To hell with HL2... Farcry is here!!!

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Insomniak

Banned
Sep 11, 2003
4,836
0
0
Originally posted by: VIAN
Extensive story line as opposed to others. Story is better understood through gameplay.


Why the hell do people keep saying this? Guys, Half-Life's story was no better than any other shooter's. Let's compare:

Doom:
Scientific Experiment goes awry and you have to kill aliens.

Quake 2:
Aliens attack and you have to kill aliens.

Unreal:
You crash on an alien planet and have to kill aliens.

Half-Life:
See Doom, + the military/government tries to cover it up.


The only, and I mean ONLY first person shooter I've ever played with a very deep story is Deus Ex. The rest of them, it's just an excuse to shoot things.

Now, don't get me wrong - I had loads of fun playing Half Life and I look forward to Half Life 2 with great anticipation, but stop saying the friggin game had a great story - it didn't. Movies like Pulp Fiction and Snatch, books like Mystic River and The Great Train Robbery - that's great story telling. Half Life was not.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
I guess I should try Deus Ex, huh? I got it for free on the January CGW DVD... I think I even have it installed still. I went through the "training" in the game and wasn't too impressed, but maybe I need to get involved in the story?

BTW... after reading the 2nd page... you all are nuts.
 

g3pro

Senior member
Jan 15, 2004
404
0
0
Originally posted by: Insomniak
Originally posted by: VIAN
Extensive story line as opposed to others. Story is better understood through gameplay.


Why the hell do people keep saying this? Guys, Half-Life's story was no better than any other shooter's. Let's compare:

Doom:
Scientific Experiment goes awry and you have to kill aliens.

Quake 2:
Aliens attack and you have to kill aliens.

Unreal:
You crash on an alien planet and have to kill aliens.

Half-Life:
See Doom, + the military/government tries to cover it up.


The only, and I mean ONLY first person shooter I've ever played with a very deep story is Deus Ex. The rest of them, it's just an excuse to shoot things.

Now, don't get me wrong - I had loads of fun playing Half Life and I look forward to Half Life 2 with great anticipation, but stop saying the friggin game had a great story - it didn't. Movies like Pulp Fiction and Snatch, books like Mystic River and The Great Train Robbery - that's great story telling. Half Life was not.


exactly, man. i think HL's popularity has nothing to do with the story or the gameplay. i think it has to do with the persona you take in the game: a nerd/scientist with a gun who kills a bunch of things.

i'm so sick of this HL fanboyness.

has anyone seen the exlusive HL2 gameplay footage/source engine footage from FilePlanet.com? the HL fanboys in the room were having orgasms when they were seeing the physics... they think they are so damn cool because they enjoy HL (because of the nerd-persona), and then they get to see physics. PHYSICS!!! oooooh ooooohhhhh!!! (smack smack smack smack) mmmmmmmm.

oh wait, time for another orgasm! DX9 feature-set! DX9 FEATURE-SET!!! ooooooohhhhh! (smack smack smack) mmmmmmmm...



HL2 uses a DX9 graphics set and a physics engine. whoop-dee-doo. it's the same nerd-based story-line with a nice wrapper. wow. i'm having orgasms over THAT!
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
 

g3pro

Senior member
Jan 15, 2004
404
0
0
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
but imo it was simply an evolutionary step for the fps genre. it took what was already there and extended it; it didn't redefine the genre.

I'll give why I thought it was revolutionary-

'Atmosphere'- and this was the biggest area. Games prior to HL had maybe something resembling a story to give you a reason for blowing everything up, HL took it much further and made you entire gaming experience directly tied in to the storyline of the game. The way in which they did this was brilliant. Instead of running in to someone who throws all the answers at you, or reading/listening to some narrative, you are simply thrown in the middle of it and have to try to piece together what the hell is going on. There is no instance in HL where you ask yourself- 'Why am I fighting this guy/thing'? Also NPCs but I'll cover them seperately.

AI- It had it, nothing before it really did. Prior to HL there was 'aware' and 'unaware' AI, they may get complicated enough to try and dodge once in a while, but nothing was like the quantum leap going from titles that came before it to facing the Marines the first time. Then to shock you a bit, you reload after they wipe the floor with you and they don't do the same thing. HL's AI was the first to make you think. Sure, it has certainly progressed far since then, but nothing around prior to it was close.

Useful NPCs- HL's addition of NPCs not just to relay information, but to aid you in your quest through both completing certain tasks for you and actively participating in combat. Picking up a 'Barney' for the first time and having him lay down cover fire for you, and then seeing him getting whacked because you didn't return the favor? Elements like that helped pull people into the game.

Three(four) way- It used to be you versus everything that moved. Half-Life introduced the concept of your enemies having their own enemies. When stumbling upon a firefight between aliens and Marines I would regularly sit back, firing occasionaly to help even the odds, and wait until they were done to go finish them off. Then you had the 'black ops' and it still isn't clear if they are 'good' or 'bad', actually, outside of the aliens it really isn't clear who was 'good' or 'bad' throughout the game. Half-Life wasn't black and white, there were motives behind what each element was doing, and how you viewed those motives depends on how 'good' or 'bad' the other scripts in the game came across to you.

i just realized something: you're talking about Quake without NPCs. :Q quake came out before HL, you know that, right?

so it comes down to: NPCs. i knew it!!! :D
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
You mean people want to argue on the strengths of Half-Life :D

Why the hell do people keep saying this? Guys, Half-Life's story was no better than any other shooter's.

You are making the horrendous assertion that the premise equals the totality of the experience. I can point you to thousands of dime store novels about fantasy lore people and creatures making a quest against evil, that certainly doesn't make them comparable to JRR. It was in the execution of the general plot line, how things were revealed to you, the pacing in which things were revealed and the fact that some things never were revealed. Boil it down and DeusEX was another lame @ss conspiracy story, a rip off of Metal Gear. Half-Life was the first shooter we saw that utilized proper scripting and methods for unfolding a story.

It's the difference between the same old 'man trying to take over the world' storyline and Citizen Kane. Or you could talk about the tired adventure story about the Napoleanic wars, War&Peace. For one of the movies you bring up- a bunch of guys fighting over a briefcase, now that's weak. Sorry man, if you want to critique it you are going to have to bring it to an entirely different level then what you have so far. A lousy premise executed brilliantly will pretty much always obliterate an incredible premise executed horribly.

i just realized something: you're talking about Quake without NPCs.

Quake had visuals/engine going for it, and Reznor's chilling score, but that's about it in terms of major progressions. Now, the leap to 3D shouldn't be marginalized, but it wasn't exploited in a fashion that made it significantly different then DooM. Hell mouse look was off by default. I don't see how you can compare Quake to Half-Life.
 

g3pro

Senior member
Jan 15, 2004
404
0
0
i have no idea how you dare to compare HL to quake. HL is in its own area, and has a (supposedly) good story and good scripting and good NPCs.

considering that HL wouldn't exist without Quake 1, i don't know how you could even dare to compare the two. quake revolutionized the first person shooter. doom revolutionized the first person shooter.

HL was evolutionary. get over it. i'm sure you really like the game, but there is nothing in it besides the above mentioned features. just like HL2 is not going to be special. it's just DX9 features and physics (with the 'fantastic, orgasmic' story line that you're talking about).



if you haven't been in the know with the d3 engine, you're going to shite your pants when you see it.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I felt the story line for HL was cool but the way they put it together was awesome. I remember when I first started playing it I felt like it was a movie and I was the lead role.

I also enjoyed how they presented you with puzzles and you had to solve them in order to get around this obstacle. That is something you rarely see in a fps. Most fps single player is pretty mindless blowing shat up. But HL has quite a bit more under the hood if you were willing to look.

On top of that Valves relationships with the 3rd party mods really solidified HL as a premiere brand name. To this day I still play Day of Defeat. It was released for retail about a year ago(or is is 2 years now?) but it started as a mod by some kids in college.

I look forward to HL2 for something like HL in terms of gameplay. But I am looking very forward to the 3rd party mods we will see in the 12-18 months after the games release. I am just creaming thinking about what Day of Defeat could look like on that engine :)
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
Originally posted by: g3pro
Originally posted by: Insomniak
Originally posted by: VIAN
Extensive story line as opposed to others. Story is better understood through gameplay.


Why the hell do people keep saying this? Guys, Half-Life's story was no better than any other shooter's. Let's compare:

Doom:
Scientific Experiment goes awry and you have to kill aliens.

Quake 2:
Aliens attack and you have to kill aliens.

Unreal:
You crash on an alien planet and have to kill aliens.

Half-Life:
See Doom, + the military/government tries to cover it up.


The only, and I mean ONLY first person shooter I've ever played with a very deep story is Deus Ex. The rest of them, it's just an excuse to shoot things.

Now, don't get me wrong - I had loads of fun playing Half Life and I look forward to Half Life 2 with great anticipation, but stop saying the friggin game had a great story - it didn't. Movies like Pulp Fiction and Snatch, books like Mystic River and The Great Train Robbery - that's great story telling. Half Life was not.


exactly, man. i think HL's popularity has nothing to do with the story or the gameplay. i think it has to do with the persona you take in the game: a nerd/scientist with a gun who kills a bunch of things.

i'm so sick of this HL fanboyness.

has anyone seen the exlusive HL2 gameplay footage/source engine footage from FilePlanet.com? the HL fanboys in the room were having orgasms when they were seeing the physics... they think they are so damn cool because they enjoy HL (because of the nerd-persona), and then they get to see physics. PHYSICS!!! oooooh ooooohhhhh!!! (smack smack smack smack) mmmmmmmm.

oh wait, time for another orgasm! DX9 feature-set! DX9 FEATURE-SET!!! ooooooohhhhh! (smack smack smack) mmmmmmmm...



HL2 uses a DX9 graphics set and a physics engine. whoop-dee-doo. it's the same nerd-based story-line with a nice wrapper. wow. i'm having orgasms over THAT!
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif

Heh, too bad vavle lied and it was mostly scripted. :p
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
I've played many games and HL offers a unique experience. It's not a mindless game like Serious Sam. I fell asleep playing the multiplayer. I could never beat the single player. The game was just too boring. Nice graphics and ideas, but no story that is actually interesting and none of the story progresses through the levels. There was almost no atmosphere whatso ever - everyone you encountered needed to be killed. If FPS were like that prior to HL, then HL is more than a revolution.
 

Insomniak

Banned
Sep 11, 2003
4,836
0
0
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker


It was in the execution of the general plot line, how things were revealed to you, the pacing in which things were revealed and the fact that some things never were revealed.

I'm still trying to figure out...what fucking plot line? You mess up an experiment. Aliens show up. You have to survive. The military shows up to. You survive more. You get transported to another world. You kill the boss alien. The end is left open for sequel.

Deus Ex does it correctly. You start out with a job to do and a view of who is good/bad. Then things change - turns out you've been working for the bad guys? Are you really working for the good guys now, or is it a triple cross? Who do you trust? What objectives do you complete? The game makes you decide, it doesn't do it for you....and you talk about things not being revealed...and pacing...hoo boy...no question.

This is not to say Half Life is bad - it was great - I'm just saying it's story was nothing special.

As for Snatch - if you thought that movie was about a bunch of guys fighting over a briefcase, you missed the entire point of the movie. It doesn't really matter anyway, in that if you think the movie was bad, you are wrong.


No, Half Life's magic was in the level design and the play mechanics. Like Halo, there was nothing really revolutionary/evolutionary/innovative about it, it just took all the good things about the shooter genre and did them really well. It set out to be a fun and entertaining game, and it accomplished that. It did so without a good story, but who cares? It was still fun in spades, so if it ain't broke...
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
You try an experiment. It goes wrong. Explosions and mutants later and the coolness and creeppiness of the game, you receive word that the military is coming to save you. Ready for the twist. It turns out the military is actually here to kill you. The plot thickens. Then there is that guy that you always see, what the hell is his purpose. You have to figure that out.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
FAR CRY is so retarded. My bullets don't even hit the center of the crosshair, they hit the lower right corner. That makes it so much more difficult to play with. The 2nd demo seems a bit more interesting, but I didn't get far because the crosshair is just too annoying. This demo seems harder on medium difficulty.
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
heh.. looks like we have new life in this thread :)

half-life was a great game, no doubt, but really... did i offer any new concepts?

atmosphere: yea, it offered atmosphere.. but so did many other games within the genre. i remember playing quake in single player.. sure, the story was thin, at best, but man.. playin in the dark.. it was creepy! depth, no.. atmosphere? definately! sure, it was engaging, but not entirely immersing unless you could imagine a world filled with clones. some model diversity would have been nice.

ai: i think this was one of the stronger pts of hl.. but much of it was scripted.. and it's not like the enemy did anything extaordinarily different, it just did it better and raised the bar.

story: the story itself was not fantastic, however it's presentation was. it was believable enough, and had enough depth to make you want to find out what happens next, but the story itself was little more than an elaborate version of doom. but what made it was the timing and presentation (often via scripted events). it wasn't the story or plot itself, rather the way it was revealed, imo.

if there is one part of the game which i think could be argued as being "revolutionary", it's the levels, or what seemed like the lack thereof. the game is a continuous level from beginning to end, where you can, with a few exceptions, move back and forth at will. there's a bit of loading here and there between zones which kinda breaks up the continuity a bit, but they are brief, and don't really detract from the concept.

overall i don't see anything that was done in half life that didn't take what wasn't done before (except maybe the "continuous" level.. had that been done before? i don't remember....) and take it a step further, which is why i don't view it as "revolutionary". now.. it took ALOT of tried and true concepts and improved on them; that it improved/extended (evolved) the genre in so many areas is what i think made it such a special game, and one of the top games in its genre of all time.. but that in itself doesn't fall under the definations of "revolutionary" rather than "evolutionary" imo.

 

Insomniak

Banned
Sep 11, 2003
4,836
0
0
Like I said...

Originally posted by: Insomniak
there was nothing really revolutionary/evolutionary/innovative about it, it just took all the good things about the shooter genre and did them really well.

 

ZimZum

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2001
1,281
0
76
Originally posted by: Insomniak


As for Snatch - if you thought that movie was about a bunch of guys fighting over a briefcase, you missed the entire point of the movie. It doesn't really matter anyway, in that if you think the movie was bad, you are wrong.

I liked Snatch better the first time I saw it when it was called Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. Either way , both are nothing more than Guy Ritchie doing an impersonation of early Tarantino.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
Lock Stock. That movie rocks. And it is true. Snatch is the same movie with a lot of the same characters, but it's different - It happened in the town next to where Lock Stock took place. :)
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: ZimZum
Originally posted by: Insomniak


As for Snatch - if you thought that movie was about a bunch of guys fighting over a briefcase, you missed the entire point of the movie. It doesn't really matter anyway, in that if you think the movie was bad, you are wrong.

I liked Snatch better the first time I saw it when it was called Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. Either way , both are nothing more than Guy Ritchie doing an impersonation of early Tarantino.
I think both movies are good but Snatch was by far my favorite of the two. I've probably watched it a dozen times and still enjoy it each time. "You like dags?" ;) :p

 

CubicZirconia

Diamond Member
Nov 24, 2001
5,193
0
71
Originally posted by: VIAN
30fps and up is playable. And one of the most important things is consistancy in the frame rate.

I'm easily pulling over 30 fps on my relatively old system. Bring on the full game.

sorry but this game is playable just on LOW settings..

On your system, maybe. Not on everyone's though.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
As for Snatch - if you thought that movie was about a bunch of guys fighting over a briefcase

I was talking about Pulp Fiction.

You have yet to show any good dissection as to the flaws that you see with HL's story, nor have you done anything but talk about generalities in regards to why you think your counter examples are good. If you are not capable of handling such discussion then just say so. I've given you multiple examples of how your examples all have very weak premises, and yet you are still using the premise as an example. Also- DeusEX came after Half-Life, so no matter that you are taken with the middle school conspiracy story line it can't possibly refute how much of an impact HL had.

atmosphere: yea, it offered atmosphere.. but so did many other games within the genre.

They had environment, not atmosphere. Quake's score did a very good job at giving it some atmosphere, but nothing comparable to HL.

ai: i think this was one of the stronger pts of hl.. but much of it was scripted.. and it's not like the enemy did anything extaordinarily different, it just did it better and raised the bar.

Scripted? Sometimes you would run in to a group of Marines and they would lay down cover fire and then try to flank you, using grenades to flush you out. Next time you run in to them they may simply try and rush you(I'm talking the same group) another time they may take up defensive positions and make you try to take them out. The rushing was the only option prior AI had shown.

but what made it was the timing and presentation (often via scripted events). it wasn't the story or plot itself, rather the way it was revealed, imo.

As always, the way in which it is told is what makes a story. The LOTR books are about throwing away a ring. Pretty freakin lame @ss. The way in which it was told is what makes it a classic.

overall i don't see anything that was done in half life that didn't take what wasn't done before (except maybe the "continuous" level.. had that been done before? i don't remember....) and take it a step further, which is why i don't view it as "revolutionary".

You can argue that all the way back to Pong.
 

Insomniak

Banned
Sep 11, 2003
4,836
0
0
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker


I was talking about Pulp Fiction.

You have yet to show any good dissection as to the flaws that you see with HL's story, nor have you done anything but talk about generalities in regards to why you think your counter examples are good. If you are not capable of handling such discussion then just say so. I've given you multiple examples of how your examples all have very weak premises, and yet you are still using the premise as an example. Also- DeusEX came after Half-Life, so no matter that you are taken with the middle school conspiracy story line it can't possibly refute how much of an impact HL had.

*sigh*

There are no flaws with Half Life's story, it simply is not up to par with other examples of great story writing, either within its own field (PC Games) or in comparison to others (movies, novels). The basic setup is adequate for the purposes of the game and does it's job admirably - it simply isn't an example of great story construction. You mention pacing and revelation in your previous posts, but these have nothing to do with the quality of the story. No matter how well a story is presented, it can't escape it's subject matter. In Half-Life, the subject is obviously Gordon Freeman and the events that occur during his "escape" from Black Mesa. It is very repetitive - action, travel, action, travel, action, travel. Very little is expounded upon outside of Gordon's trials. There are a couple of "major events", for example, the military getting involved, and the "mystery" of the G-Man, but these add almost nothing to the story itself. The Military simply become more cannon fodder for Gordon, and G-Man does little besides make some cryptic statements at the end of the game which are supposed to impart mystery and curiosity. If Half Life's storyboard were composed into a novel or a movie, the book would be a low-grade vanilla thriller and the movie would be a summer released teeny-bopper targeting effects fest.

Deus Ex is a counter example, and a good one at that for many reasons. Since I've already demonstrated how subject matter is a core of a story's worth, let's look at the subject matter employed in Deus Ex. The subject matter in Deus Ex is of course JC Denton, and his involvement with Bob Page's attempt at world domination. Now, the gameplay in DX is not repetitive as it is with Half Life. If the player wants, it can be of the action, travel, etc. dynamic used in most first person shooters, or the player can instead elect to avoid conflict and choose stealth as his/her weapon instead. In this, two or more very different stories emerge. In one, JC Denton is a lethal killing machine with a sky high body count - the proverbial Arnold movie. In the other, he is master of the shadows and rarely deals a killing blow unless absolutely neccesary - in movie terms, there really isn't a recognizable stereotype I'm aware of. In a third, he is a she :)

Aside from the fact that the player's actions lead to two different stories, there is the additional subject matter. In Deus Ex, major events occur that alter the story completely. First, your defection from UNATCO to join the NSF - from there, your involvement with Tracer Tong, and then Morgan Everett and the Illuminati, and so on. Not only is the story more varied, it's subject matter is expounded upon - you learn of these various groups, events that occurred in the past between them, their relationships - the details are more fleshed out and the world rendered more complete in doing so. The story seems more real and plausible. Also, Deus Ex's story mechanics add tension. Whereas Half-Life counts on the "will he survive?" conundrum to foster tension, Deus Ex adds the "Am I doing the right thing?" question to the survival factor. Double and even triple crosses occur, and you, the player, are forced to make decisions on who to trust and what to do - and the outcomes of such decisions, again, result in a varied and different story lines. The twists that occur based on the player's decisions are sometimes predictable, sometimes unexpected, but on the whole keep the player guessing far more than Half-Life, which had no real twists to speak of. Deus Ex's "major events" do impact the story - they change who you're opposition is, what missions you undertake, what decisions you make, and what information is revealed to you.

Revelation and pacing do help a story achieve success, but only if the subject matter is worthwhile. While both Half Life and Deus Ex manage to pace their stories well, Deus Ex's superior subject matter puts it in the lead in this race. No matter how well paced, Half-Life can't escape the fact that it is about two major things: alien invasion and survival. In contrast, Deus Ex is about conspiracy, betrayal, investigating, sneaking, survival, trusting, distrusting, and personal choice.

It is not my intent to refute any impact which Half-Life had - it was a great game and well deserving of its success. As a means of conveying a deep, thought provoking story however, it is not successful - but that's ok. It was never intended to be. Deus Ex's construction, subject matter, and gameplay method result in a story that is far more varied, surprising, and generally entertaining than the one served up by Half-Life. This isn't any knock against Half-Life, just a distinction between the two games, and a correction of this myth that Half-Life had some sort of "great story".
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
Since I've already demonstrated how subject matter is a core of a story's worth

Man are we in trouble in the coming years in terms of the creative process at least if this is what today's youth is being taught. You have yet to be able to refute any of my simplified explenations of your examples of what you consider to be great examples of story telling. Mainly your choices are quite telling that you are a young man still entrenched in the thought of conspiracies and some grander scale scheme of the powers that be to subvert the people, a trend most common in older adolescent and slightly post adolescent minds. Your mindset is dictating to you what you find good instead of your judgement being capable of dissecting the material at hand for particular strengths and weaknesses based on what you are citing.

Again- Pulp Fiction is a bunch of guys fighting over a briefcase.

DeusEX is yet another in the tired line of conspiracy stories.

These simplified explenations can not be changed by you expanding on them, that is irrelevant as what you need to do is come to the realization that it is precisely in the telling of these stories that their strength lies. Even your own sitings are based on the fact that they expand off of their very simplistic core. Pretty much every great work in terms of literature or film have a very simple premise that is executed brilliantly. Your own sitings have cores that are commonplace in dime store novels, they aren't thought provoking in the least in and of themselves. Executed properly, even such drivel as another giant conspiracy can come across as a brilliant story.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
In HL, the action is the story. That's what it felt like.

Everything could be simplified to something simple.

Every action movie goes as follows:

Establish Hero
Establish Nemesis
Action
Establish Obstacle for Hero
Action
Hero vs Nemesis meet
Chase
Final Battle: Hero vs Nemesis
Hero starts winning
Hero struggles
Hero wins

Every horror movie:

They split up.
The black guy dies. :) - no offense, just thinking of Scary Movie
They investigate a noise that is used by the killer as bait. It happens all the time. You're on your couch: Don't go there b|tch! "Slash"
Somehow, when there is only two people left, they kill the bastard.
Happy ending.
The audienced gets notified that the killer isn't dead.

Simple formulas, just like surviving an alien invasion. We want to know what happens in between or else every movie would suck. We know it's gonna work out, so why bother seeing it.

What is also interesting is that if DeusX story telling became trendy, then it wouldn't be as interesting anymore. HL's plot or atleast most of it wasn't revolutionary, because, obviously we had many games claiming that plot, it's how the entire game comes together.
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
0
They had environment, not atmosphere. Quake's score did a very good job at giving it some atmosphere, but nothing comparable to HL.

ummm.. that doesnt make sense... was it envorinment or atmosphere? what's the difference? and again, as i stated it took something (atmosphere) that was there before (as you seem to agree with me, quake) and raised the bar...

Scripted? Sometimes you would run in to a group of Marines and they would lay down cover fire and then try to flank you, using grenades to flush you out. Next time you run in to them they may simply try and rush you(I'm talking the same group) another time they may take up defensive positions and make you try to take them out. The rushing was the only option prior AI had shown.

half-life uses manually placed waypoints. it also uses scripted behaviours to use these waypoints. not actually sure if the squad tactics even needed ai.. there was a site some time ago that had an article by lars liden (he programmed on hl: blueshift) as well as at least two other applicable articles by one of the other programmers (forget his name) which discussed these techniques, but you'll have to forgive me for not directly quoting the source as it was so long ago i can't remember where that was...

As always, the way in which it is told is what makes a story. The LOTR books are about throwing away a ring. Pretty freakin lame @ss. The way in which it was told is what makes it a classic.
wow.. normally i see you make very good arguments on your point of view, but i have to say, i think this is one of the lamest ones i've seen. umm.. from it being more than just a "ring", to having multiple plotlines.. your example is so oversimplified to suit your point it has no relevance.[/quote]

another analogy that's so oversimplified... well.. in other words all games are basically the same since pong. hmmm..

at any rate it's all subjective, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one :)