Toddler kills his mother

[Matt1970]

No reason why that baby had to die besides misplaced machismo from guys who need a gun to feel powerful.



Maybe I am a child but at least I'm not a pussy like you guys. I'm not afraid to walk around LBC unarmed, not sure why anybody would be but I guess I should ask somebody with a tiny dick...


SO Gerle why are you so afraid to walk around lily-white no crime Ft. Worth without a giant codpiece and rifle?

Read this really slow so you understand. Maybe caps will help too. THE BABY DIDN'T DIE, THE MOM DID.

 

[Gerle]

No reason why that baby had to die besides misplaced machismo from guys who need a gun to feel powerful.

What baby? The 29 year old mother?

Maybe I am a child but at least I'm not a pussy like you guys. I'm not afraid to walk around LBC unarmed, not sure why anybody would be but I guess I should ask somebody with a tiny dick...

What's with the name calling? I'm glad you are not afraid walking around your town, no one should have to be. Let's leave the tiny dick part alone, guy.

SO Gerle why are you so afraid to walk around lily-white no crime Ft. Worth without a giant codpiece and rifle?

AND TreVader, when was the last time we met? What do you know about me? While we are on the subject of knowing, let's compare:

Long Beach
White non Hispanic 30%
Black 13%
Asian 13%
Hispanic 41%
Below the federal poverty line 20%

Fort Worth
White non Hispanic 42%
Black 19%
Asian 4%
Hispanic 34%
Below the federal poverty line 16%

So there are more Asians in your town, good deal.

Btw, my "Child..." comment was referring to your continued reference to a child having been killed, I wasn't referring to you as a child. Re-read and you'll see.

 

[TreVader]

Mixed the mom and baby up, point is what good did that gun do that woman?

You people advocate for every single person owning a gun, right? Or at least most? Well, a lot of people are stupid, clumsy, or otherwise irresponsible and this is what happens when they carry guns.

We limit the age and test people to drive cars because they are dangerous. There needs to be limits on gun ownership too.

Btw, my "Child..." comment was referring to your continued reference to a child having been killed, I wasn't referring to you as a child. Re-read and you'll see.

Edit: ok I see I thought you wanted to play the dozens so I insulted you my bad

 

[Gerle]

Mixed the mom and baby up, point is what good did that gun do that woman?

Unfortunately it didn't do her any good, at all. If it had been in a proper holster this would not have happened.

You people advocate for every single person owning a gun, right? Or at least most? Well, a lot of people are stupid, clumsy, or otherwise irresponsible and this is what happens when they carry guns.

You people? Anyway, No I don't advocate for all or most owning a gun, but they should be able to if they feel up to it.

We limit the age and test people to drive cars because they are dangerous. There needs to be limits on gun ownership too.

There are lots of limitations on gun ownership, they vary by state and country. Some locations require classes and testing, some don't. Some disqualifiers could be young age, felonies, domestic violence issues, mental issues, a range of things. Do you know anything about this or do you react based on emotions? I mean that in the best of ways, this issue always seem to bring about strong emotions in us, regardless of how well read we are on the subject, or how comfortable we are with weapons.

 

[TreVader]

Unfortunately it didn't do her any good, at all. If it had been in a proper holster this would not have happened.

You people? Anyway, No I don't advocate for all or most owning a gun, but they should be able to if they feel up to it.

There are lots of limitations on gun ownership, they vary by state and country. Some locations require classes and testing, some don't. Some disqualifiers could be young age, felonies, domestic violence issues, mental issues, a range of things. Do you know anything about this or do you react based on emotions?

I know a fair amount about the limits of gun ownership or lack there of, as far as I know there are zero states that require anybody to take any sort of class before owning a gun. Maybe for CCW but even that is a joke, and some states will issue a CCW if you request it, period.

The state I live in has some of the strictest gun laws yet anybody over 18 can get a gun after 7 days wait. And you can still transfer ownership from private seller in seconds. There are loopholes everywhere, and if you own a gun you should know that.

 

[Gerle]

I know a fair amount about the limits of gun ownership or lack there of, as far as I know there are zero states that require anybody to take any sort of class before owning a gun. Maybe for CCW but even that is a joke, and some states will issue a CCW if you request it, period.

The state I live in has some of the strictest gun laws yet anybody over 18 can get a gun after 7 days wait. And you can still transfer ownership from private seller in seconds. There are loopholes everywhere, and if you own a gun you should know that.

I too know a bit about California's gun laws, I recently left California for Texas. Before that I lived in Arizona, Florida, Japan and Sweden, and am familiar with the laws in all of those places.

Here's some information from the State of California Department of Justice
Office of the Attorney General http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs
it seems to differ from what you are claiming? Note the 10 days and the handgun safety certificate, the age being 21 for handguns with 18 for long guns and shotguns, as well as the private party transfer.

1. What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?
   • Generally, all firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer’s Record of Sale (DROS) process. California law imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a purchaser or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To purchase a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age. As part of the DROS process, the purchaser must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.
     If the purchaser is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing the firearms dealer with documentation containing his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.
     Purchasers of handguns must provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification), and either (1) possess a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with their recently purchased handgun or (2) qualify for an HSC exemption.
     (Pen. Code, § § 26800-26850.)

Can I sell a gun directly to another person (i.e. non-dealer)? Generally, no. This type of transaction is referred to as a “private party transfer” and must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The purchaser (and seller if the purchaser is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements.

 

[BoberFett]

LOL. TreVader. What he lacks in knowledge and intelligence, he attempts to make up for in pulling things out of his ass.

 

[TreVader]

That's a lot of text to basically say what I said. 10 days, vs the 7 I originally quoted is the only practical difference between that wall of text and what I stated, at least for shotguns and rifles.

Also convenient you didn't quote anything from the "transfer" part of that document. Here's a little snippet

" The transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. "

Is that a huge, massive loophole I see there? How many people will sell a gun to a relative that is mentally ill? Or to a child, which as stated is TOTALLY LEGAL?


Do you even read the stuff you quote?

 

[TreVader]

The gun laws in general are written to APPEAR to be restrictive. They are all compromises with the NRA and therefore never truly limit a persons ability to own or use a firearm. There are loopholes for EVERYTHING!



Even the rule in CA that you can't own a gun after being in a mental institution only comes into play if you stay more than 7 days. You can totally go to the loony bin for 5 days, even multiple times, and get a firearm the next month!

This is the kind of BS law you get when you compromise with the NRA on everything. And this is in CA, where the NRA has the least amount of power. In texas you can do anything you want more or less. I think it's a misdemeanor to shoot your gun in your vehicle as long as it doesnt hit anything!

 

[Gerle]

That's a lot of text to basically say what I said. 10 days, vs the 7 I originally quoted is the only practical difference between that wall of text and what I stated, at least for shotguns and rifles.

Also convenient you didn't quote anything from the "transfer" part of that document. Here's a little snippet



Is that a huge, massive loophole I see there? How many people will sell a gun to a relative that is mentally ill? Or to a child, which as stated is TOTALLY LEGAL?


Do you even read the stuff you quote?

I've read it several times over the years. Child in this case refers to ADULT child, a grandchild still needs to be legally able to own whatever is being transferred, as evidenced by "Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later? Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category, pdf and the firearm is legal to possess (e.g., not an assault weapon)." No massive loophole. Selling or giving a gun to prohibited persons is not allowed, I fail to see the loophole you are referring to? Re-read and come back once you truly get it, I think you are a little eager to jump to conclusions. It seems you got a little excited there, you thought you were on to something.

 

[TreVader]

I've read it several times over the years. Child in this case refers to ADULT child, a grandchild still needs to be legally able to own whatever is being transferred, as evidenced by "Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later? Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category, pdf and the firearm is legal to possess (e.g., not an assault weapon)." No massive loophole. Selling or giving a gun to prohibited persons is not allowed, I fail to see the loophole you are referring to? Re-read and come back once you truly get it, I think you are a little eager to jump to conclusions. It seems you got a little excited there, you thought you were on to something.

This article does an OK job of showing some of the ways people get around gun laws in CA.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/20090923_gun_study/index.html

UC Davis report exposes loopholes in gun-control laws

Gun shows and the lack of uniform gun-control laws provide easy access to guns that can be used for criminal purposes, according to a new report from the UC Davis Violence Prevention Research Program.

Entitled "Inside Gun Shows: What Goes on When Everybody Thinks Nobody’s Watching," the comprehensive, 300-page report provides a “you are there” exposure to the issue based on direct observations made at 78 gun shows in 19 states, most of them between 2005 and 2008.

The report features hundreds of photographs and some video that show:

- illegal straw purchases, whereby a surrogate buys from a licensed retailer on behalf of another
- anonymous, undocumented private-party gun sales
- widespread availability of assault weapons, .50-caliber rifles and the parts needed to make untraceable guns
- links between gun shows and the neo-Confederacy movement and neo-Nazism

Illegal transactions
Illegal transactions were often conducted entirely out in the open,” said Garen Wintemute, professor of emergency medicine at UC Davis School of Medicine and a leading researcher on firearm violence who authored the report. “The sense of impunity among sellers and purchasers in these cases was remarkable.”

While enforcement programs and regulatory policies are in effect in some states, Wintemute says more needs to be done to prevent both unregulated gun sales and illegal gun sales at gun shows and elsewhere.

Executive Summary © Garen Wintemute, M.D.
Executive summary. Click here for more photographs, videos and report.
“Law enforcement needs to have an expanded, proactive program at gun shows to prevent the illegal sale of guns,” said Wintemute. “We also need to update existing laws so that all private-party gun sales, not just those at gun shows, are subject to the same safeguards now in place for gun purchases from licensed dealers.”

Current laws

Current laws require licensed retailers to see a buyer’s identification and require buyers to complete a lengthy Firearms Transaction Record, which certifies that buyers are purchasing a gun for themselves and that they are not prohibited from owning a gun. Licensed retailers also must submit this information for a background check and keep a record of the purchase. Unlicensed vendors or individual attendees at gun shows, however, are not required to follow these same federal safeguards.

“Undocumented private party gun sale transactions account for as many as 40 percent of all gun sales,” said Wintemute. “They are quick and convenient, and their anonymity attracts those who put privacy at a premium. These same attributes make private-party gun sales a principal option for a felon or other prohibited person.”

Gun shows are a leading source of guns used in criminal violence in Northern California, the United States, Mexico and Canada. Legislation to regulate gun shows has been introduced in Congress, and stepped-up enforcement operations are under way. Nonetheless, it has been suggested that efforts to prevent gun violence should focus elsewhere.

This research was funded with a grant from the Eli and Edythe L. Broad Foundation, the Joyce Foundation and the California Wellness Foundation.

 

[Gerle]

Even the rule in CA that you can't own a gun after being in a mental institution only comes into play if you stay more than 7 days. You can totally go to the loony bin for 5 days, even multiple times, and get a firearm the next month!

No. That all depends, was it voluntary? If involuntarily held under Section 5150 it is for three days, and the ban is for 5 years after.

Ooops, you were wrong, again.

 

[Gerle]

You quoted “Undocumented private party gun sale transactions account for as many as 40 percent of all gun sales,” said Wintemute. “They are quick and convenient, and their anonymity attracts those who put privacy at a premium. These same attributes make private-party gun sales a principal option for a felon or other prohibited person.” These people aren't allowed to possess weapons, so again, no loophole. The laws in place already address this, and if some asshole sells a gun to a felon they should share a prison cell with them. The private party gun sale you are talking about is one criminal selling a gun to another criminal, not normal people.

You mentioned laws regarding cars and driving earlier, are there ways people get around licensing and insurance requirements in California, perhaps even outright acquiring vehicles by alternate means from time to time? Does that elicit the same emotional response from you?

 

[TreVader]

No. That all depends, was it voluntary? If involuntarily held under Section 5150 it is for three days, and the ban is for 5 years after.

Ooops, you were wrong, again.

Check again. Thats only for CA law. You can be 5150'd multiple times and not lose your right to own a gun.

If someone has been placed on a 14-day hold (5250), they are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms under California law, and for life under federal law. (California Welfare and Institutions Code, sections 8100 - 8108)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(involuntary_psychiatric_hold)

If someone is placed on a 72-hour hold (also known as a “5150”) as a danger to themselves or others and admitted to a facility for treatment, they are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms for five years from the date of admission to the facility. (California Welfare and Institutions Code, sections 8100 - 8108)

 

[TreVader]

You quoted “Undocumented private party gun sale transactions account for as many as 40 percent of all gun sales,” said Wintemute. “They are quick and convenient, and their anonymity attracts those who put privacy at a premium. These same attributes make private-party gun sales a principal option for a felon or other prohibited person.” These people aren't allowed to possess weapons, so again, no loophole. The laws in place already address this, and if some asshole sells a gun to a felon they should share a prison cell with them. The private party gun sale you are talking about is one criminal selling a gun to another criminal, not normal people.

You mentioned laws regarding cars and driving earlier, are there ways people get around licensing and insurance requirements in California, perhaps even outright acquiring vehicles by alternate means from time to time? Does that elicit the same emotional response from you?

So you expect "prohibited persons" to not use loopholes? If these guns were not easily available to buy in clandestine gun shows would it be harder for "prohibited persons" to get them?


Creating an environment where by default people are allowed to operate extremely dangerous machines with no license or training is stupid.


And you are only talking about CA! I will dig up some sweet gun laws from Texas or Alabama and we'll see how restrictive they are!

 

[Gerle]

Check again. Thats only for CA law. You can be 5150'd multiple times and not lose your right to own a gun.

The three days I posted refer to the time the person is being held, which is less than the seven you claimed. So you were wrong, again. The 5150 five year ban would only be effective in California, I guess that individual could always move to another state if they wanted to get around the provisions, since the ban is not a federal five year ban. Who has been held multiple times under Section 5150 and not lost their gun owning rights? I know they can be restored prior to the five years passing, but that takes a 8103 hearing.

Section 5150 only relating to California is hardly surprising is it, as it is a part California Welfare and Institutions Code.

 

[Gerle]

So you expect "prohibited persons" to not use loopholes? If these guns were not easily available to buy in clandestine gun shows would it be harder for "prohibited persons" to get them?

Clandestine? Loopholes? There are no loopholes, if you aren't allowed to own guns you aren't allowed to own guns, is that hard to understand? People aren't allowed to use certain drugs, rape people, or commit any number of crimes, but they do, and no one talks about loopholes. These loopholes you refer to are non-existent, prohibited persons can't have guns, period.

Creating an environment where by default people are allowed to operate extremely dangerous machines with no license or training is stupid.

Again, this is not the case in California, which you were the one to bring up by claiming to be familiar with the laws there. Handgun safety certificate, remember?

And you are only talking about CA! I will dig up some sweet gun laws from Texas or Alabama and we'll see how restrictive they are!

Come on, bring up some examples then. Again, prohibited persons can't have guns here either. Look up how to concealed carry in Texas and tell me the number of training hours required, and what kind of background checks are performed.

 

[WackyDan]

I know a fair amount about the limits of gun ownership or lack there of, as far as I know there are zero states that require anybody to take any sort of class before owning a gun. Maybe for CCW but even that is a joke, and some states will issue a CCW if you request it, period.

The state I live in has some of the strictest gun laws yet anybody over 18 can get a gun after 7 days wait. And you can still transfer ownership from private seller in seconds. There are loopholes everywhere, and if you own a gun you should know that.

Then you don't know shit about guns laws in this country. Try buying a handgun in NYS - Then come back here and tell us how easy it was to do so without getting mandatory training, and then applying for the permit to even own one... No CCW... Just a permit to own - CCW is only if you are lucky and live in a county with a shall issue judge.

 

[WackyDan]

The gun laws in general are written to APPEAR to be restrictive. They are all compromises with the NRA and therefore never truly limit a persons ability to own or use a firearm. There are loopholes for EVERYTHING!



Even the rule in CA that you can't own a gun after being in a mental institution only comes into play if you stay more than 7 days. You can totally go to the loony bin for 5 days, even multiple times, and get a firearm the next month!

This is the kind of BS law you get when you compromise with the NRA on everything. And this is in CA, where the NRA has the least amount of power. In texas you can do anything you want more or less. I think it's a misdemeanor to shoot your gun in your vehicle as long as it doesnt hit anything!

Don't blame the NRA. They have come out in favor of shared records to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally unstable.

Blame the ACLU, etc... Who would probably argue that 5 days in the loony bin should not mark a person for life. We are a nation of 2nd chances... third chances, 4th chances...etc. Just look at the drunk driving penalties and tell me that isn't the case.

 

[Thebobo]

Don't blame the NRA. They have come out in favor of shared records to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally unstable.

Blame the ACLU, etc... Who would probably argue that 5 days in the loony bin should not mark a person for life. We are a nation of 2nd chances... third chances, 4th chances...etc. Just look at the drunk driving penalties and tell me that isn't the case.

How would they do just that? By background checks!
Which the NRA is against.

 

[Subyman]

I don't think grand-pap's gun is the issue here.

 

[highland145]

tldr;

 

[Kadarin]

This woman carried a loaded firearm in such a way that a toddler was able to fire it, so I really don't have a whole lot of sympathy here. I'm generally in favor of concealed carry, but proper holsters should be used, and extra care must be taken when children are involved.

The right to own and carry firearms brings with it the very serious responsibility of making safety the number one priority. This woman failed on several counts here, and paid the price for it.

 

[highland145]

This woman carried a loaded firearm in such a way that a toddler was able to fire it, so I really don't have a whole lot of sympathy here. I'm generally in favor of concealed carry, but proper holsters should be used, and extra care must be taken when children are involved.

The right to own and carry firearms brings with it the very serious responsibility of making safety the number one priority. This woman failed on several counts here, and paid the price for it.

/thread

 

[Vic]

Accidents happen.

Take out gun from your post, and replace it with car.

-John

And if she had let her 2 year old take control of the car, most people would have considered that irresponsible as well.