Tough Morality Question: Is It Right For Illegal Aliens to...

[Down4U]

How is that the point. We decide where our tax dollars go. or we should where in the constitution or the federal budget or a state constitution or a state budget does it say, we are allocating these resources for Illegal Aliens.

IT DOESN'T.

also your missing the point of the story, it wasn't just MONEY that was limited, there are ONLY a limited number of ORGANS available for Transplant.

There should be some sort of prioritization on which situations like this would be handled. My whole point is that just because the person in need is an illegal alien that shouldn't conclude that they are totally on their own about the situation. Illegal aliens are not accounted for when a census is done, and therefore they are already excluded from help that could have been accomodated for them should they be allowed to participate in that head count.

Once again, this is not an issue of whereas we totally choose where our tax money goes, but how it is actually handled.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: LeeTJ



so now u resort to personal insults again.

No, i don't get it. that's life. TOUGH CHOICES. We are talking extreme situations here not ordinary circumstances. OF COURSE IF RESOURCES WERE UNLIMITED it wouldn't require a tough choice, BUT THEY ARE. once you've established that resources are limited, what is so sick about the decision making process?? how else would you do it?? would you look into their characters to determine which is more worthy?? not based on nationality or skin color but of the character of the person?? oh wait a minute that becomes almost impossible, but still people should not be judged on shallow thinks like nationality, color of skin, language, or financial resource but on their CHARACTERS. so now we have to spend weeks even MONTHS in order to get to know the CHARACTERS of these poor patients before we decide WHERE to allocate limited resources.

hmmmm. ya, that's really realistic.

It's not SICK, it's life.

NO, you don't get it and you're the one that resorted to insults first.

And your post has nothing to do with what I wrote since it appears you have little ability for reading comprehension.

I said "Not saying whether we should treat her or not". <-- You see that?

But you keep jumping to the conclusion that I think we should treat her anyway.

I said "When you add in that she is Mexican, lack of money, and your "resources" only then would people prefer to let her die".

But you seem to be unable to even picture the situation without these things. It's called a "theoretical question". Look it up.

I think you mean "rhetorical question" don't you, as in a question that doesn't desire an answer but is trying to make a statement??

as far as I can see, your question doesn't ask or propose a theory so it would be difficult for me to call it a "theoretical question".

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Down4U

How is that the point. We decide where our tax dollars go. or we should where in the constitution or the federal budget or a state constitution or a state budget does it say, we are allocating these resources for Illegal Aliens.

IT DOESN'T.

also your missing the point of the story, it wasn't just MONEY that was limited, there are ONLY a limited number of ORGANS available for Transplant.

There should be some sort of prioritization on which situations like this would be handled. My whole point is that just because the person in need is an illegal alien that shouldn't conclude that they are totally on their own about the situation. Illegal aliens are not accounted for when a census is done, and therefore they are already excluded from help that could have been accomodated for them should they be allowed to participate in that head count.

Once again, this is not an issue of whereas we totally choose where our tax money goes, but how it is actually handled.

Once again, the point of this thread is, Limited resource were given to an Illegal when american citizens who were waiting for the same heart was denied AND also the hospital put in an incompatible organ so now they will probably be sued on top of what they've already put into the situation.

the response to that situation is, she should not have been at the top of the list.

 

[Down4U]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Down4U

How is that the point. We decide where our tax dollars go. or we should where in the constitution or the federal budget or a state constitution or a state budget does it say, we are allocating these resources for Illegal Aliens.

IT DOESN'T.

also your missing the point of the story, it wasn't just MONEY that was limited, there are ONLY a limited number of ORGANS available for Transplant.

There should be some sort of prioritization on which situations like this would be handled. My whole point is that just because the person in need is an illegal alien that shouldn't conclude that they are totally on their own about the situation. Illegal aliens are not accounted for when a census is done, and therefore they are already excluded from help that could have been accomodated for them should they be allowed to participate in that head count.

Once again, this is not an issue of whereas we totally choose where our tax money goes, but how it is actually handled.

Once again, the point of this thread is, Limited resource were given to an Illegal when american citizens who were waiting for the same heart was denied AND also the hospital put in an incompatible organ so now they will probably be sued on top of what they've already put into the situation.

the response to that situation is, she should not have been at the top of the list.

The only reason why she was given priority was due to the hospital's clerical screw-up with her organ transplant. I'm pretty sure she'd otherwise been put in the back of the queue just like everyone else. The hospital can now only hope this doesn't cost them a lawsuit, seeing how they were extremely accomodating after the matter.

 

[brtspears2]

Shoot I got a concussion, all I got was "go away, it will go away in 4 months"

2 months down, 2 to go...

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: LeeTJ



so now u resort to personal insults again.

No, i don't get it. that's life. TOUGH CHOICES. We are talking extreme situations here not ordinary circumstances. OF COURSE IF RESOURCES WERE UNLIMITED it wouldn't require a tough choice, BUT THEY ARE. once you've established that resources are limited, what is so sick about the decision making process?? how else would you do it?? would you look into their characters to determine which is more worthy?? not based on nationality or skin color but of the character of the person?? oh wait a minute that becomes almost impossible, but still people should not be judged on shallow thinks like nationality, color of skin, language, or financial resource but on their CHARACTERS. so now we have to spend weeks even MONTHS in order to get to know the CHARACTERS of these poor patients before we decide WHERE to allocate limited resources.

hmmmm. ya, that's really realistic.

It's not SICK, it's life.

NO, you don't get it and you're the one that resorted to insults first.

And your post has nothing to do with what I wrote since it appears you have little ability for reading comprehension.

I said "Not saying whether we should treat her or not". <-- You see that?

But you keep jumping to the conclusion that I think we should treat her anyway.

I said "When you add in that she is Mexican, lack of money, and your "resources" only then would people prefer to let her die".

But you seem to be unable to even picture the situation without these things. It's called a "theoretical question". Look it up.

I think you mean "rhetorical question" don't you, as in a question that doesn't desire an answer but is trying to make a statement??

as far as I can see, your question doesn't ask or propose a theory so it would be difficult for me to call it a "theoretical question".

No it's not rhetorical because it does require an answer,

It is posed as "given these circumstances -> what then?", "given other circumstances -> what then?", "what has changed?"....then a conclusion (theory->sick setup) based on the findings.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: LeeTJ



so now u resort to personal insults again.

No, i don't get it. that's life. TOUGH CHOICES. We are talking extreme situations here not ordinary circumstances. OF COURSE IF RESOURCES WERE UNLIMITED it wouldn't require a tough choice, BUT THEY ARE. once you've established that resources are limited, what is so sick about the decision making process?? how else would you do it?? would you look into their characters to determine which is more worthy?? not based on nationality or skin color but of the character of the person?? oh wait a minute that becomes almost impossible, but still people should not be judged on shallow thinks like nationality, color of skin, language, or financial resource but on their CHARACTERS. so now we have to spend weeks even MONTHS in order to get to know the CHARACTERS of these poor patients before we decide WHERE to allocate limited resources.

hmmmm. ya, that's really realistic.

It's not SICK, it's life.

NO, you don't get it and you're the one that resorted to insults first.

And your post has nothing to do with what I wrote since it appears you have little ability for reading comprehension.

I said "Not saying whether we should treat her or not". <-- You see that?

But you keep jumping to the conclusion that I think we should treat her anyway.

I said "When you add in that she is Mexican, lack of money, and your "resources" only then would people prefer to let her die".

But you seem to be unable to even picture the situation without these things. It's called a "theoretical question". Look it up.

I think you mean "rhetorical question" don't you, as in a question that doesn't desire an answer but is trying to make a statement??

as far as I can see, your question doesn't ask or propose a theory so it would be difficult for me to call it a "theoretical question".

No it's not rhetorical because it does require an answer,

It is posed as "given these circumstances -> what then?", "given other circumstances -> what then?", "what has changed?"....then a conclusion (theory->sick setup) based on the findings.

either way the answer is the same, w/ limited resources you have to have a priority list. should that list be based solely on money?? NO, should money be a consideration, Of Course. Should it be based solely on citizenship, NO, but can you ignore it, NO.

in her case she should not have been a priority and there is NOTHING sick about it, that's just how the world revolves.

 

[Red Dawn]

I could be wrong but I'd think in this case the services being rendered isn't be paid for by the Taxpayer, it's the Surgeons and the University( using private donations or grants) who are footing the bill and the procedure probably is being classified as research.

 

[dahunan]

IT would be one helluva lot cheaper to fly their damn ASSES BACK TO MEXICO TO GET TREATMENT

WHYTF DOES AMERICA ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE


Why doesn't the MEDIA CALL HER AN ILLEGAL in all the heartwrenching media reports???

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I could be wrong but I'd think in this case the services being rendered isn't be paid for by the Taxpayer, it's the Surgeons and the University( using private donations or grants) who are footing the bill and the procedure probably is being classified as research.

if the hospital gets sued, it will be paid by malpractice insurance and that cost will get passed on to all doctors.

our healthcare system is a mess. doctors are getting killed financially. we don't need more million dollar malpractice judgements to make that worse.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: dahunan
IT would be one helluva lot cheaper to fly their damn ASSES BACK TO MEXICO TO GET TREATMENT

WHYTF DOES AMERICA ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE


Why doesn't the MEDIA CALL HER AN ILLEGAL in all the heartwrenching media reports???

Cause it is not part of their agenda.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Down4U

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: edro13
No it's not moral...... because an American life is worth so much more than a Mexican life.

Just like how when an American dies..... it makes CNN in about 10 minutes. Yet thousands of Africans die every day from AIDS..... but hey..... their lives don't matter.

Put your money where your mouth is pal. If you want to pay for the medical care of the billions of poor in this world, be my guest. But don't force me to do it.

I guess I could now begin to understand why the Middle Easterners were happy that 9/11 happened.

How much aid do Islamic countries send to the poor in the US? Where's there generosity? Oh yeah, I forgot. The dictators in ass-backwards Islamic countries prefer to build palaces and weapons to feeding anybody.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I could be wrong but I'd think in this case the services being rendered isn't be paid for by the Taxpayer, it's the Surgeons and the University( using private donations or grants) who are footing the bill and the procedure probably is being classified as research.

if the hospital gets sued, it will be paid by malpractice insurance and that cost will get passed on to all doctors.

our healthcare system is a mess. doctors are getting killed financially. we don't need more million dollar malpractice judgements to make that worse.

Well how is that a fault of an illegal Alien? It was a horrific blunder on the part of the Medical Center and they deserved to be sued for it. Frivilous lawsuits are one thing but this one would have merit to say the least. The nationality of the patient in thios case has nothing to do with it.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: dahunan
IT would be one helluva lot cheaper to fly their damn ASSES BACK TO MEXICO TO GET TREATMENT

WHYTF DOES AMERICA ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE


Why doesn't the MEDIA CALL HER AN ILLEGAL in all the heartwrenching media reports???

I don't know. Right now CNN makes no mention of it beyond calling her a Mexican (on their front page story). Foxnews goes a bit better saying she moved from Mexico 3 years ago to stay with relatives.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Hospital resources are finite and medical care given to somebody not paying taxes is medical care not given to somebody who is."

baloney.

Are you on crack?

How are medical resources not finite?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Down4U

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: edro13
No it's not moral...... because an American life is worth so much more than a Mexican life.

Just like how when an American dies..... it makes CNN in about 10 minutes. Yet thousands of Africans die every day from AIDS..... but hey..... their lives don't matter.

Put your money where your mouth is pal. If you want to pay for the medical care of the billions of poor in this world, be my guest. But don't force me to do it.

I guess I could now begin to understand why the Middle Easterners were happy that 9/11 happened.

How much aid do Islamic countries send to the poor in the US? Where's there generosity? Oh yeah, I forgot. The dictators in ass-backwards Islamic countries prefer to build palaces and weapons to feeding anybody.

Dude we pour aid into the Middle Eastern Countries where is does our Country the most good, not the Country or it Citizens we are giving it too. If they benefit greatly from it then that is only a by product.

 

[StageLeft]

Well how is that a fault of an illegal Alien? It was a horrific blunder on the part of the Medical Center and they deserved to be sued for it. Frivilous lawsuits are one thing but this one would have merit to say the least. The nationality of the patient in thios case has nothing to do with it.

The fact is an illegal should not be getting medical treatment in the first place - or, less harsh than that - if they are going to get it the hospital should have zero liability. The health system is already generous enough to give people health care without any identification of any kind and give them the benefit of the doubt. Once it's found out that the patient is an illegal and shouldn't be in the country in the first place (thus they would not be able to get care), maintaining the hospital's liabilty simply does not compute with me.

 

[Keego]

I always just look at the base question, is it legal? If not.. Then no, it's not right.


(And in my opinion, it's not right!)

 

[Tom]

skoorb, I think, said- "Hospital resources are finite. "
I said-"baloney."
you said-"and just exactly what does oscar meyer have to do the state of healthcare in the US? "

Hospital resources aren't finite. It's just a matter of what we choose to do.

Some people just prefer to let people die so they can drive a Maxima instead of an Altima. Luckily, these people aren't completely in charge of the world, yet.


On the subject of illegal immigration, the biggest complainers about "illegal" immigration are frequently the same people who think they believe in free market economic principals of supply and demand..

 

[LakAttack]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I could be wrong but I'd think in this case the services being rendered isn't be paid for by the Taxpayer, it's the Surgeons and the University( using private donations or grants) who are footing the bill and the procedure probably is being classified as research.

if the hospital gets sued, it will be paid by malpractice insurance and that cost will get passed on to all doctors.

our healthcare system is a mess. doctors are getting killed financially. we don't need more million dollar malpractice judgements to make that worse.

Sure - my porsche driving doctor with 9-4 hours (and a 1.5 hour lunch) is really getting killed financially. If someone fvcks up, they should pay the price.

And no one wants to talk about how much money illegal immigrants SAVE american taxpayers by doing a bunch of work NO ONE HERE wants to do for a fraction of the price. Like that house you just bought? It would have cost a hell of a lot more if all of the labor had been "legal americans." Illegals contribute a ton to our society, but they can't use our hospitals? Give me a break.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Well how is that a fault of an illegal Alien? It was a horrific blunder on the part of the Medical Center and they deserved to be sued for it. Frivilous lawsuits are one thing but this one would have merit to say the least. The nationality of the patient in thios case has nothing to do with it.

The fact is an illegal should not be getting medical treatment in the first place - or, less harsh than that - if they are going to get it the hospital should have zero liability. The health system is already generous enough to give people health care without any identification of any kind and give them the benefit of the doubt. Once it's found out that the patient is an illegal and shouldn't be in the country in the first place (thus they would not be able to get care), maintaining the hospital's liabilty simply does not compute with me.

So Illegal Aliens who are used for Medical Research should be considered expendable and without recourse if the Doctor or Medical Center is incompetent?

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Keego
I always just look at the base question, is it legal? If not.. Then no, it's not right.


(And in my opinion, it's not right!)

Right, but we are no longer a nation with any laws..... or geographic boundaries....

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Well how is that a fault of an illegal Alien? It was a horrific blunder on the part of the Medical Center and they deserved to be sued for it. Frivilous lawsuits are one thing but this one would have merit to say the least. The nationality of the patient in thios case has nothing to do with it.

The fact is an illegal should not be getting medical treatment in the first place - or, less harsh than that - if they are going to get it the hospital should have zero liability. The health system is already generous enough to give people health care without any identification of any kind and give them the benefit of the doubt. Once it's found out that the patient is an illegal and shouldn't be in the country in the first place (thus they would not be able to get care), maintaining the hospital's liabilty simply does not compute with me.

So Illegal Aliens who are used for Medical Research should be considered expendable and without recourse if the Doctor or Medical Center is incompetent?

So you think Illegals are being used like Guinea Pigs on the Island Of Dr. Moreau or are they being given the EXACT same treatment as the people who have to have both parents working in order to survive and pay taxes in this great nation?

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

either way the answer is the same, w/ limited resources you have to have a priority list. should that list be based solely on money?? NO, should money be a consideration, Of Course. Should it be based solely on citizenship, NO, but can you ignore it, NO.

in her case she should not have been a priority and there is NOTHING sick about it, that's just how the world revolves.

Either way you completely miss the point once again.

I'll try one more time though...


If the question was posed without ANY OTHER information:

Should we save a teenage girls life if we can? Answer -> Of Course!

Then:

Should we save a poor mexican girls life with our limited resources? Answer -> Probably not.

Conclusion: I find it both sad and sick that the way the "system" (substitute: law, hospitals, or world if necessary) works currently forces us to make a decision on whether a teenage girl lives or dies based on money, resources, and nationality.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
skoorb, I think, said- "Hospital resources are finite. "
I said-"baloney."
you said-"and just exactly what does oscar meyer have to do the state of healthcare in the US? "

Hospital resources aren't finite. It's just a matter of what we choose to do.

Some people just prefer to let people die so they can drive a Maxima instead of an Altima. Luckily, these people aren't completely in charge of the world, yet.


On the subject of illegal immigration, the biggest complainers about "illegal" immigration are frequently the same people who think they believe in free market economic principals of supply and demand..

Actually I didn't make the oscar meyer comment, though I did chuckle at who did

Hospital resources currently ARE finite. And before you condemn me for driving a Maxima instead of an Altima show me a picture of the tent you live in, the outhouse you use as a toilet, and the kraft macaroni and cheese and vitamin pills you feed your children, and then I'll give it some thought.

If there are 50 people who need transplants and 40 organs to go around 10 won't get them. Of those 10 should they be illegals who shouldn't be in the country receiving medical treatment in the first place, or taxpayers who are paying for that treatment? It's a nasty choice, but 10 people are not getting organs. Seems fair to me it's those who didn't pay for anything who should not be getting the organs.

I don't necessarily think that illegals should be ignored for medical treatment. If one comes in with a gunshot it is inhumane to say "Sorry, go back to mexico" and kick them out the front door. HOWEVER, since they aren't paying a penny for it they should be glad that they're getting treatment; holding the hospital liable is ridiculous.