Tough Morality Question: Is It Right For Illegal Aliens to...

[Tom]

"i'm saying there is a limit because there IS a limit. the US GDP is just over 10 trillion dollars or was."

since we are obviously discussing future spending, not past spending, otherwise there is no point to this discussion, future GDP is unknowable, not finite.

"Even if EVERY SINGLE person in the world went down on hospital beds and DONATED ALL THEIR ORGANS and we had 7 trillion organs available, guess what that is STILL a limit."

I have never discussed organs, just hospital expenditures. I already acknowledged there is a limited amount of organs. But technically the number of organs in the future is also unknowable, not finite.

"EVEN IF EVERY SINGLE person in the world became a DOCTOR. THAT WOULD STILL BE A LIMIT."

not really, since world population is also unknowable.

"ven if EVERY single home in america gave up it's bedrooms as hospital beds, guess what . . ."

number of homes built in the future- unknowable.


I told you I didn't want to argue semantics, but since you and others insist..

 

Oh, speaking of illegal aliens and the government's effort or lack thereof to control it: I saw something this week that bothered me. I was visiting the IRS' site to begin my process of filing tax. In the process, I uncovered the following: ITIN.

Now that really bothered me. Hello bureaucracy. I thought undocumented immigrants weren't allowed to have jobs, don't pay their taxes, were supposed to be deported, etc. And there's the IRS playing double agent. On the one hand collecting taxes from them and on the other hand being legalistic with a disclaimer saying it doesn't endorse unauthorised employment (i.e., illegal aliens working). I think that our government needs to be consisent with what it says and practices. And unfortunately the American people don't seem to realise that the government with its practices or lack thereof. endorses the stay of illegal aliens.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"i'm saying there is a limit because there IS a limit. the US GDP is just over 10 trillion dollars or was."

since we are obviously discussing future spending, not past spending, otherwise there is no point to this discussion, future GDP is unknowable, not finite.

"Even if EVERY SINGLE person in the world went down on hospital beds and DONATED ALL THEIR ORGANS and we had 7 trillion organs available, guess what that is STILL a limit."

I have never discussed organs, just hospital expenditures. I already acknowledged there is a limited amount of organs. But technically the number of organs in the future is also unknowable, not finite.

"EVEN IF EVERY SINGLE person in the world became a DOCTOR. THAT WOULD STILL BE A LIMIT."

not really, since world population is also unknowable.

"ven if EVERY single home in america gave up it's bedrooms as hospital beds, guess what . . ."

number of homes built in the future- unknowable.


I told you I didn't want to argue semantics, but since you and others insist..

WRONG. Future GDP IS FINITE. Unknowable but FINITE. We don't know WHAT the limit will be but we know there will be a limit.


Edit.

i'll say it again so that there is no confusion. We don't know WHAT the limit will be but that does not mean that there will be NO limit.

you eg earlier about how much money will be in your pocket, you don't know WHAT the amount will be, but we know w/o a doubt that it will be a finite amount.

 

[Tom]

"Unknowable but FINITE."


So, are you changing your earlier opinion that unknowable is another category and now saying that everything is either finite or infinite ?

You were either wrong then, or wrong now.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: luvly
Oh, speaking of illegal aliens and the government's effort or lack thereof to control it: I saw something this week that bothered me. I was visiting the IRS' site to begin my process of filing tax. In the process, I uncovered the following: ITIN.

Now that really bothered me. Hello bureaucracy. I thought undocumented immigrants weren't allowed to have jobs, don't pay their taxes, were supposed to be deported, etc. And there's the IRS playing double agent. On the one hand collecting taxes from them and on the other hand being legalistic with a disclaimer saying it doesn't endorse unauthorised employment (i.e., illegal aliens working). I think that our government needs to be consisent with what it says and practices. And unfortunately the American people don't seem to realise that the government with its practices or lack thereof. endorses the stay of illegal aliens.

ITIN's do have a real purpose behind them. A coworker who is here legally as is his wife and three children is in the position where although his wife is not allowed to work (and has no way of getting a SSN) she must have an ITIN so that he can claim her deductions on taxes.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Unknowable but FINITE."


So, are you changing your earlier opinion that unknowable is another category and now saying that everything is either finite or infinite ?

You were either wrong then, or wrong now.

i said you can change parameters of definition. eg. i gave was love hate vs finite infinite.

but you can know something to be unknowable as to an exact quantity and yet know it to be finite. on the other hand you can know something to be unknowable as to the limit of quantity.

just because you have no logic does't mean that i don't.

 

[LakAttack]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

OK, my comment was a little flip, I admit. But the point is, Americans aren't lining up to do the work that illegals do. Without them, it wouldn't get done, at least not near the cost it is now. So while there may be a point to controlling the border somewhat, building a big wall a-la Pat Buchanan will have drastic negative effects on the US.

It's true that the labor that some of these people do would cost more, but then you don't see most of us paying people to do yardwork (that's my resounding example) anyway. We do it ourselves. Richer people than I and office complexes, for instance, would end up paying more. And although that's the case, think of the money saved in cases like this one or in all of the other ways that illegals sap the money out of the system?

Weighing the pros and cons I'd think you would find that the US would be better off by keeping illegals out entirely. I think INS believes this as well and that is why a burger flipper is never going to be legally immigrated to the US except in special circumstances like religious persecution. Alternatively a PHD in physics will be. The reason is the former brings down the national skillset and productivity whereas the latter is above average, so the country wants it.

The yard work example is bad though. So you rake your own leaves, but did you build your own house? I didn't. I would venture to guess that at least 75% of the labor that developed my neighborhood was comprised of illegal immigrants who were paid far less than an american (or canadian ) worker would have been. If the developer had paid full price for all of the labor that built my house, he would not have been able to sell it to me anywhere near the price I paid for it.

The country may WANT the person with a PHD in physics, but it NEEDS concrete layers, house painters, sheetrock finishers, carpet layers, etc.

 

[Gaard]

There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: luvly
Oh, speaking of illegal aliens and the government's effort or lack thereof to control it: I saw something this week that bothered me. I was visiting the IRS' site to begin my process of filing tax. In the process, I uncovered the following: ITIN.

Now that really bothered me. Hello bureaucracy. I thought undocumented immigrants weren't allowed to have jobs, don't pay their taxes, were supposed to be deported, etc. And there's the IRS playing double agent. On the one hand collecting taxes from them and on the other hand being legalistic with a disclaimer saying it doesn't endorse unauthorised employment (i.e., illegal aliens working). I think that our government needs to be consisent with what it says and practices. And unfortunately the American people don't seem to realise that the government with its practices or lack thereof. endorses the stay of illegal aliens.

ITIN's do have a real purpose behind them. A coworker who is here legally as is his wife and three children is in the position where although his wife is not allowed to work (and has no way of getting a SSN) she must have an ITIN so that he can claim her deductions on taxes.

Thats one of the use of ITIN, but there's no doubt that its geared toward getting the illegals to pay taxes as well. IRS has never dispute this fact, and their main focus is getting tax revenue for the government. IRS even have open clinics for people that need information on how to use ITIN in place of SSN to file their taxes.
OTOH, most illegal do pay taxes (the employer is obligated to deduct them automatically by IRS), unless they're working for employer that totally "hide" them in tax purposes. But what they pay in taxes, they consume much more in term of medical, welfare aids, etc. Thats one of the reason why state like California is facing great deficit, they spend too much $$$ for these illegals.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

There is something wrong with you - you're simplifying the issue, and you're hopelessly naive. It costs huge sums of money to help everyone like this girl, and as a nation, we're already $6.4 TRILLION in the hole. You may be a smug, pious do-gooder who looks down on the rest of us, but medical care isn't free, and we're already tapped out.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

There is something wrong with you - you're simplifying the issue, and you're hopelessly naive. It costs huge sums of money to help everyone like this girl, and as a nation, we're already $6.4 TRILLION in the hole. You may be a smug, pious do-gooder who looks down on the rest of us, but medical care isn't free, and we're already tapped out.

If she were a citizen would you have a problem?

 

[alphatarget1]

this issue extends WAY beyond morality.

the medical technology is advanced enough that so many people that have bad genes (genetic disease and such) alive, which without the medical technology today they would be dead and supposedly the gene pool will become "cleaner" (without the bad genes). Our morals tell us that a human live is so important that we should preserve lives but is it really against nature or god's law/will?

how could it possible for them to fvck up on an ORGAN TRANSPLANT with the wrong blood type? So, did we waste a good heart because stupid doctors screwed up? We pay doctors so much money and yet they screw up so often it's not funny. You should see the pre-med majors and some of them has really good intelligence level to become future doctors :/

oh yeah, for those of you who think she's draining your tax money, i think they raised enough funds to cover the cost of the transplant. Many of you sickens me of saying that she's actually leeching your money when people who CARES raised funds for her so STFU.

 

[Peetoeng]

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

I share your observation. As it was said before, "it's the economy, stupid." If this were back in the late 90s boom time, this illegal issue would not have been raised.

Perhaps that is why mercy is a virtue.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

There is something wrong with you - you're simplifying the issue, and you're hopelessly naive. It costs huge sums of money to help everyone like this girl, and as a nation, we're already $6.4 TRILLION in the hole. You may be a smug, pious do-gooder who looks down on the rest of us, but medical care isn't free, and we're already tapped out.

If she were a citizen would you have a problem?

Yes; no more free lunches until all the past free lunches are paid in full. I believe it's both immoral and undemocratic for the current generation of Americans to leave future generations such a massive debt, especially where future generations are in no position to voice their own interests or even vote on the matter. The Democrats refuse to cut spending, and the Republicans refuse to increase taxes (which I don't support myself because of the negative economic repurcussions), so the two parties "compromise" by running up the national credit card bill. This must cease. Jefferson wanted to prohibit the federal government from borrowing because he foresaw this very problem.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

There is something wrong with you - you're simplifying the issue, and you're hopelessly naive. It costs huge sums of money to help everyone like this girl, and as a nation, we're already $6.4 TRILLION in the hole. You may be a smug, pious do-gooder who looks down on the rest of us, but medical care isn't free, and we're already tapped out.

If she were a citizen would you have a problem?

Yes; no more free lunches until all the past free lunches are paid in full. I believe it's both immoral and undemocratic for the current generation of Americans to leave future generations such a massive debt, especially where future generations are in no position to voice their own interests or even vote on the matter. The Democrats refuse to cut spending, and the Republicans refuse to increase taxes (which I don't support myself because of the negative economic repurcussions), so the two parties "compromise" by running up the national credit card bill. This must cease. Jefferson wanted to prohibit the federal government from borrowing because he foresaw this very problem.

Anyone without insurance is out of luck then, is that right?

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

There is something wrong with you - you're simplifying the issue, and you're hopelessly naive. It costs huge sums of money to help everyone like this girl, and as a nation, we're already $6.4 TRILLION in the hole. You may be a smug, pious do-gooder who looks down on the rest of us, but medical care isn't free, and we're already tapped out.

If she were a citizen would you have a problem?

Yes; no more free lunches until all the past free lunches are paid in full. I believe it's both immoral and undemocratic for the current generation of Americans to leave future generations such a massive debt, especially where future generations are in no position to voice their own interests or even vote on the matter. The Democrats refuse to cut spending, and the Republicans refuse to increase taxes (which I don't support myself because of the negative economic repurcussions), so the two parties "compromise" by running up the national credit card bill. This must cease. Jefferson wanted to prohibit the federal government from borrowing because he foresaw this very problem.

Anyone without insurance is out of luck then, is that right?

Of course not; they'll still have you to pay their bills.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

There is something wrong with you - you're simplifying the issue, and you're hopelessly naive. It costs huge sums of money to help everyone like this girl, and as a nation, we're already $6.4 TRILLION in the hole. You may be a smug, pious do-gooder who looks down on the rest of us, but medical care isn't free, and we're already tapped out.

If she were a citizen would you have a problem?

Yes; no more free lunches until all the past free lunches are paid in full. I believe it's both immoral and undemocratic for the current generation of Americans to leave future generations such a massive debt, especially where future generations are in no position to voice their own interests or even vote on the matter. The Democrats refuse to cut spending, and the Republicans refuse to increase taxes (which I don't support myself because of the negative economic repurcussions), so the two parties "compromise" by running up the national credit card bill. This must cease. Jefferson wanted to prohibit the federal government from borrowing because he foresaw this very problem.

Anyone without insurance is out of luck then, is that right?

Of course not; they'll still have you to pay their bills.

That's what I thought.

Just a bunch of hot air.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

There is something wrong with you - you're simplifying the issue, and you're hopelessly naive. It costs huge sums of money to help everyone like this girl, and as a nation, we're already $6.4 TRILLION in the hole. You may be a smug, pious do-gooder who looks down on the rest of us, but medical care isn't free, and we're already tapped out.

If she were a citizen would you have a problem?

Yes; no more free lunches until all the past free lunches are paid in full. I believe it's both immoral and undemocratic for the current generation of Americans to leave future generations such a massive debt, especially where future generations are in no position to voice their own interests or even vote on the matter. The Democrats refuse to cut spending, and the Republicans refuse to increase taxes (which I don't support myself because of the negative economic repurcussions), so the two parties "compromise" by running up the national credit card bill. This must cease. Jefferson wanted to prohibit the federal government from borrowing because he foresaw this very problem.

Anyone without insurance is out of luck then, is that right?

Of course not; they'll still have you to pay their bills.

That's what I thought.

Just a bunch of hot air.

It's like this, Gaard - yes, it would be nice for everyone to get free, unlimited medical care, but we, as a nation, can't afford that. What part of "$6.4 TRILLION National Debt" is unclear?!?!!? Heck, we pay nearly 20% of the federal government (roughly $330 BILLION) just paying interest on the debt; this money could otherwise go to help the poor if we weren't already paying off all the other do-gooders' ideas. I have no use for people like you who refuse to live in reality.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
There must be something wrong with me. A little girl needed medical help or die. I don't have a problem with America helping her, and I can't believe some here are saying "To hell with her...she's illegal" while patting their wallets.

Someone on the first page said It's not a humanity issue, it's a legal issue. That's a sad statement.

There is something wrong with you - you're simplifying the issue, and you're hopelessly naive. It costs huge sums of money to help everyone like this girl, and as a nation, we're already $6.4 TRILLION in the hole. You may be a smug, pious do-gooder who looks down on the rest of us, but medical care isn't free, and we're already tapped out.

If she were a citizen would you have a problem?

Yes; no more free lunches until all the past free lunches are paid in full. I believe it's both immoral and undemocratic for the current generation of Americans to leave future generations such a massive debt, especially where future generations are in no position to voice their own interests or even vote on the matter. The Democrats refuse to cut spending, and the Republicans refuse to increase taxes (which I don't support myself because of the negative economic repurcussions), so the two parties "compromise" by running up the national credit card bill. This must cease. Jefferson wanted to prohibit the federal government from borrowing because he foresaw this very problem.

Anyone without insurance is out of luck then, is that right?

Of course not; they'll still have you to pay their bills.

That's what I thought.

Just a bunch of hot air.

It's like this, Gaard - yes, it would be nice for everyone to get free, unlimited medical care, but we, as a nation, can't afford that. What part of "$6.4 TRILLION National Debt" is unclear?!?!!? Heck, we pay nearly 20% of the federal government (roughly $330 BILLION) just paying interest on the debt; this money could otherwise go to help the poor if we weren't already paying off all the other do-gooders' ideas. I have no use for people like you who refuse to live in reality.

Just answer the question. Are uninsured Americans out of luck when costly medical attention is needed?

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Gaard
Just answer the question. Are uninsured Americans out of luck when costly medical attention is needed?

If they're coming to me, yes they are. I already pay to feed, clothe, shelter, and provide health insurance for 5 people, so I'm pretty tapped. I certainly don't object to you, your church, or your private charitable foundation providing for everyone else, though.

 

[Chaotic42]

No, I don't think that it is. Charity is not the responsibility of the government, it's the responsibility of the people. Everyone who thinks that they should be allowed to get priority over an American citizen should be allowed to donate money to a fund for those things.

American money should pay for American healthcare. I realize that sounds cruel, but we can't afford to pay for everyone's health care. We have to draw a line, and I say we draw that line at our borders.

Another thing that makes me mad is that my apartment mate (not roomate, he lives in the same building) got deported back to his home country in Europe (I forget which one, I think it was Romania, not sure though) because he didn't make enough money as a nurse.

This guy worked his butt off to get his LPN license, and they deport his because he doesn't make enough money? Yet they let illegal immigrants come over and have 15 kids and get welfare?

Just pisses me off.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
Just answer the question. Are uninsured Americans out of luck when costly medical attention is needed?

If they're coming to me, yes they are. I already pay to feed, clothe, shelter, and provide health insurance for 5 people, so I'm pretty tapped. I certainly don't object to you, your church, or your private charitable foundation providing for everyone else, though.

Just so I understand you correctly...
The fact that this girl is an illegal alien doesn't factor into your opinion that it was wrong for us to help her. The only reason you don't agree with this girl getting help in the states is because neither she nor her family can pay for the help. Is that a correct?

 

[C'DaleRider]

it's just a shame this happened to the girl, considering the operation was completely paid for before hand and she waited 3 years for the organs.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42
No, I don't think that it is. Charity is not the responsibility of the government, it's the responsibility of the people. Everyone who thinks that they should be allowed to get priority over an American citizen should be allowed to donate money to a fund for those things.

American money should pay for American healthcare. I realize that sounds cruel, but we can't afford to pay for everyone's health care. We have to draw a line, and I say we draw that line at our borders.

Another thing that makes me mad is that my apartment mate (not roomate, he lives in the same building) got deported back to his home country in Europe (I forget which one, I think it was Romania, not sure though) because he didn't make enough money as a nurse.

This guy worked his butt off to get his LPN license, and they deport his because he doesn't make enough money? Yet they let illegal immigrants come over and have 15 kids and get welfare?

Just pisses me off.

especially considering the nursing shortage we have in the US right now. I'm surprised that no one sponsored him. I'm sure someone would have in NJ because we have such a shortage of nurses.

 

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Tough Morality Question: Is It Right For Illegal Aliens to...


live? no.