"Troll thread" -- let's hash this out.

[Doc Savage Fan]

Both? The left just tends to spend less time talking about how amazingly Christian they are.

On what basis do you say this?

 

[ivwshane]

AH! But religions and countries are a bit different, no?

A means of organizing a society of people to operate (ideally) equitably and effectively for the needs of all of the participants is quite different from a group organizing to collectively worship a deity. Can we agree upon that?

No. You can say the same thing you said for a country as you could for a religion. Not all religions are simply based on worshiping a god, in fact they worship a god for his message of which is similar to what you stated is the goal of a country.


And I say this as someone who hates organized religion. I hate people individually for different reasons but I don't group them all together because they have a similar belief or because they are all a certain color or because they come from a certain place on earth.



(hate is a strong word, I really don't hate anyone but there are those I dislike the shit out if them)

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I'm sure there is evidence to show they both are hypocrites but that doesn't change the fact that one group has a strong influence in their respective political party.

Yes, it's unfortunate that blacks don't have much say in the Democratic Party.

 

[jackstar7]

No. You can say the same thing you said for a country as you could for a religion. Not all religions are simply based on worshiping a god, in fact they worship a god for his message of which is similar to what you stated is the goal of a country.


And I say this as someone who hates organized religion. I hate people individually for different reasons but I don't group them all together because they have a similar belief or because they are all a certain color or because they come from a certain place on earth.



(hate is a strong word, I really don't hate anyone but there are those I dislike the shit out if them)

And I don't hate them. I simply have no respect for them.

Example me! Which religions are organized to serve the interests of all the members equitably and efficiently? Make me smarter! I command you! (kidding, of course, it's just a request)

 

[Abraxas]

On what basis do you say this?

For which part? The hypocrisy or the being vocal about it?

On the basis of the latter, I don't see the Democrats as a matter of course coming out expressly for or against a position on the basis of what the Bible says as a matter of things like gay marriage or abortion. Likewise the Democrats almost eliminated the mention of God from their party platform, the Republicans have it in 12 times. The Republican website front page has one blog post, for Passover. The Democrat website has a half dozen blog posts, all political. I'm sorry, the Republicans wear their faith on their sleeves as a party a lot more than the Democrats do. Do you dispute this?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I would say in this case LW Christians are being hypocritical to the teachings of the bible. Not sure the teachign sof Jesus in particular ever touched on homosexuality though.

But it does demonstrate on some level both sides will toss out the teachings of religion in favor of policy or ideals they support.

Then again i don't think pointing this out is bad or trollish in any way.

This convo has gone how the original one should have I think.

I don't think it's fair to cry hypocrisy when LW or RW Christian values don't align completely with their party platform. In fact, I think this goes well beyond religious beliefs as most everyone doesn't completely agree some aspects of their party's platform.

I see the evangelical influence on the Republican side to be rapidly disminishing. We live in an ever increasing secular society and Republicans will be hard pressed not to move to a more libertarian position in my opinion.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Example me! Which religions are organized to serve the interests of all the members equitably and efficiently?

Most of them -- when you look at their more enlightened and moderate sects, rather than the extremist/fundamentalist sects that get all the attention.

 

[jackstar7]

Most of them -- when you look at their more enlightened and moderate sects, rather than the extremist/fundamentalist sects that get all the attention.

Wait... so are you treating Catholicism as equivalent to Sufism in this? Or do their relative influences affect this analysis?

 

[ivwshane]

Yes, it's unfortunate that blacks don't have much say in the Democratic Party.

Who said blacks don't have any say? I didn't but I did state black religious factions don't have any sway. There is a difference.

 

[ivwshane]

And I don't hate them. I simply have no respect for them.

Example me! Which religions are organized to serve the interests of all the members equitably and efficiently? Make me smarter! I command you! (kidding, of course, it's just a request)

Most are based around that notion but as we both know, the message is twisted to whatever the motives of the speaker want them to be. The speakers and the message givers are different than the receivers.

You don't hate religious people you hate their religion, unless, again, you think justified bigotry is ok.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

For which part? The hypocrisy or the being vocal about it?

On the basis of the latter, I don't see the Democrats as a matter of course coming out expressly for or against a position on the basis of what the Bible says as a matter of things like gay marriage or abortion. Likewise the Democrats almost eliminated the mention of God from their party platform, the Republicans have it in 12 times. The Republican website front page has one blog post, for Passover. The Democrat website has a half dozen blog posts, all political. I'm sorry, the Republicans wear their faith on their sleeves as a party a lot more than the Democrats do. Do you dispute this?

No...I don't dispute that...I just struggle with your depiction that Republicans promote themselves as "amazingly Christian". It comes across as condescending and intolerant in my opinion.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Wait... so are you treating Catholicism as equivalent to Sufism in this? Or do their relative influences affect this analysis?

I don't know. I'm just saying that there are moderate, enlightened people in all religions, people who care more about doing good things than just praying and preaching.

 

[Abraxas]

No...I don't dispute that...I just struggle with your depiction that Republicans promote themselves as "amazingly Christian". It comes across as condescending and intolerant in my opinion.

My use of "amazingly Christian" was only to convey the proposition that the Republicans seek to distinguish themselves from their opposition as a matter of course by portraying themselves as and billing themselves out to be the party of God and the godly, specifically the Christian God (the Democrats being labeled as anti-Christian, anti-faith, anti-God, etc.). It was not my intent to use the phrase as condescending or intolerant, but I will grant that it was selected to be slightly derogatory to express my stated opinion that they do not, as a rule, live up to their claims of godliness even though that is one of their major sales pitches, or, put another way, it was a shot at what I consider to be party hypocrisy.

 

[fskimospy]

Agree. However it's interesting to note that Jesus avocated that people help the poor...not the government.

Well from my understanding he never said anything against the government helping poor people, just that he wasn't concerned with the actions of government.

Wut? Who said that?

When I used the term "extremely pro gay" I was referring primarily to pro gay marriage. I said nothing about not singling out gays for persecution as equivalent to being "extremely pro gay". Your rationale eludes me.

You said 'pro gay', not 'pro gay marriage'. Either way, I view the denial of basic rights such as the right to marry to be persecution, so even just confined to that topic I would stand by what I said.

 

[jackstar7]

I don't know. I'm just saying that there are moderate, enlightened people in all religions, people who care more about doing good things than just praying and preaching.

Ah. You seem to be arguing against my bigotry and that's certainly reasonable reaction. Mine stems directly from the acceptance of the unreal required by religion. Even one who joins the religion for charitable reasons is also tacitly accepting the abdication of reason to the religion, and from my point of view, nothing is worth making that sacrifice, so one who does... I have a hard time respecting them, even if I like them in all other ways.

Religion hinders so much that I cannot overlook its misdeeds in favor of whatever good it might do.

Again, I am not hateful, I simply do not find it reasonable and therefore cannot find it respectable.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Religion hinders so much that I cannot overlook its misdeeds in favor of whatever good it might do.

I can.

I'm a big proponent of what Christians refer to as "works". I really don't care what anyone believes in, as long as it spurs them to live good, decent, productive lives, and to work to help those around them. There are millions of fine people who believe in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and other religions, and do so in a positive way.

It is only the extremism I have a problem with -- the Taliban, or "God hates fags", or Jews who throw rocks at girls because they can see their ankles. That sort of thing.