they don't pracitce those beliefs within the realm of politics?

DSF: What reasonable person looking for honest discussion singles out conservative Christians to denigrate when similar shortcomings apply to liberal Christians as well?

jackstar7: Do you have links to the major Liberal Christian groups that have a lot of sway in the Democratic party?

DSF: African-Americans

jackstar7: So you don't think black people live in line with their religious beliefs? Or that they don't pracitce those beliefs within the realm of politics?

DSF: A majority of African-Americans are opposed to gay marriage yet they consistently vote about 90% Democratic. Do you consider them to be hypocrites and worthy of constant ridicule for supporting a party who's platform is extremely pro-gay?

http://www.loop21.com/life/poll-says-blacks-are-only-race-majority-against-gay-marriage

 

[fskimospy]

Well Jesus never actually said anything about homosexuality. In contrast to this he said lots and lots about helping the poor. Most people infer some sort of prohibition on homosexuality because it was in the old testament, but plenty of the OT is superceded by the new as is.

Also, it is interesting that somehow not singling out gays for persecution equals "extremely pro gay" to some people. That says a lot.

 

[lotus503]

DSF: What reasonable person looking for honest discussion singles out conservative Christians to denigrate when similar shortcomings apply to liberal Christians as well?

jackstar7: Do you have links to the major Liberal Christian groups that have a lot of sway in the Democratic party?

DSF: African-Americans

jackstar7: So you don't think black people live in line with their religious beliefs? Or that they don't pracitce those beliefs within the realm of politics?

DSF: A majority of African-Americans are opposed to gay marriage yet they consistently vote about 90% Democratic. Do you consider them to be hypocrites and worthy of constant ridicule for supporting a party who's platform is extremely pro-gay?

"The poll also finds that 59 percent of African Americans say they support same-sex marriage"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...-low/2012/05/22/gIQAlAYRjU_story.html?hpid=z3

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

"The poll also finds that 59 percent of African Americans say they support same-sex marriage"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...-low/2012/05/22/gIQAlAYRjU_story.html?hpid=z3

This is rapidly changing the last 4 years across most all demographics. However, my point remains.

Pew Study (4 days ago)
http://www.pewresearch.org/2013/03/21/gay-marriage-key-data-points-from-pew-research/

 

[lotus503]

This is rapidly changing the last 4 years across most all demographics. However, my point remains.

Pew Study (4 days ago)
http://www.pewresearch.org/2013/03/21/gay-marriage-key-data-points-from-pew-research/

So do you think supporting same sex marriage is a christian or religious value? or ar eyou pointing out that history demonstrates African Americans have a history of not agreeing with democrats on social issue but voting for them anyways?

When putting in the religious qualifier you have lines of republicans outlining they don't agree with same sex marriage using Christianity as a basis for that rejection.

Meanwhile religious blacks has shifted and support it by majority despite similar religious values.

 

[highland145]

Well Jesus never actually said anything about homosexuality. In contrast to this he said lots and lots about helping the poor. Most people infer some sort of prohibition on homosexuality because it was in the old testament, but plenty of the OT is superceded by the new as is.

Also, it is interesting that somehow not singling out gays for persecution equals "extremely pro gay" to some people. That says a lot.

Jesus said he did not come to overthrow the old law but uphold it. Without the blood of the Lamb, salvation can't be had because man can not live up to the law on his own.


He did have a lot to say about husbands and wives.

 

[jackstar7]

Heck, now I just want to hear more about the "extremely pro-gay" platform.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Well Jesus never actually said anything about homosexuality. In contrast to this he said lots and lots about helping the poor. Most people infer some sort of prohibition on homosexuality because it was in the old testament, but plenty of the OT is superceded by the new as is.

Agree. However it's interesting to note that Jesus avocated that people help the poor...not the government.

Also, it is interesting that somehow not singling out gays for persecution equals "extremely pro gay" to some people. That says a lot.

Wut? Who said that?

When I used the term "extremely pro gay" I was referring primarily to pro gay marriage. I said nothing about not singling out gays for persecution as equivalent to being "extremely pro gay". Your rationale eludes me.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Heck, now I just want to hear more about the "extremely pro-gay" platform.

And I want to hear an answer to my question in Post #105.

 

[ivwshane]

Well, the religions need people to perpetuate them... so the people are to blame from my perspective.

So then according to that logic, al queda is justified in killing innocent Americans for action committed by our country? After all Americans get the government they vote for.

People are religious for different reasons, almost none of them make the rules, the message, or create the culture. There is indeed a difference between the institution and the people that belong to it.

 

[ivwshane]

You think black religious liberals have a significant sway in democratic policy? How so? Because a black reverend ran for president? What religious agenda was he pushing? How many votes did he get?

So yes, a lot of black people are religious and yes a lot of black people vote democratic but there is no black religious faction of the democratic party that has any major sway.

 

[lotus503]

You think black religious liberals have a significant sway in democratic policy? How so? Because a black reverend ran for president? What religious agenda was he pushing? How many votes did he get?

So yes, a lot of black people are religious and yes a lot of black people vote democratic but there is no black religious faction of the democratic party that has any major sway.

In fact we have demonstrated blacks are willing to go against religious teachings as a manner of policy, which seems to be contradictory to RW Christians who seem to rely on religious teachings at the heart of policy choices such as gay marriage and abortion.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

We now have some of the people who said they wouldn't discuss a topic because it was trolling, actually discussing the underlying topic, in the thread created to debate whether the original topic was trolling or not.

The Internet.. ya gotta love it.

(Carry on, it's a good conversation and I don't care where it happens, really.)

 

[ivwshane]

In fact we have demonstrated blacks are willing to go against religious teachings as a manner of policy, which seems to be contradictory to RW Christians who seem to rely on religious teachings at the heart of policy choices such as gay marriage and abortion.

You mean we just addresses a "troll" statement with facts and nullified the statement? I didn't think that was possible /s

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

In fact we have demonstrated blacks are willing to go against religious teachings as a manner of policy, which seems to be contradictory to RW Christians who seem to rely on religious teachings at the heart of policy choices such as gay marriage and abortion.

I'm not sure if this is a fair question or not, but I'll ask it..."So who are the hypocrites here...LW Christians or RW Christians?"

 

[jackstar7]

DSF: A majority of African-Americans are opposed to gay marriage yet they consistently vote about 90% Democratic. Do you consider them to be hypocrites and worthy of constant ridicule for supporting a party who's platform is extremely pro-gay?

I think they deserve ridicule for being a group strongly affected by prejudice who are now pushing the same on another group. It has jack to do with their political affiliations though... so to your question, I'm confused because of your framing. I think the party they support having a pro-gay platform (also having something of a pro-black platform) doesn't in turn make them hypocrites, except in a very narrow view of things.

My problem is that I'm not seeing the parallels to the conservative side. Do the tenets of Christianity line up with the tenets of Republican party platform? Is being black a religion?

 

[ivwshane]

I'm not sure if this is a fair question or not, but I'll ask it..."So who are the hypocrites here...LW Christians or RW Christians?"

I'm sure there is evidence to show they both are hypocrites but that doesn't change the fact that one group has a strong influence in their respective political party.

 

[jackstar7]

So then according to that logic, al queda is justified in killing innocent Americans for action committed by our country? After all Americans get the government they vote for.

People are religious for different reasons, almost none of them make the rules, the message, or create the culture. There is indeed a difference between the institution and the people that belong to it.

AH! But religions and countries are a bit different, no?

A means of organizing a society of people to operate (ideally) equitably and effectively for the needs of all of the participants is quite different from a group organizing to collectively worship a deity. Can we agree upon that?

 

[lotus503]

I'm not sure if this is a fair question or not, but I'll ask it..."So who are the hypocrites here...LW Christians or RW Christians?"

I would say in this case LW Christians are being hypocritical to the teachings of the bible. Not sure the teachign sof Jesus in particular ever touched on homosexuality though.

But it does demonstrate on some level both sides will toss out the teachings of religion in favor of policy or ideals they support.

Then again i don't think pointing this out is bad or trollish in any way.

This convo has gone how the original one should have I think.

 

[Abraxas]

I'm not sure if this is a fair question or not, but I'll ask it..."So who are the hypocrites here...LW Christians or RW Christians?"

Both? The left just tends to spend less time talking about how amazingly Christian they are.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

We now have some of the people who said they wouldn't discuss a topic because it was trolling, actually discussing the underlying topic, in the thread created to debate whether the original topic was trolling or not.

The Internet.. ya gotta love it.

(Carry on, it's a good conversation and I don't care where it happens, really.)

Thank you. That thread didn't genuinely promote honest discussion in my opinion.