"Tom Brady prefer his balls to feel a certain way" - balls underinflated

[Phoenix86]

Oh, I'm not in denial of ball-tampering or Brady lying about it but IMHO it's an equipment violation and nowhere near worthy of the harshness of the punishment meted out. If "integrity" was so important why did Minnesota get off with a verbal warning for illegally heating up balls on a cold day?, that could have as much if not more impact than dropping 1-1/2Lb of PSI out of a ball. OK, I get it, repeat offenders, slap a $200K fine on 'em and move along, but 4 game suspension?, 4 million dollars spent on this report? draft picks docked?, Mil fine? punishment not fitting the crime IMO.

Again.

The extra punishment was for the lack of cooperation, lying, and repeat offense.

While I think the head office has fucked up a metric shit ton this year with penalties AND processes, they pretty much got this one right in the end. People complaining about 4 vs 1-2 games, $1M or $200K, it's really not that far off the mark. I thought 6 games would be kosher, so people thinking 1-2 while I was thinking 6... 4 is really close to right.

edit: thinking about it a bit more, the NFL would be MUCH better doing this as line items. It would make arbitration much more difficult.

1 games for cheating.
1 game for lack of cooperation.
1 game for lying.
1 game for repeat offense.

In arbitration they would have to argue against the specific line item to reduce it. It's much easier to argue "the sum of the punishment doesn't equal the crime" than it is "he didn't lie" or "he cooperated".

You'd have more people bitching about 2 games for beating your GF and 1 for not turning in your cell phone records, but whatever.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Again.

The extra punishment was for the lack of cooperation, lying, and repeat offense.

link to an official statement saying that, please

 

[BUTCH1]

Again.

The extra punishment was for the lack of cooperation, lying, and repeat offense.

While I think the head office has fucked up a metric shit ton this year with penalties AND processes, they pretty much got this one right in the end. People complaining about 4 vs 1-2 games, $1M or $200K, it's really not that far off the mark. I thought 6 games would be kosher, so people thinking 1-2 while I was thinking 6... 4 is really close to right.

edit: thinking about it a bit more, the NFL would be MUCH better doing this as line items. It would make arbitration much more difficult.

1 games for cheating.
1 game for lack of cooperation.
1 game for lying.
1 game for repeat offense.

In arbitration they would have to argue against the specific line item to reduce it. It's much easier to argue "the sum of the punishment doesn't equal the crime" than it is "he didn't lie" or "he cooperated".

You'd have more people bitching about 2 games for beating your GF and 1 for not turning in your cell phone records, but whatever.

But equipment violations are already addressed in the rulebook as a fine of $25K or possibly higher, how that morphed into the sledgehammer it did when Minnesota was (with 100% proof) simply given a verbal warning is not correct to me.

 

[Jimzz]

link to an official statement saying that, please

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000492190/article/nfl-releases-statement-on-patriots-violations

 

[purbeast0]

why did the Pats owner do a 360 and accept the $1M fine and loss of 2 draft picks?

lol

 

[rudeguy]

This thread is just too much fun. So many people taking fanboyism to the extreme, so many people taking this so personally, so many people acting like 4th graders in a dodge ball game.

Its just football. You guys know I am a football nut but I refuse to let it be something that actually affects me emotionally. Good players and good teams usually operate on the fringes of right and wrong. You have to take every advantage you can. Sometimes you cross a line and sometimes you get caught. When that happens you man up, say you are sorry and accept your medicine. Its called sportsmanship.

The Patriots fans in this thread are showing why so many people dislike the Pats. Not because they aren't a good team, not because they don't have good players, not because of how they play. No its because like their fans, the Patriots are dicks.

 

[emperus]

Again.

The extra punishment was for the lack of cooperation, lying, and repeat offense.

While I think the head office has fucked up a metric shit ton this year with penalties AND processes, they pretty much got this one right in the end. People complaining about 4 vs 1-2 games, $1M or $200K, it's really not that far off the mark. I thought 6 games would be kosher, so people thinking 1-2 while I was thinking 6... 4 is really close to right.

edit: thinking about it a bit more, the NFL would be MUCH better doing this as line items. It would make arbitration much more difficult.

1 games for cheating.
1 game for lack of cooperation.
1 game for lying.
1 game for repeat offense.

In arbitration they would have to argue against the specific line item to reduce it. It's much easier to argue "the sum of the punishment doesn't equal the crime" than it is "he didn't lie" or "he cooperated".

You'd have more people bitching about 2 games for beating your GF and 1 for not turning in your cell phone records, but whatever.

This is the same logic the Wells Report used. Come to a conclusion and then manufacture evidence to try to support it. 6 games for 1/2 PSI deflation of a football.. Lol. Like I said, use that god given brain man.

The NFL would be better off actually ascribing penalties for rule infractions beforehand. These arbitrary emotion based rulings I'm sure doesn't sit right with most thinking people (that doesn't include you Phoenix).

 

[emperus]

This thread is just too much fun. So many people taking fanboyism to the extreme, so many people taking this so personally, so many people acting like 4th graders in a dodge ball game.

Its just football. You guys know I am a football nut but I refuse to let it be something that actually affects me emotionally. Good players and good teams usually operate on the fringes of right and wrong. You have to take every advantage you can. Sometimes you cross a line and sometimes you get caught. When that happens you man up, say you are sorry and accept your medicine. Its called sportsmanship.

The Patriots fans in this thread are showing why so many people dislike the Pats. Not because they aren't a good team, not because they don't have good players, not because of how they play. No its because like their fans, the Patriots are dicks.

I agree with your first part. I think it's ever so ridiculous that people are so aggrieved about this. Sports is a lesson in knowing how to push the boundaries. It's the same with penalties on the field or lying to a ref saying you caught a pass when you know it hit the ground.

I would also agree about accepting your medicine. The problem in this case is that it hasn't been proven the Patriots cheated. There are a lot of holes in the Wells report and flaws in Exponent's study. It's actually fascinating stuff. Exponent starts with a premise that is impossible to prove since the refs didn't take initial measurements (the balls initial pressures). And as they say garbage in, garbage out. If you haven't read the report yet, read the Patriots rebuttal first and then read the Wells report. It'll put the Wells report in perspective.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000492190/article/nfl-releases-statement-on-patriots-violations

that says

For the violation of the playing rules and the failure to cooperate in the subsequent investigation, the New England Patriots are fined $1 million and will forfeit the club's first-round selection in the 2016 NFL Draft and the club's fourth-round selection in the 2017 NFL Draft.

not

The extra punishment was for the lack of cooperation, lying, and repeat offense.

 

[ControlD]

that says


not

If you read a little further down, it says this:

"Here, there are several factors that merit strong consideration in assessing discipline. The first is the club's prior record. In 2007 the club and several individuals were sanctioned for videotaping signals of opposing defensive coaches in violation of the Constitution and Bylaws. Under the Integrity of the Game Policy, this prior violation of competitive rules was properly considered in determining the discipline in this case.

"Another important consideration identified in the Policy is 'the extent to which the club and relevant individuals cooperated with the investigation.' The Wells report identifies two significant failures in this respect. The first involves the refusal by the club's attorneys to make Mr. McNally available for an additional interview, despite numerous requests by Mr. Wells and a cautionary note in writing of the club's obligation to cooperate in the investigation. The second was the failure of Tom Brady to produce any electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information. Although we do not hold the club directly responsible for Mr. Brady's refusal to cooperate, it remains significant that the quarterback of the team failed to cooperate fully with the investigation.

"Finally, it is significant that key witnesses -- Mr. Brady, Mr. Jastremski, and Mr. McNally -- were not fully candid during the investigation.

So, pretty much repeated offenses, lying and lack of cooperation in the eyes of Troy Vincent.

 

[rudeguy]

I agree with your first part. I think it's ever so ridiculous that people are so aggrieved about this. Sports is a lesson in knowing how to push the boundaries. It's the same with penalties on the field or lying to a ref saying you caught a pass when you know it hit the ground.

I would also agree about accepting your medicine. The problem in this case is that it hasn't been proven the Patriots cheated. There are a lot of holes in the Wells report and flaws in Exponent's study. It's actually fascinating stuff. Exponent starts with a premise that is impossible to prove since the refs didn't take initial measurements (the balls initial pressures). And as they say garbage in, garbage out. If you haven't read the report yet, read the Patriots rebuttal first and then read the Wells report. It'll put the Wells report in perspective.

Its not a murder case.

No one is getting banned from the league.

Its not that serious. It doesn't matter. Hell if Brady had just said, "yea I told the ball guys I like them on the low end" it would have been the end of the story. Plausible that the weather or something made them go below limit. Instead Tom was a dick and he's getting treated like a dick.

 

[rudeguy]

that says


not

Don't worry man. The max fine is $25k. There is no way it can be any more than that.

 

[emperus]

Its not a murder case.

No one is getting banned from the league.

Its not that serious. It doesn't matter. Hell if Brady had just said, "yea I told the ball guys I like them on the low end" it would have been the end of the story. Plausible that the weather or something made them go below limit. Instead Tom was a dick and he's getting treated like a dick.

1.) Yes, we are aware it's not a murder case, but are you saying that it is ok for someone to take away your livelihood and pay and damage your reputation without any real evidence you did something to merit it? I just find the positions people are taking on this issue rather hilarious.

2.) It is not only plausible that weather made them go beyond 12.5 PSI it has been proven that weather made them go beyond PSI by the Wells Report. The argument is how much below 12.5 the weather caused them to go. Btw 3 of the 4 tested Colts balls were also under the lower limit. I'm not sure why you keep repeating this point as if you haven't been paying attention to this story.

3.) It seems like you're assuming that Tom cheated and thus everything he does is him just being a dick. If he didn't cheat would his attempt at clearing his name still be a dick move? Maybe you should change your underlying bias that he cheated and try to see the story from a more even keeled perspective.

 

[rudeguy]

1.) Yes, we are aware it's not a murder case, but are you saying that it is ok for someone to take away your livelihood and pay and damage your reputation without any real evidence you did something to merit it? I just find the positions people are taking on this issue rather hilarious.

2.) It is not only plausible that weather made them go beyond 12.5 PSI it has been proven that weather made them go beyond PSI by the Wells Report. The argument is how much below 12.5 the weather caused them to go. Btw 3 of the 4 tested Colts balls were also under the lower limit. I'm not sure why you keep repeating this point as if you haven't been paying attention to this story.

3.) It seems like you're assuming that Tom cheated and thus everything he does is him just being a dick. If he didn't cheat would his attempt at clearing his name still be a dick move? Maybe you should change your underlying bias that he cheated and try to see the story from a more even keeled perspective.

Oh no. I've known Brady was a dick since he was at U of M.

Its no secret that I do not like the guy. I have zero respect for him. If they banned him for life I would be very pleased.

But if this were PFM or Luck or any other QB, I'd be saying the same thing. You either cheated or you played fast and loose with the rules. You have to take your medicine for that.

 

[Phoenix86]

link to an official statement saying that, please

I'm kind of shocked you are asking this question, at this point.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...iots-punished-in-part-for-lack-of-cooperation

From Troy Vincent's letter to the Patriots:

"Here, there are several factors that merit strong consideration in assessing discipline. The first is the club's prior record. In 2007 the club and several individuals were sanctioned for videotaping signals of opposing defensive coaches in violation of the Constitution and Bylaws. Under the Integrity of the Game Policy, this prior violation of competitive rules was properly considered in determining the discipline in this case.

"Another important consideration identified in the Policy is 'the extent to which the club and relevant individuals cooperated with the investigation.' The Wells report identifies two significant failures in this respect. The first involves the refusal by the club's attorneys to make Mr. McNally available for an additional interview, despite numerous requests by Mr. Wells and a cautionary note in writing of the club's obligation to cooperate in the investigation. The second was the failure of Tom Brady to produce any electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information. Although we do not hold the club directly responsible for Mr. Brady's refusal to cooperate, it remains significant that the quarterback of the team failed to cooperate fully with the investigation.

"Finally, it is significant that key witnesses -- Mr. Brady, Mr. Jastremski, and Mr. McNally -- were not fully candid during the investigation."

Bold1: Repeat offense.
Bold2: Lack of cooperation.
Bold3: Lying.

 

[Phoenix86]

This thread is just too much fun. So many people taking fanboyism to the extreme, so many people taking this so personally, so many people acting like 4th graders in a dodge ball game.

It is, you just don't see this much cognitive dissonance with so many people at the same time. Well, outside religion.

 

[Phoenix86]

The NFL would be better off actually ascribing penalties for rule infractions beforehand. These arbitrary emotion based rulings I'm sure doesn't sit right with most thinking people (that doesn't include you Phoenix).

A broken clock is right twice a day. 90% of the issue the front office is facing is when Goodell shoots from the hip. He's simply not following a reasonable guideline at all.

I don't disagree with things you say because you're saying them, I disagree because most the things your saying completely disregard facts. Take a look at my sig. It's a wonderful quote.

You're not ignorant though, you're intentionally ignorant.

 

[rudeguy]

It is, you just don't see this much cognitive dissonance with so many people at the same time. Well, outside religion.

and DNC meetings :awe:

 

[emperus]

But if this were PFM or Luck or any other QB, I'd be saying the same thing. You either cheated or you played fast and loose with the rules. You have to take your medicine for that.

Ok fair enough. So, then let me ask you, what evidence compelled you to believe he played fast and loose with the rules?

 

[rudeguy]

Ok fair enough. So, then let me ask you, what evidence compelled you to believe he played fast and loose with the rules?

He played (at least) a whole game with under inflated balls and didn't let an official know.

 

[emperus]

A broken clock is right twice a day. 90% of the issue the front office is facing is when Goodell shoots from the hip. He's simply not following a reasonable guideline at all.

I don't disagree with things you say because you're saying them, I disagree because most the things your saying completely disregard facts. Take a look at my sig. It's a wonderful quote.

You're not ignorant though, you're intentionally ignorant.

I don't think anything you've posted here is based on facts. I've read through the reports both of them. Then spent last week reading analysis on the report, then followed that up by frequenting Technical discussions where the report was being discussed (Yes, I am a nerd) to make sure I didn't have a Pats bias. And everything I read backs up my initial perspective that the report derived a conclusion it set out to prove.

And further to prove my point, I asked a question a couple of posts above that you still haven't answered. Why is that? Again, if the Pats had a process for deflating the balls, why were the PAts balls at 16 PSI during the 10/14 Jets game. You'll probably ignore it this time as well.

And I am not saying that the Patriots didn't or couldn't have cheated. What I am saying is that there is nothing that I have seen that is compelling enough to warrant any sort of discipline. That should have been the conclusion of any unbiased Wells report.

 

[emperus]

He played (at least) a whole game with under inflated balls and didn't let an official know.

Ok.

1.) You are aware that in any game played outside in the winder. Both teams balls will most likely be under-inflated (<12.5 PSI). (In the AFC title game the Pats tested balls and 3 of the 4 of the Colts tested balls were under-inflated on at least one gauge) And in any game played in high temperatures, both teams balls would probably be over-inflated (>13.5 PSI)

2.) Having said that, it could equally be asked, why Andrew Luck didn't report that he was playing with under-inflated balls.

 

[rudeguy]

Ok.

1.) You are aware that in any game played outside in the winder. Both teams balls will most likely be under-inflated (<12.5 PSI). (In the AFC title game the Pats tested balls and 3 of the 4 of the Colts tested balls were under-inflated on at least one gauge) And in any game played in high temperatures, both teams balls would probably be over-inflated (>13.5 PSI)

2.) Having said that, it could equally be asked, why Andrew Luck didn't report that he was playing with under-inflated balls.

and this is where the whole Pat's defense always falls back:

Somebody else did it too! Its a 3rd grade argument.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

and this is where the whole Pat's defense always falls back:

Somebody else did it too! Its a 3rd grade argument.

it's where everyone falls back, you nincompoop.

"it doesn't matter what anyone else did or is doing. this is about you"

the problem is selective enforcement of poorly structured rules. it's become obvious that ball pressure in the nfl was a free-for-all among all teams, so why is 1 team singled out (with assistance from a rival that was found to be committing the same offense at the same time, without punishment)?

the problem is with the league, but the league wants nothing to do with mea culpa.

 

[emperus]

and this is where the whole Pat's defense always falls back:

Somebody else did it too! Its a 3rd grade argument.

Where in what I wrote do you see that as being my position. You are arguing that Brady played with under-inflated balls and should have known and should have informed the league. But it seems like you missed the Physics and Chemistry class on the Ideal Gas Law.

Yes, someone did do that and that person is nature. The Wells report reached the same conclusion. It is a by product of the ideal gas laws. The PSIs in football change during the majority of the football games due to the weather. Because in the winter every player probably plays with underinflated Balls.

But you seem not to want to believe that. Maybe for your distate of Brady is shading your judgment more than you care to admit.