"Tom Brady prefer his balls to feel a certain way" - balls underinflated

[ControlD]

Where in what I wrote do you see that as being my position. You are arguing that Brady played with under-inflated balls and should have known and should have informed the league. But it seems like you missed the Physics and Chemistry class on the Ideal Gas Law.

Yes, someone did do that and that person is nature. The Wells report reached the same conclusion. It is a by product of the ideal gas laws. The PSIs in football change during the majority of the football games due to the weather. Because in the winter every player probably plays with underinflated Balls.

But you seem not to want to believe that. Maybe for your distate of Brady is shading your judgment more than you care to admit.

That is all fine and good, but it has nothing to do with the game in question. The game time temperatures were well above freezing and would not result in a 2 PSI drop. We aren't talking about all winter games here, just the AFC championship game. The Ideal Gas Law doesn't explain how the Patriot's balls were so far under the minimum.

 

[edro]

What's the deal with 3 of the 4 Colt's balls being under inflated?

 

[rudeguy]

What's the deal with 3 of the 4 Colt's balls being under inflated?

and it was cold. I'm telling you that had to have something to do with it.

 

[ControlD]

and it was cold. I'm telling you that had to have something to do with it.

It was like 50 degrees wasn't it? That isn't cold.

 

[Anubis]

It was like 50 degrees wasn't it?

wasn't it like 20F or something/? I thought it was super cold

 

[emperus]

That is all fine and good, but it has nothing to do with the game in question. The game time temperatures were well above freezing and would not result in a 2 PSI drop. We aren't talking about all winter games here, just the AFC championship game. The Ideal Gas Law doesn't explain how the Patriot's balls were so far under the minimum.

1.) So you do agree now that the Ideal Gas Law can account for some of the loss in PSI.

2.) But that leads to a bigger hole in the Wells Report, which gauge was used to do the initial Readings. One gauge had an error of .4 PSI which the Officials claimed he used. Wells inexplicably decided that's not the one that was used though. I'll just let someone else explain it. (save me typing).

The major uncertainty in the Wells Report scientific analysis lies in the pregame measurement of ball pressures: there were two gauges that differ by approximately 0.4 psi, it is not certain which was used in the pregame measurement, and the data were not recorded. If the pregame measurement of Patriots balls was made with the gauge that gives the higher number (high gauge) – as was the Official’s best recollection – then when you compare the Patriots ball pressures at halftime using the same gauge, you observe that the average Patriots ball pressure drop (1.0 psi) falls precisely in the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law (1.0 to 1.2 psi) for the temperature differences the balls were thought to experience on game day. In more detail, 8 out of 11 Patriots balls fall within that predicted range, and the three with a larger drop (by 0.1, 0.3 and 0.4 psi) can be explained by measurement error (see below). Further, if the pregame measurements for Colts balls were made with the other (low) gauge then the Colts balls dropped 0.7 psi (only 4 Colts balls were measured at halftime). The smaller drop by 0.3 psi of the Colts balls can have a scientific explanation – they were measured at halftime after the 11 Patriots balls and thus had more time to warm up and increase pressure. Is it possible that the same Official could use one gauge for the Patriots and the other for the Colts measurements? Not only is this possible but it is exactly what happened at halftime. The Wells Report describes a detailed procedure in which each Official used one gauge to measure pressures of 11 Patriots balls first then 4 Colts balls. Only on subsequent data analysis did it become evident that the gauges were inadvertently switched in between measuring the team balls. It is very easy to understand how this could happen because the gauges look almost identical. This could also have occurred for the pregame measurements because the Official who made those measurements owned both gauges and brought them to the stadium. Imagine the Official has a bunch of balls from each of two teams that he has to measure and two gauges that are almost identical, so much so that they were interchanged during the rigid protocol of recording described for halftime.

Another good take on the Physics of it.
http://drewfustin.com/deflategate/

 

[rudeguy]

It was like 50 degrees wasn't it? That isn't cold.

Yea you are probably right. I'm convinced they cheated.

 

[ControlD]

wasn't it like 20F or something/? I thought it was super cold

According to Accuweather, the temperature at kickoff was in the 50's and dropped to the upper 40's by the end of the game.

 

[ControlD]

Yea you are probably right. I'm convinced they cheated.

Yeah, they at least were running on the hairy edge. I still think the whole thing is a little silly, but after hearing the Patriot's silly explanation of things it sure seems like they were simply caught being naughty.

 

[BUTCH1]

Yea you are probably right. I'm convinced they cheated.

Well it's been proven that cold, wet , windy conditions will cause a PSI drop but I'm not sure they were deflated for that particular game or not since Well's didn't accept the Ref's explanation on which gauge he recalls using. IMHO despite being a Pat's fan I have to be objective and texts like "talked to him last night, he mentioned you and how stressful it must be getting them done" are fairly damming circumstantial evidence that tampering had been going on during the course of the season. Unbelievable that Moe, Curly,or Shemp were actually dumb enough to use team-issued phones for communication when a pre-paid phone not in your name, paid for in cash would have been the route to go if your discussing circumventing a rule. I will still think it was just to stiff a penalty for a 1/2 PSI of air though and I doubt Brady's appeal will do any good unless he has evidence that proves otherwise, but if he did why would he not make it available the first go-round?. From Brady's standpoint had he issued a statement in the beginning like " I do prefer a ball prepared a certain way with a certain feel to it, if I've violated any rules I'd like to sit down with league officials and get any issues straightened out". That would have probably resulted in a fine and a single-game suspension and it would be done with, now he's probably gonna miss 4 games, the AFC east teams have all made considerable improvements in the off-season so they could wind up missing out on the playoff's next year, all for an advantage it seems he doesn't even need. Dumb and dumber.

 

[techs]

Sorry, Kraft but I lost a lot of respect for you.

Just sitting by and losing a first round draft pick? Shame on you. It's like you want Tom to do one and done.

What I want to see is a scientific experiment of filling the balls up and then cooling them down and seeing if three NFL experienced qb's can notice the difference. I'm no physicist but taking a properly inflated ball at 72 degrees and cooling it to the 40's or 50's should cause at least some diminution of air pressure. I would like to know how much and if it is a noticeable difference.

To me that is the big missing variable in this whole issue.

 

[BUTCH1]

Sorry, Kraft but I lost a lot of respect for you.

Just sitting by and losing a first round draft pick? Shame on you. It's like you want Tom to do one and done.

What I want to see is a scientific experiment of filling the balls up and then cooling them down and seeing if three NFL experienced qb's can notice the difference. I'm no physicist but taking a properly inflated ball at 72 degrees and cooling it to the 40's or 50's should cause at least some diminution of air pressure. I would like to know how much and if it is a noticeable difference.

To me that is the big missing variable in this whole issue.

Have you been in a cave for the last 3 months?, this has been discussed, tested, and re-tested a dozen times. Read the thread for Christ's sake.

 

[emperus]

Sorry, Kraft but I lost a lot of respect for you.

Just sitting by and losing a first round draft pick? Shame on you. It's like you want Tom to do one and done.

What I want to see is a scientific experiment of filling the balls up and then cooling them down and seeing if three NFL experienced qb's can notice the difference. I'm no physicist but taking a properly inflated ball at 72 degrees and cooling it to the 40's or 50's should cause at least some diminution of air pressure. I would like to know how much and if it is a noticeable difference.

To me that is the big missing variable in this whole issue.

It has been done and when told to feel for it they all say they can. But you raise an interesting point that noone seems to talk about (because science is a hard nut to crack for most of these commentators). By the Ideal Gas Law the balls would drop below the min PSI and above the MAX PSI during games in both cold and hot weather. Yet, no QB has seemed to make a deal about it. Think about that. The balls fluctuate in temperature bringing them outside the league requirements in a lot of the games played in the NFL because of nature. And no one has ever said a peep about every other quarterback who should have equally been able to feel when those balls were below or above the limits.

 

[techs]

Have you been in a cave for the last 3 months?, this has been discussed, tested, and re-tested a dozen times. Read the thread for Christ's sake.

I have re-read the thread. Just tell me which laboratory conducted the tests, what were the criteria, which qb's did they use to determine what the jnd (just noticeable difference) was in regards to diminution of pressure.

There are many respected materials laboratories in the country. I just want to know who the NFL hired to determine that Tom Brady "should" have noticed the ball was very slighltly underinflated and which other qb's were also able to tell, or not tell.

OF course I would also like the league to tell us how many times qb's complained of the balls being underinflated, just so we can see if Brady was an aberration or if no qb's had ever complained of balls being underinflated.

Basically SHOW ME THE SCIENCE AND I WILL ACCEPT THE NFL'S DETERMINATIONS. Otherwise the league is blowing smoke out its ass is basically just trying to tear down one of the most, if not the most successful franchises in football history.

 

[emperus]

Well it's been proven that cold, wet , windy conditions will cause a PSI drop but I'm not sure they were deflated for that particular game or not since Well's didn't accept the Ref's explanation on which gauge he recalls using. IMHO despite being a Pat's fan I have to be objective and texts like "talked to him last night, he mentioned you and how stressful it must be getting them done" are fairly damming circumstantial evidence that tampering had been going on during the course of the season.

Hmm. Let me ask you if you didn't know the Pats were being investigated for deflating balls would you believe those texts were talking about deflating balls? That text could be referring to anything, but if you are doing an impartial investigation why would you assume they were talking about Deflating balls?

Furthermore, even in the series where the texts originated the balls weren't deflated. They were over inflated actually.

I just don't see the evidence. This whole thing hinges on the belief that Brady went through a lot of stress to deflate the balls by .5 PSI if you assume the worst case as Wells did that the refs didn't use the pump with the .4 PSI error. It's utterly ridiculous.

 

[BUTCH1]

I have re-read the thread. Just tell me which laboratory conducted the tests, what were the criteria, which qb's did they use to determine what the jnd (just noticeable difference) was in regards to diminution of pressure.

There are many respected materials laboratories in the country. I just want to know who the NFL hired to determine that Tom Brady "should" have noticed the ball was very slighltly underinflated and which other qb's were also able to tell, or not tell.

OF course I would also like the league to tell us how many times qb's complained of the balls being underinflated, just so we can see if Brady was an aberration or if no qb's had ever complained of balls being underinflated.

Basically SHOW ME THE SCIENCE AND I WILL ACCEPT THE NFL'S DETERMINATIONS. Otherwise the league is blowing smoke out its ass is basically just trying to tear down one of the most, if not the most successful franchises in football history.

Google "well's report" or go to ESPN, it's on there, also "wellsreportincontext.com" has yet another study of how much PSI ball's lose when moved to a cold environment. You also have to read the text exchanges between the Pat's employee's, they are kinda damming that Brady knew of the activity, it's not just "science", if it were the Well's report would have failed, the texts were what determined to use the reports findings that the Pat's were letting a small amount of air out after the Ref's had game-checked the PSI's which is illegal and a violation of rules.

 

[BUTCH1]

Hmm. Let me ask you if you didn't know the Pats were being investigated for deflating balls would you believe those texts were talking about deflating balls? That text could be referring to anything, but if you are doing an impartial investigation why would you assume they were talking about Deflating balls?

Furthermore, even in the series where the texts originated the balls weren't deflated. They were over inflated actually.

I just don't see the evidence. This whole thing hinges on the belief that Brady went through a lot of stress to deflate the balls by .5 PSI if you assume the worst case as Wells did that the refs didn't use the pump with the .4 PSI error. It's utterly ridiculous.

I do, and I'm a Pat's fan. when you read "he talked about you last night (Brady), said you must be under a lot of stress getting them done" it pretty much sums up that it was going on. Again though, the punishment was way, way, over the top for what was in the end an equipment violation. Looking at the punishment levied one would think the Pat's were found in possession of another teams playbook, totally out of sync with the violation committed.

 

[emperus]

I do, and I'm a Pat's fan. when you read "he talked about you last night (Brady), said you must be under a lot of stress getting them done" it pretty much sums up that it was going on. Again though, the punishment was way, way, over the top for what was in the end an equipment violation. Looking at the punishment levied one would think the Pat's were found in possession of another teams playbook, totally out of sync with the violation committed.

What does it sum up, and what does the text indicate was going on? Remember the text came after they found the balls at 16 PSI. Again, noone has yet explain how that is consistent with an ongoing plan to deflate balls, yet the only text we find were sent after the balls were at 16 PSI.

And how do we even know that text was referring to Brady? There are too many assumptions to be made.

 

[13Gigatons]

Yawn...can't believe the fuss over a football.

I always thought the refs where in charge of the maintenance of the ball. They always seem to clean it during the game.

 

[emperus]

Good Article on this scandal.
In trying to restore his authority through DeflateGate, Roger Goodell undermined his credibility

Some Highlights

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell predetermined guilt in DeflateGate; that’s clear now. He has smeared Tom Brady and the New England Patriots without proper evidence or a competent investigation and turned an unimportant misdemeanor into a damaging scandal as part of a personal power play to shore up his flagging authority. In other cases, he just looked inept. In this one, he looks devious.

That the league has never particularly enforced standards is evident in a hilarious section in which the Wells report eats its own tail. According to Wells, in a game between the Patriots and Jets, it was discovered that the refs had inflated the balls to 16 PSI. Brady got upset when he found them hard to handle. That’s how uneven ball inflation in the NFL is and how weak the Wells report is. The only firm evidence that Brady ever had a conversation with anyone about ball pressure comes in this instance, when the ball was wildly over-inflated to 16 PSI — by the league’s own refs.

At a minimum the Wells report is poor work, and the NFL may well have skewed it. Just consider how the report used referee Walt Anderson’s recollections. It accepts Anderson’s account as accurate when it comes to how pressurized the Patriots’ footballs were in pregame. It also accepts Anderson’s account when he said there were two gauges available, one with a logo on it that gave higher readings by almost 0.4.

But when Anderson says he used the gauge that gave the higher PSI measurements, the Wells report suddenly treats Anderson as inaccurate on this point — and no other. For no apparent reason, Wells insists Anderson must have used the other gauge, the one that gave lower readings, which makes the Patriots look guilty.

As opposed to the higher gauge, which would put it in the realm of possibility that the footballs lost pressure by halftime because of cold weather and the Ideal Gas Law.

And here again, Goodell is practicing selective punishment. Brett Favre didn’t turn his cell over, either, in a far more unpalatable case over sexual harassment in the workplace. Know what Goodell gave him? A $50,000 fine. With no suspension.

 

[rudeguy]

Has anyone checked balls that other teams were using?


Maybe its common for the balls to deflate a bit on their own?

 

[slayer202]

The problem with all the analysis is that they are basing and reviewing the information with a common sense approach, logically. Clearly the NFL doesn't operate under these same parameters.

 

[emperus]

Has anyone checked balls that other teams were using?


Maybe its common for the balls to deflate a bit on their own?

Why are you still trolling this topic? It's in this very Wells Report that ALL balls will deflate in cold weather by the Ideal Gas Law. On one gauge, 3 of the 4 Colts balls tested were under 12.5 PSI and with the other gauge they were all under their supposed initial start PSI of 13.

 

[rudeguy]

Why are you still trolling this topic? It's in this very Wells Report that ALL balls will deflate in cold weather by the Ideal Gas Law. On one gauge, 3 of the 4 Colts balls tested were under 12.5 PSI.

Easy there Captain. I'm just trying to understand things.

 

[ControlD]

Has anyone checked balls that other teams were using?


Maybe its common for the balls to deflate a bit on their own?

I think science tells us that unless the conditions remain identical to when the balls were inflated, there will be some natural pressure gain / loss during the course of a game.

All of that is irrelevant however if people were tampering with the balls which is why the Patriots are being punished (fairly or not).