"Tom Brady prefer his balls to feel a certain way" - balls underinflated

[Ban Bot]

No, my point stands. The Patriots are being overly punished by being repeat offenders for an event that happened 8 years after the first with an event that had 0 similarities to the first and didn't even include the same people. Whereas we have this.

Carroll's fine was "at least" $100,000 and the Seahawks team was penalized "in excess of $200,000." The penalties are reportedly the result of too much contact between players during a June 16 OTA practice, according to ESPN's sources.

Per the CBA rules, Seahawks players are not permitted to be at the facility on the days of the lost practices, but will be paid for the sessions. The club cannot reschedule the cancelled days either.

This is not the first time that the Seahawks have been fined for violating practice rules during the offseason. Seattle was fined an undisclosed amount in 2012 for a similar violation and lost two OTA practices, and the team was also docked a practice last year for excessive physicality. The 2012 violations were also under the supervision of Carroll and the coach admitted at that time that it was a "learning process" for himself and the coaching staff.

Your example actually proves a point:

The NFL comes down harder on repeat offenders. Even if incidental.

Seattle was in trouble in 2012 for contact. What happened in 2014 was Brian Walters did a sideline route but Byron Maxwell who was in coverage went high over Walters to knock down the ball. Contact happened when Maxwell came down on Walters as they were both making a play on a high ball on the sideline. Walters was crushed under Maxwell as both went to the ground and was injured.

Tempers flared and a near fight ensued between iirc Phil Bates, Ricardo Lockett, Richard Sherman, Byron Maxwell, and Doug Baldwin. This was at an open practice and all caught on video.

The NFL got wind of the incident and, based on Seattle's 2012 infraction, penalized Seattle as a repeat offender even though reports from the practice were they were within the rules.

The Jags haven't been nailed for the Fowler injury as there was contact but nothing outside the norm at non-contact practices. If the Jags had been repeat offenders and a fight broke out there is a good chance they would have been. Them the breaks.

So back to the Pats:

You claim there is no similarity. Most would disagree. The issue is cheating/integrity of the game. These events are being caught during the playoffs. Same owner, front office, coach, and QB.

Using your logical the Pats could only be nailed as repeat offenders if they were caught videotaping again.

The issue is the Pats like to push the edge. And keep getting caught. And make a big stink out of it in a way that looks bad on the league.

Seattle didn't make a stink out of the practice situation. The Browns didn't make a stink out of the Farmer texting. The Falcons didn't make a stink out of the piped in crown noise. The Ravens cooperated with the Ray Rice situation. Ditto Minnesota with Peterson. Ditto Carolina with Hardy. You don't hear them saying they will fully cooperate and then don't or demand absolute evidence and whine in the press when that isn't the standard of exploration and NFL sanction.

You have clearly not read

Yeah, this meme again. This from the guy who keeps parroting the $25,000 "talking point" even though it has been pointed out a number of times.

The bottom line for me is I don't think the ball doctoring was a big deal. I am confident Brady was in on it and if he fessed up and spun it this would have gone away. Still cheating, but whatever. Kraft and Brady through their subsequent actions made this issue a LOT worse and deserve what they got. I don't think anyone who has read the texts can with a straight face say they 100% believe nothing was being done to the balls. Everything from Brady lobbying to "prep balls" in 2007, to deny knowing McNally, to their equipment guy being known as the deflator and the balls inappropriately being taken to the field by the equipment guy who ditched into a bathroom instead of letting the refs take the balls to the field per protocol. There is a boatload of circumstantial evidence and the lies and lack of cooperation made it difficult to dismiss the accusation.

At least we get something good out of this: NFL in May.

Don't feel bad Pat fans. The 90's 49ers have a legacy of bypassing the cap (cheating). The Broncos were nailed for the same (cheating). The 90s Cowboys for all their off field issues (criminals). The 90's Packers had a QB on pain killers and as we find out an all pro safety who drugs women. The great Giant teams of the 80s and early 90s had such off field saints like Taylor and Maggot. How about Ray Lewis starting off their first SB year in an orange jumpsuit?--in today's NFL he would have never played that year. Fans only remember your misdeeds if you are good. There have been some travesties in recent years (the KC players murder suicide, Ray Caruth, etc.) but those aren't brought up often. Everyone will remember the Pats as the cheaters (#SpyGate #DeflateGate) with the killer TEs--both figuratively (Gronk) and literally (Hernandez). To outlive the SpyGate shadow and to restore their legacy Bill and Tom would have needed to be choir boys for the rest of their careers. That wasn't gonna happen.

 

[Phoenix86]

@Ban Bot, don't waste your time with him.

And you know damn well that La'el Collins comment is off base. Hardy, sure, I mean I don't exactly know what your point is, but I'll give you Hardy was exceedingly questionable.

Collins was screwed by events out of his control and incredibly bad timing. Not only was he never charged, he wasn't a suspect. He was someone they wanted to talk to because, ya know, is GF (wife?) just got shot. "Not a suspect" is language as strong as it gets from police when saying "they didn't do it". Anything else and he'd have been a "person of interest".

 

[brainhulk]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...octored-footballs/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Former NFL quarterback A.J. Feeley says the Patriots were breaking the rules about properly preparing footballs long before Deflategate.

Feeley said on 97.5 The Fanatic that when he was playing for the Dolphins in 2004, he saw Patriots quarterback Tom Brady using old, broken-in balls at a time when NFL rules said that teams had to use new balls provided by the league.

“Prior to Tommy and Peyton Manning going to the league and saying, ‘Let us doctor our balls’ we used to all play with the same balls,” Feeley said. “Somehow this beat-up ball from the ball boy was getting thrown in on offense for New England, yet when we were on offense this orange brand new ball was getting thrown in.”

Feeley says Brady was getting an advantage, and Feeley had a problem with it.

“He’s getting his own balls thrown in on offense,” Feeley said. “That was an issue to me at the time. . . . We saw it then.”

 

[emperus]

Your example actually proves a point:
So back to the Pats:

You claim there is no similarity. Most would disagree. The issue is cheating/integrity of the game. These events are being caught during the playoffs. Same owner, front office, coach, and QB.

Using your logical the Pats could only be nailed as repeat offenders if they were caught videotaping again.

The issue is the Pats like to push the edge. And keep getting caught. And make a big stink out of it in a way that looks bad on the league.

Simple question. Is there any fine the NFL could impose that wouldn't be related to cheating/integrity of the game? So, any and all times any team gets fined, wouldn't that make them repeat offenders? That logic doesn't make sense would it?

And back to the question I asked Phoenix. What length of time do you think is sufficient for a team to no longer be considered a repeat offender if they get fined for something. 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

 

[emperus]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...octored-footballs/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

So, where were the refs in all of this? The refs handle the ball every snap. Geez.

 

[Phoenix86]

And back to the question I asked Phoenix. What length of time do you think is sufficient for a team to no longer be considered a repeat offender if they get fined for something. 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

The issue is cheating/integrity of the game. These events are being caught during the playoffs. Same owner, front office, coach, and QB.

Using your logical the Pats could only be nailed as repeat offenders if they were caught videotaping again.

And it's the same answer that I gave you (multiple times) that you fail to acknowledge, almost word for word.

So what's your excuse for not understanding a simple statement made multiple times?

 

[emperus]

And it's the same answer that I gave you (multiple times) that you fail to acknowledge, almost word for word.

So what's your excuse for not understanding a simple statement made multiple times?

Yes, you did. I'm a logical thinker. Give me a rule to define when someone can be charged as a repeat offender. Is it one of 4, 2 of 4, 3 of 4, or all 4 having to be around?

 

[cronos]

Yes, you did. I'm a logical thinker. Give me a rule to define when someone can be charged as a repeat offender. Is it one of 4, 2 of 4, 3 of 4, or all 4 having to be around?

Let's start with all four. How about that.

 

[cabri]

So, where were the refs in all of this? The refs handle the ball every snap. Geez.

This ^^^
The complete NFL system was complicit.

The supposed problem had been brought up and ignored.
Those that had the responsibility for the NFL of ensuring the "integrity" chose to do nothing.

Other teams had been identified with "manipulation" of the pressure.

Proper standards were not used nor tracked.

It was a hit piece; possibly aggravated due to the Ravens' game

 

[cabri]

Former NFL quarterback A.J. Feeley says the Patriots were breaking the rules about properly preparing footballs long before Deflategate.

Feeley said on 97.5 The Fanatic that when he was playing for the Dolphins in 2004, he saw Patriots quarterback Tom Brady using old, broken-in balls at a time when NFL rules said that teams had to use new balls provided by the league.

“Prior to Tommy and Peyton Manning going to the league and saying, ‘Let us doctor our balls’ we used to all play with the same balls,” Feeley said. “Somehow this beat-up ball from the ball boy was getting thrown in on offense for New England, yet when we were on offense this orange brand new ball was getting thrown in.”

Feeley says Brady was getting an advantage, and Feeley had a problem with it.

“He’s getting his own balls thrown in on offense,” Feeley said. “That was an issue to me at the time. . . . We saw it then.”

Yet no one decided to say anything

 

[Genx87]

This ^^^
The complete NFL system was complicit.

The supposed problem had been brought up and ignored.
Those that had the responsibility for the NFL of ensuring the "integrity" chose to do nothing.

Other teams had been identified with "manipulation" of the pressure.

Proper standards were not used nor tracked.

It was a hit piece; possibly aggravated due to the Ravens' game

The NFL was complicit and acted after the fact. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread. It is like if the NFL reviewed Patriots film from the entire year then fined\banned\took away draft picks for holding(cheating) when the refs didn't call it every time it happened.

 

[norseamd]

Just be thankful for all the bullshit and support it being able to continue for a while now. The more this shit goes on the greater the fireworks are going to be and the more the NFL is going to get reformed.

 

[Anubis]

every person I explain this to always asks the same question

"why does the NFL not controls the balls 100%" I tell them why and they all say " that's the stupidest thing ive ever fucking heard"

its really their own fault this happened

 

[techs]

There is one thing I am unsure of. Didn't I read that the NFL had ordered the officials to inflate the balls to a pound OVER pressure? If so, then wouldn't the NFL be at fault and should be fined and lose the right to hold next years draft day?

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Just be thankful for all the bullshit and support it being able to continue for a while now. The more this shit goes on the greater the fireworks are going to be and the more the NFL is going to get reformed.

i've been saying on these forums for a while now how the nfl is a house of cards. burn it down? bump the table? open a window? some damn thing, let's go!

i've been reading the series of events, from the ravens game to the verdict, and the only conclusion to be had is that the colts and especially the league are absolute jokes. like any sports organization acting to protect "the integrity of the game" or countering "bringing the sport into disrepute" the very biggest culprit is the league itself.

 

[norseamd]

http://www.slate.com/articles/sport..._became_nearly_fumble_proof_after_a_2006.html

 

[The Boston Dangler]

http://www.slate.com/articles/sport..._became_nearly_fumble_proof_after_a_2006.html

how many times is that going to be linked to and debunked in 1 thread?

 

[BUTCH1]

Your example actually proves a point:

The NFL comes down harder on repeat offenders. Even if incidental.

Seattle was in trouble in 2012 for contact. What happened in 2014 was Brian Walters did a sideline route but Byron Maxwell who was in coverage went high over Walters to knock down the ball. Contact happened when Maxwell came down on Walters as they were both making a play on a high ball on the sideline. Walters was crushed under Maxwell as both went to the ground and was injured.

Tempers flared and a near fight ensued between iirc Phil Bates, Ricardo Lockett, Richard Sherman, Byron Maxwell, and Doug Baldwin. This was at an open practice and all caught on video.

The NFL got wind of the incident and, based on Seattle's 2012 infraction, penalized Seattle as a repeat offender even though reports from the practice were they were within the rules.

The Jags haven't been nailed for the Fowler injury as there was contact but nothing outside the norm at non-contact practices. If the Jags had been repeat offenders and a fight broke out there is a good chance they would have been. Them the breaks.

So back to the Pats:

You claim there is no similarity. Most would disagree. The issue is cheating/integrity of the game. These events are being caught during the playoffs. Same owner, front office, coach, and QB.

Using your logical the Pats could only be nailed as repeat offenders if they were caught videotaping again.

The issue is the Pats like to push the edge. And keep getting caught. And make a big stink out of it in a way that looks bad on the league.

Seattle didn't make a stink out of the practice situation. The Browns didn't make a stink out of the Farmer texting. The Falcons didn't make a stink out of the piped in crown noise. The Ravens cooperated with the Ray Rice situation. Ditto Minnesota with Peterson. Ditto Carolina with Hardy. You don't hear them saying they will fully cooperate and then don't or demand absolute evidence and whine in the press when that isn't the standard of exploration and NFL sanction.



Yeah, this meme again. This from the guy who keeps parroting the $25,000 "talking point" even though it has been pointed out a number of times.

The bottom line for me is I don't think the ball doctoring was a big deal. I am confident Brady was in on it and if he fessed up and spun it this would have gone away. Still cheating, but whatever. Kraft and Brady through their subsequent actions made this issue a LOT worse and deserve what they got. I don't think anyone who has read the texts can with a straight face say they 100% believe nothing was being done to the balls. Everything from Brady lobbying to "prep balls" in 2007, to deny knowing McNally, to their equipment guy being known as the deflator and the balls inappropriately being taken to the field by the equipment guy who ditched into a bathroom instead of letting the refs take the balls to the field per protocol. There is a boatload of circumstantial evidence and the lies and lack of cooperation made it difficult to dismiss the accusation.

At least we get something good out of this: NFL in May.

Don't feel bad Pat fans. The 90's 49ers have a legacy of bypassing the cap (cheating). The Broncos were nailed for the same (cheating). The 90s Cowboys for all their off field issues (criminals). The 90's Packers had a QB on pain killers and as we find out an all pro safety who drugs women. The great Giant teams of the 80s and early 90s had such off field saints like Taylor and Maggot. How about Ray Lewis starting off their first SB year in an orange jumpsuit?--in today's NFL he would have never played that year. Fans only remember your misdeeds if you are good. There have been some travesties in recent years (the KC players murder suicide, Ray Caruth, etc.) but those aren't brought up often. Everyone will remember the Pats as the cheaters (#SpyGate #DeflateGate) with the killer TEs--both figuratively (Gronk) and literally (Hernandez). To outlive the SpyGate shadow and to restore their legacy Bill and Tom would have needed to be choir boys for the rest of their careers. That wasn't gonna happen.

1st off, I (as a 40+year Pat fan) agree that the circumstantial evidence is very damming and I do believe tampering was going on. With that out of the way you mention that the Pat's didn't corroborate in the spygate deal when in fact they did, they were asked and in fact handed over all the relevant recorded information. Goodell explained the harsh penalties were because he had sent a recent memo to all teams reminding them it's not within the rules to tape from the sidelines and he was clearly annoyed the Patriots chose to ignore this memo so soon after it was issued. IMHO it's bullshit to again take away draft picks 8 years later when the Wells report was clear that coaches and management had no idea that Brady was having the PSI dropped a bit to his liking, it's like a cop giving you a ticket 8 years ago for speeding for $150 and your car got caught speeding again 8 years later so now it's $300. Meanwhile you weren't even driving the car that day!. As for Brady he simply should have denied any/all interviews before the SB and when the game was finished sit down with Wells/Goodell or have a press conference and admit he was behind the altering of the ball pressure, maybe try and spin it has "I didn't think it was that big a deal", whatever, he would have probably gotten a one game suspension and a hefty fine but more importantly he could portray himself as someone who came up with a really dumb idea and apologize to the league, his owner, coaches, fans. I think most people would eventually get over it as the Colt game was a blow-out anyway and at least he had the balls (pun intended) to come clean with what really happened. Now with his lawyers trying to "spin" it has an attack on Brady only will deepen the already substantial dislike for how he handled this incident because a five year old can tell he was behind it.

 

[Phoenix86]

how many times is that going to be linked to and debunked in 1 thread?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37385596&postcount=982

The debunking was terrible and lends credit to the possible conclusion. It supports the facts that leads to the conclusion and does little to dispel the facts presented.

There are a few decent points made in the rebuttal but it does not debunk it by any means.

 

[norseamd]

Yawn

http://insidethepylon.com/football-.../27/fumbling-data-truth-patriots-fumble-rate/

http://regressing.deadspin.com/why-those-statistics-about-the-patriots-fumbles-are-mos-1681805710

Gawker has basically no type of credibility. 538 often has some very good statistical analysis.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37385596&postcount=982

The debunking was terrible and lends credit to the possible conclusion. It supports the facts that leads to the conclusion and does little to dispel the facts presented.

There are a few decent points made in the rebuttal but it does not debunk it by any means.

no, actually the debunking is pretty solid and the author of those bogus numbers is obviously full of crap.

so let's say the chart linked (and not any of the author's subsequent revisions that bring the grand total from 88% down to 23%) has some basis in reality. explain how this proves anything other than the patriots fumbling the ball less.

you can't, because it's bullshit.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Gawker has basically no type of credibility. 538 often has some very good statistical analysis.

no, what has basically no type of credibility is sharp and his chart.

 

[emperus]

And for those that think the Patriots cheat more than anybody else.
http://yourteamcheats.com/

And for those that think that Spy-gate was still a huge deal.

http://yourteamcheats.com/what-is-spygate

WHAT: The Patriots were punished for filming their 2007 regular season game against the Jets from a sideline location instead of from an approved filming location (e.g. a press or media box).

They were not punished for filming the Jets defensive signals, as that has never been forbidden by the NFL. As of 2006, however, where you film the game and signals is limited to approved locations. Coincidentally, the Jets had done nearly the exact same thing a year earlier but were not punished, even a little bit, by NFL commissioner and former Jets public relations intern Roger Goodell.

 

[cubby1223]

The thing that really gets me in this thread is how unbelievably protective Patriots fans are over their team and their star QB

Most of your Superbowl victories have controversies surrounding them. Just accept it.

I didn't throw a hissy-fit when Sammy Sosa was caught with a corked bat. I'm not crying foul over his exclusion from the Hall of Fame despite his 609 homeruns. He shouldn't be in the hall, he's a cheater who used steroids and at least for a while a corked bat. I'm a huge Cubs fan but I completely accept that failure.

But oh, no, Tom Brady must be perceived as the Golden Boy of the league!

Ha!

So very pathetic

He likes his balls undersized.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

The thing that really gets me in this thread is how unbelievably protective Patriots fans are over their team and their star QB

Most of your Superbowl victories have controversies surrounding them. Just accept it.

I didn't throw a hissy-fit when Sammy Sosa was caught with a corked bat. I'm not crying foul over his exclusion from the Hall of Fame despite his 609 homeruns. He shouldn't be in the hall, he's a cheater who used steroids and at least for a while a corked bat. I'm a huge Cubs fan but I completely accept that failure.

But oh, no, Tom Brady must be perceived as the Golden Boy of the league!

Ha!

So very pathetic

He likes his balls undersized.

so we've gone from cheating in the 2014 postseason to "Most of your Superbowl victories have controversies surrounding them. Just accept it."???

tell me what these controversies are, right now.