Tough Morality Question: Is It Right For Illegal Aliens to...

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: alexruiz

Originally posted by: dahunan
Now, the Clinton administration and congressional leaders are preparing an additional $40 billion U.S. taxpayer backed loan guarantee for Mexico. The loan guarantee would back up the sale of $40 billion dollars worth of 3 to 5 year bonds through Wall Street. The proceeds of the $40 billion dollar bond sale would go to the Mexican government.

The Mexican government will use the proceeds of the $40 billion dollar bond sale [/b]to repay the $28 billion dollar[/b], 20% interest, short term bonds that are now due and use the remainder of the money at their own discretion.

If the Mexican government pays back the $40 billion dollars of bonds insured by the U.S. taxpayers the U.S. government will receive a fee between $6 billion and $8 billion.

Mexico has defaulted on past debts. In the early 1930's Mexico defaulted on its debt; in the mid 30's Mexico nationalized the petroleum industry, much of it owned by U.S. investors; and in 1982 Mexico again defaulted on its debt.


Information on the Mexican Peso Bailout


Health Information for Travelers to Mexico and Central AmericaNationally, 52 percent of all recorded infant deaths in 1990 occurred during the postneonatal stage, when infants are most susceptible to infections and poor diet. Although perinatal complications accounted for 35 percent of all infant deaths in 1990, intestinal infections and influenza and pneumonia also remained important causes, representing 15 and 13 percent of infant deaths, respectively.



And FINALLY, The only Americans trying to sneak into Mexico ARE THOSE WANTED FOR CRIMES - LOL

Some truth, some not.... but in general it just confirms what I have posted.... the information of 1995 is not valid, as the country was out of the huge recession of 1994. How about more recent information???

The health information is *sorry* full of myth and lies..... I posted before in another thread WHY the travelers should not drink our water, and it refers ONLY to the way you were raised.... I also get diarrhea drinking water in the USA from the tap..... and I already explained that the high concentration of chlorine kills my normal bacteria.....

Tropical place???? Persons in the a goverment dependency who write about foreign countries MUST be required to read extensively about such places, and even visit them if possible..... I am still looking to visit some tropical places in MY own country...... LOL

Alex

PS. there are some, but defining the country as tropical is stupid to say the least....

Sorry dude, but it is valid. just because you had a recession in '95 doesn't mean that the information doesn't draw a picture of the country at that point in time.

 

[Tom]

I did not use the word finite initially. I quoted someone elses use of that word in saying that they were wrong IMHO.

finite-
1 a : having definite or definable limits

In the case of hospital spending my point is that the limit implicit in the original phrase is not a real limit, it is a political decision. If the limit is not real then it isn't finite.

Additionally the use of words has to be taken in context. I was disputing the use of the word finite in the context of a universe of limited government spending. Someone else insisted that I was suggesting that hospital spending was infinite, a term which goes beyond the context of the original use of the word finite and in my disputing it's correctness.

 

[StageLeft]

Skoorb, I'm surprised that such sympathy comes from you. Canada has a socialist system and means free healthcare for people. So do Western European countries. At the end, it seems that Canada and Western Europe suffers more from offering "free" healthcare, in spite of its quality, to any and all people more than the US does. And perhaps it's that concept of free healthcare that causes the degradation of health treatment and services.

You wouldn't say it's fair if you were getting pay checks in Canada after seeing the sick amount of taxes drawn from them! And the "free", while offering itself to anyone like you said does degrade its own quality at the same time.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: luvly
LeeTJ, I'm saying basically, health has no boundary in my opinion. Jesica is an exception to the rule, not a part of the rule. She doesn't represent the health care that an average illegal alien gets in the USA, just as most Americans who make it on the top news get the attention and get saved before the other Americans who are struggling with similar situations. The problem is not the immigrants. It's our health system. It's capitalism that gives Jesica the privilege that she has at the moment, because there are people willing to commit their time and give it publicity and donate. So I don't see the grounds for objection to the care she gets. Her nationality should and does not have relevance to the care she gets in a capitalist system, in my opinion.

On the other hand, when she's treated, if she's an illegal alien, she should be promptly deported to Mexico, in my opinion.

Skoorb, I'm surprised that such sympathy comes from you. Canada has a socialist system and means free healthcare for people. So do Western European countries. At the end, it seems that Canada and Western Europe suffers more from offering "free" healthcare, in spite of its quality, to any and all people more than the US does. And perhaps it's that concept of free healthcare that causes the degradation of health treatment and services.

She should be deported before or after the transplant?? once the transplant is done, it is actually MORE difficult and MORE expensive to keep her alive than before the transplant. Obviously AFTER the transplant she has greater likelihood of extending her LIFE BUT it requires a lot more care.

AlexRuiz had it right. Deport her as soon as it becomes known that she is illegal. you have to stabilize her, but we are not responsible for maintaining the medical care necessary to keep her alive. that is the responsibility of the mexican government as she is a mexican citizen.

OH btw, those that keep trying to say that it should be the american governments responsibility to keep illegals alive, what about the responsibility of the govt of the country that the illegal came from?? Mexico for eg. has citizens that pay taxes, as a result they have a right to expect a certain amount of responsibility from their govt. why are you letting them off scott free?

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
I did not use the word finite initially. I quoted someone elses use of that word in saying that they were wrong IMHO.

finite-
1 a : having definite or definable limits

In the case of hospital spending my point is that the limit implicit in the original phrase is not a real limit, it is a political decision. If the limit is not real then it isn't finite.

Additionally the use of words has to be taken in context. I was disputing the use of the word finite in the context of a universe of limited government spending. Someone else insisted that I was suggesting that hospital spending was infinite, a term which goes beyond the context of the original use of the word finite and in my disputing it's correctness.

you think just because it is a political decision means it has no limits?? it has limits. hospital resources are LIMITED. there is no point of argument or discussion here.

 

[Queasy]

Well, my original post generates over 150 posts within ~5 hours. So much for it not being a tough morality question.

 

[Jugernot]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Come to the U.S. and take advantage of our medical care at the expense of others? Most recent example is the case of the girl who had the wrong organs transplanted. Her mother paid $5000 to sneak her across the border and made their way to Duke University to get the transplant. Somehow, she ended up at the top of the list to receive the transplant.

I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

No, an american citizen should get the organs first...

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Well, my original post generates over 150 posts within ~5 hours. So much for it not being a tough morality question.

many of those posts had nothing to do w/ morality but about definitions of words.

it's not a morality question by the way, it's a legal question.

if an illegal is discovered they should be deported.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Queasy
Well, my original post generates over 150 posts within ~5 hours. So much for it not being a tough morality question.

many of those posts had nothing to do w/ morality but about definitions of words.

it's not a morality question by the way, it's a legal question.

if an illegal is discovered they should be deported.

Well, I agree that if an illegal is discovered they should be deported...but, do you deny them life-saving medical care before you deport them?

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Jugernot

Originally posted by: Queasy
Come to the U.S. and take advantage of our medical care at the expense of others? Most recent example is the case of the girl who had the wrong organs transplanted. Her mother paid $5000 to sneak her across the border and made their way to Duke University to get the transplant. Somehow, she ended up at the top of the list to receive the transplant.

I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

No, an american citizen should get the organs first...

close but not quite, she should never even be put on the list UNLESS her government says they will foot the bill. that is the only exception. the mexican government has the responsibility for the well being of it's citizens. if they want national autonomy than the should deal with their responsibilities also.

 

[Tom]

Additionally, in order to accept your definition of finite and infinite, then everything would be one or the other. I think this concept is entirely wrong because there is a third very large category, that that is unknowable.

Based on your definition everything that is unknowable would automatically be infinite ?

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Queasy
Well, my original post generates over 150 posts within ~5 hours. So much for it not being a tough morality question.

many of those posts had nothing to do w/ morality but about definitions of words.

it's not a morality question by the way, it's a legal question.

if an illegal is discovered they should be deported.

Well, I agree that if an illegal is discovered they should be deported...but, do you deny them life-saving medical care before you deport them?

you stabilize any medical conditions, but in her case the surgeries actually shortened her life. it wasn't an URGENT life saving medical procedure but one that attempted to lengthen her life span.

Her condition is the responsibility of her parents, her village, her town, her province, her country in that order.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Jugernot

Originally posted by: Queasy
Come to the U.S. and take advantage of our medical care at the expense of others? Most recent example is the case of the girl who had the wrong organs transplanted. Her mother paid $5000 to sneak her across the border and made their way to Duke University to get the transplant. Somehow, she ended up at the top of the list to receive the transplant.

I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

No, an american citizen should get the organs first...

close but not quite, she should never even be put on the list UNLESS her government says they will foot the bill. that is the only exception. the mexican government has the responsibility for the well being of it's citizens. if they want national autonomy than the should deal with their responsibilities also.

Unfortunately, the current Mexican administration is encouraging its unwanted people to migrate to the U.S. illegally. At the same time, they have closed off their southern borders to keep immigrants from S. American coming into Mexico.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Additionally, in order to accept your definition of finite and infinite, then everything would be one or the other. I think this concept is entirely wrong because there is a third very large category, that that is unknowable.

Based on your definition everything that is unknowable would automatically be infinite ?

Wrong, unknowable is unknowable. neither infinite or finite.

just because there is a delineation does not mean that every point in the universe belongs on that line.

Finite = Infinite

Love = Hate.

Love does not fall on the line of finite or infinite, does it mean that it does't exist? or that the definitions are wrong?? no it means they don't fall within the parameters of the definition.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Jugernot

Originally posted by: Queasy
Come to the U.S. and take advantage of our medical care at the expense of others? Most recent example is the case of the girl who had the wrong organs transplanted. Her mother paid $5000 to sneak her across the border and made their way to Duke University to get the transplant. Somehow, she ended up at the top of the list to receive the transplant.

I'm divided on this issue. I sympathize with the plight of people like this but at the same time, they are breaking some hospitals with unrecoverable costs that make it difficult for everybody else.

Link to Michelle Malkin opinion article

No, an american citizen should get the organs first...

close but not quite, she should never even be put on the list UNLESS her government says they will foot the bill. that is the only exception. the mexican government has the responsibility for the well being of it's citizens. if they want national autonomy than the should deal with their responsibilities also.

Unfortunately, the current Mexican administration is encouraging its unwanted people to migrate to the U.S. illegally. At the same time, they have closed off their southern borders to keep immigrants from S. American coming into Mexico.

So? If the mexican people feel that their government is not acting in the best interest of the majority of their citizens, then they should change their government.

 

[GoingUp]

even worse is an illegal getting to america just in time to have her baby, she has the baby in the states and Viola, the baby is a US citizen

 

"AlexRuiz had it right. Deport her as soon as it becomes known that she is illegal. you have to stabilize her, but we are not responsible for maintaining the medical care necessary to keep her alive. that is the responsibility of the mexican government as she is a mexican citizen."

Deport her as soon as she gets the transplant and immediately her health is "stabilised". I bet she's got relatives that are legal residents and can sue on her behalf. She'll have some money I'm sure from this case and won't need to be in the USA to live a decent life. (Next time those doctor's should be more careful.)

 

[Tom]

you think just because it is a political decision means it has no limits?? " it has limits. hospital resources are LIMITED."

Not really. You are in favor of limiting them so you say there is a limit. That is different than a real limit.

I'm in favor of limiting them too, as I already stated in an earlier post.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: luvly
"AlexRuiz had it right. Deport her as soon as it becomes known that she is illegal. you have to stabilize her, but we are not responsible for maintaining the medical care necessary to keep her alive. that is the responsibility of the mexican government as she is a mexican citizen."

Deport her as soon as she gets the transplant and immediately her health is "stabilised". I bet she's got relatives that are legal residents and can sue on her behalf. She'll have some money I'm sure from this case and won't need to be in the USA to live a decent life. (Next time those doctor's should be more careful.)

no, her health is not "stabilized" a transplant operation is only the beginning. follow up treatment is just as important, more time consuming, more difficult and more expensive than the surgery itself.

 

[Tom]

"Wrong, unknowable is unknowable. neither infinite or finite."


That is EXACTLY my point !! For saying that something could be neither finite or infinite I have been called an idiot, a fool, should have been aborted, etc.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
you think just because it is a political decision means it has no limits?? " it has limits. hospital resources are LIMITED."

Not really. You are in favor of limiting them so you say there is a limit. That is different than a real limit.

I'm in favor of limiting them too, as I already stated in an earlier post.

are you talking to me??

No, i'm not saying there is a limit because i'm in favor of it. i'm saying there is a limit because there IS a limit. the US GDP is just over 10 trillion dollars or was. that's a lot of money but guess what, even if we gave EVERY SINGLE BIT of that to the hospitals it would still be a LIMIT.

Even if EVERY SINGLE person in the world went down on hospital beds and DONATED ALL THEIR ORGANS and we had 7 trillion organs available, guess what that is STILL a limit.

EVEN IF EVERY SINGLE person in the world became a DOCTOR. THAT WOULD STILL BE A LIMIT.

Even if EVERY single home in america gave up it's bedrooms as hospital beds, guess what . . .

do you get it now??

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Wrong, unknowable is unknowable. neither infinite or finite."


That is EXACTLY my point !! For saying that something could be neither finite or infinite I have been called an idiot, a fool, should have been aborted, etc.

wrong you didn't change the point of discussion because you were talking quantity and where quantity goes, Finite is the OPPOSITE of Infinite.

your logical processes are severly limited. this isn't an insult it is just an observation based on your continued arguements here.

 

[Tom]

"wrong you didn't change the point of discussion because you were talking quantity and where quantity goes, Finite is the OPPOSITE of Infinite."

You are desperately trying to maintain a position that you know is incorrect. You are saying I said things I didn't say.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Americans take advantage of Canada all the time when they go there for cheaper prescription drugs.

As far as I am concerned, all's fair in love and keeping your family well. I certainly would not have balked at a chance to keep my child alive.

 

Well, not a "perfect" stability. I mean stable enough to pick up treatment at Mexico where the US doctors left. I can understand the nature of transplant in Mexico being very difficult, but once that is complete and she can be sent back to Mexico for a continuation of treatment, she should be sent over. And again, from the lawsuit (i.e., punitive and compensatory damage), I suppose it will help her get better treatment than she would typically get at Mexico.

"even worse is an illegal getting to america just in time to have her baby, she has the baby in the states and Viola, the baby is a US citizen"

I agree. That's a very common thing here in Cali.