This place used to be quite different, no?

[jackstar7]

This is a silly statement. If older conservatives wanted a safe space they certainly wouldn’t come here..

This might be true. I think the primary motivation of older conservatives is simply spreading FUD at every turn.

But I'm just basing on that on all of their posts.

 

[Jhhnn]

I can go on but as you asked just one reason

How is to fair to those countless people in the fucked up legal immigration system, both within and outside America, who many times spend decades and many end up in failure. That people who deliberately break the law and enter America illegally to have their children given preferential treatment over law abiding people? Because of the Hispanic vote. Law is for losers only?

Is fairness an essential part of morality, would you agree?

You can't get around the fact that the Dreamers are innocent people, brought to this country as children. The Salvadoran refugees here since 2001 are also innocent.

It's Quixotic quest, anyway, because you'll never make America White again. It's much too late for that.

 

[Noah Abrams]

. Where are the journalistic pieces the takes distance from Trump but maintains a right leaning perspective?

There are several:

- Weekly Standard
- National Review
- People like Ross Douthat, George Will, David Brooks and others.

Now I certainly don't agree with all their views. Most of them support American Imperialism and the military industrial complex (the left is as much complicit in it). Some have Islamititis e.g. David French of National Review. But you don't have to agree with everything about a person to listen to their views. If that were so, there would be nobody on earth to listen to. Or we would all be puppets parroting the party lines as too many of the liberal friends on this forum are. Hence the echo chamber like effect here.

 

[Noah Abrams]

You can't get around the fact that the Dreamers are innocent people, brought to this country as children. The Salvadoran refugees here since 2001 are also innocent.

It's Quixotic quest, anyway, because you'll never make America White again. It's much too late for that.

Are you fucking kidding me? Or you are deliberately trolling? Do I look like someone who wants to make America all white again? Have you even bothered to read my posts?

And what the hell does "innocent" mean? Is going back to their countries some kind of death sentence to be pronounced on the "guilty" ones? What has innocence or guilt got to do with it?

 

[fskimospy]

Are you fucking kidding me? Or you are deliberately trolling? Do I look like someone who wants to make America all white again? Have you even bothered to read my posts?

And what the hell does "innocent" mean? Is going back to their countries some kind of death sentence to be pronounced on the "guilty" ones? What has innocence or guilt got to do with it?

I feel like you have to decide if you’re making a moral or practical argument. If it’s morality based, why is it moral to destroy the life of someone who is in all other ways indistinguishable from any other American citizen, take them away from everything they’ve ever known simply because their parents carried them across the border when they were six months old? What moral value is advanced there?

If you’re making a practical argument it’s even worse. These are generally productive, taxpaying citizens. We gain nothing from deporting the people we already spent money educating, right as they started repaying our investment.

 

[Amused]

Are you fucking kidding me? Or you are deliberately trolling? Do I look like someone who wants to make America all white again? Have you even bothered to read my posts?

And what the hell does "innocent" mean? Is going back to their countries some kind of death sentence to be pronounced on the "guilty" ones? What has innocence or guilt got to do with it?

For Dreamers, this country and culture is all they know. They grew up here, brought here as babies. It would be akin to ICE agents showing up at YOUR door and deporting you to a country you never knew.

Innocence has everything to do with it.

Why is it empathy is such a difficult thing for so many?

 

[brycejones]

Why is it empathy is such a difficult thing for so many?

I honestly think this is the biggest gap between liberals and conservatives at least based on the posting here. People who identify themselves as "conservatives" here frequently appear unable to empathize with the situations of other people unless they have lived that same situation themselves. It comes up again and again as "x" was good enough for me so it should be fine for everyone or I've never had "y" problem so no one else should either.

 

[fskimospy]

I honestly think this is the biggest gap between liberals and conservatives at least based on the posting here. People who identify themselves as "conservatives" here frequently appear unable to empathize with the situations of other people unless they have lived that same situation themselves. It comes up again and again as "x" was good enough for me so it should be fine for everyone or I've never had "y" problem so no one else should either.

Even then it’s not so helpful, at least if it’s in the past. I still remember Craig T. Nelson ranting about how nobody had helped him get a leg up and he still succeeded. Evidence for his poverty? He was on welfare and food stamps.

 

[Blackjack200]

For Dreamers, this country and culture is all they know. They grew up here, brought here as babies. It would be akin to ICE agents showing up at YOUR door and deporting you to a country you never knew.

Innocence has everything to do with it.

Why is it empathy is such a difficult thing for so many?

These are the attitudes about immigration and undocumented people that I've been encountering in the Trump era. There is absolutely no empathy or consideration for the humanity of these people. None. They are insanely cruel and use absurd language like "going back to their country" to protect themselves from their own inhumanity. I don't think I've ever had a productive conversation with someone that thinks this way. You can't make people care about other people, that has to be a starting point.

 

[Amused]

I honestly think this is the biggest gap between liberals and conservatives at least based on the posting here. People who identify themselves as "conservatives" here frequently appear unable to empathize with the situations of other people unless they have lived that same situation themselves. It comes up again and again as "x" was good enough for me so it should be fine for everyone or I've never had "y" problem so no one else should either.

But I'm center right politically.

This is no longer a liberal/conservative debate. These are not conservatives. At least, not the conservatives I grew up with.

To me, these are authoritarian nationalists

 

[Noah Abrams]

Ok guys, thank you for all the wonderful labels you have attached, without knowing anything about the person. Keep it up.

Actually, going back to their countries was about the people who came here on temporary status, e.g. after earthquake and stuff. That is why it is called "temporary" status. For the dreamers, of course it is neither practical nor very moral to deport them. But legal status they definitely should not get.

Another reason for this: parents often do things not for themselves but for their children. By giving them any legal status, you are giving even more incentive for more illegals to come in with their children. And by the way, who bears the cost of schooling and other such stuff for them? Joe the tax payer with his hard earned money. Is it moral to take someone's wages forcefully and use them on your illegal pet constituents?

You bleeding hearts think you are very compassionate, and I know you are sincere in that belief. But unable to look at the bigger picture and have a very distorted sense of morality. But then left is entirely based on "feeling" and "emotion" based morality. And this is not just political. This whole business of emotions and how people base things on them is so much more prevalent and deeper than just politics.

 

[Noah Abrams]

You fuckers, I actually HAVE immigrant family members (through my sister who is married to one). I actually know immigrants, am friends with them. Have great respect for them and as I said we entitled and spoiled Americans have much to learn from them.

You guys are a bunch of fucking brainwashed idiots!!!!

 

[Blackjack200]

You can't get around the fact that the Dreamers are innocent people, brought to this country as children. The Salvadoran refugees here since 2001 are also innocent.

It's Quixotic quest, anyway, because you'll never make America White again. It's much too late for that.

Are you fucking kidding me? Or you are deliberately trolling? Do I look like someone who wants to make America all white again? Have you even bothered to read my posts?

And what the hell does "innocent" mean? Is going back to their countries some kind of death sentence to be pronounced on the "guilty" ones? What has innocence or guilt got to do with it?

Ok guys, thank you for all the wonderful labels you have attached, without knowing anything about the person. Keep it up.

Actually, going back to their countries was about the people who came here on temporary status, e.g. after earthquake and stuff. That is why it is called "temporary" status. For the dreamers, of course it is neither practical nor very moral to deport them. But legal status they definitely should not get.

Another reason for this: parents often do things not for themselves but for their children. By giving them any legal status, you are giving even more incentive for more illegals to come in with their children. And by the way, who bears the cost of schooling and other such stuff for them? Joe the tax payer with his hard earned money. Is it moral to take someone's wages forcefully and use them on your illegal pet constituents?

You bleeding hearts think you are very compassionate, and I know you are sincere in that belief. But unable to look at the bigger picture and have a very distorted sense of morality. But then left is entirely based on "feeling" and "emotion" based morality. And this is not just political. This whole business of emotions and how people base things on them is so much more prevalent and deeper than just politics.

You're a fucking liar.

 

[Thebobo]

You fuckers, I ....

You guys are a bunch of fucking brainwashed idiots!!!!

Welcome to P&N

 

[brycejones]

But I'm center right politically.

This is no longer a liberal/conservative debate. These are not conservatives. At least, not the conservatives I grew up with.

To me, these are authoritarian nationalists

I think you're more the exception. I think the most common example is conservatives who were previously opposed to same sex marriage or gay people in general until they find out cousin Jay is married to Bob and they are really just normal people.

 

[cytg111]

There are several:

- Weekly Standard
- National Review
- People like Ross Douthat, George Will, David Brooks and others.

Now I certainly don't agree with all their views. Most of them support American Imperialism and the military industrial complex (the left is as much complicit in it). Some have Islamititis e.g. David French of National Review. But you don't have to agree with everything about a person to listen to their views. If that were so, there would be nobody on earth to listen to. Or we would all be puppets parroting the party lines as too many of the liberal friends on this forum are. Hence the echo chamber like effect here.

Liberal vs. conservative .. i had this thought over in the other thread where we discussed suicide by OC pain medication, simply by reducing the amount of pills attainable per day reduced the amount of suicides by a large amount.... We cant have this discussion about guns cause feels, but maybe we can about pills... Is it ok for government to dictate how many oc painmeds you can buy in one go or is that stepping over the line of personal freedom?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I just realized what this thread reminds me of

 

[fskimospy]

Ok guys, thank you for all the wonderful labels you have attached, without knowing anything about the person. Keep it up.

Actually, going back to their countries was about the people who came here on temporary status, e.g. after earthquake and stuff. That is why it is called "temporary" status. For the dreamers, of course it is neither practical nor very moral to deport them. But legal status they definitely should not get.

Another reason for this: parents often do things not for themselves but for their children. By giving them any legal status, you are giving even more incentive for more illegals to come in with their children. And by the way, who bears the cost of schooling and other such stuff for them? Joe the tax payer with his hard earned money. Is it moral to take someone's wages forcefully and use them on your illegal pet constituents?

You bleeding hearts think you are very compassionate, and I know you are sincere in that belief. But unable to look at the bigger picture and have a very distorted sense of morality. But then left is entirely based on "feeling" and "emotion" based morality. And this is not just political. This whole business of emotions and how people base things on them is so much more prevalent and deeper than just politics.

I have to say you’re projecting again. If you want to discuss immigration using facts, and only facts, I’m perfectly willing to have that discussion. So far though when I have introduced facts you’ve made up fake ones to support your position or simply declared them wrong based on your feelings or personal preferred positions.

You may think you’re arguing logically but you’re not. This is clearly very emotional for you and there’s nothing wrong with that, but you shouldn’t accuse others of doing exactly the same thing you are.

 

[Noah Abrams]

I have to say you’re projecting again. If you want to discuss immigration using facts, and only facts, I’m perfectly willing to have that discussion. So far though when I have introduced facts you’ve made up fake ones to support your position or simply declared them wrong based on your feelings or personal preferred positions.

You may think you’re arguing logically but you’re not. This is clearly very emotional for you and there’s nothing wrong with that, but you shouldn’t accuse others of doing exactly the same thing you are.

Sir, I have based my arguments on morality and fairness. And also practicality - no it is not possible to deport millions of people. What is possible and should happen is to de-incentive (probably not a proper word) illegal immigration. That means not giving any kind of legal status to anybody who comes here illegally, whether 2 years old or 200 years old. And I have also argued why this is the moral thing to do too.

But people here (and I think the most vocal could be the biggest idiots) are not interested in conversation. All they can do is come up with tried old labels. Some of you guys are the left wing equivalent of the hillbillies. And that does not mean everyone, because there are some good posters here who I respect, even if I disagree with them.

I didn't know an internet forum could make you so angry, but that is how I feel now. Maybe it is best for me to go back to the lurker mode I was in for ages.

 

[Blackjack200]

Maybe it is best for me to go back to the lurker mode I was in for ages.

There's no maybe about it.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

I just realized what this thread reminds me of

I can't see it at work but is this a picture of a dumpster fire? Cause I'm going to assume it's a picture of a dumpster fire.

 

[fskimospy]

Sir, I have based my arguments on morality and fairness. And also practicality - no it is not possible to deport millions of people. What is possible and should happen is to de-incentive (probably not a proper word) illegal immigration. That means not giving any kind of legal status to anybody who comes here illegally, whether 2 years old or 200 years old. And I have also argued why this is the moral thing to do too.

Every policy has a price. Why would this policy be preferable to a guest worker policy that also acknowledges the reality that many of those here ‘illegally’ are for all intents and purposes citizens? What is gained?

But people here (and I think the most vocal could be the biggest idiots) are not interested in conversation. All they can do is come up with tried old labels. Some of you guys are the left wing equivalent of the hillbillies. And that does not mean everyone, because there are some good posters here who I respect, even if I disagree with them.

I didn't know an internet forum could make you so angry, but that is how I feel now. Maybe it is best for me to go back to the lurker mode I was in for ages.

If something makes you angry you shouldn’t do it. People are often angered when their political positions are challenged, that’s why it’s not polite dinner conversation after all.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It's Christopher Plummer from the ST movie "The Undiscovered Country". If you haven't seen it, Plummer is a Shakespeare quoting Klingon, and this is a 6 second clip of him in a captain's chair in a battle with Kirk, swivelling around make a madman and saying "Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!"

Thank goodness he knew not to say "let loose".

 

[Noah Abrams]

If something makes you angry you shouldn’t do it. People are often angered when their political positions are challenged, that’s why it’s not polite dinner conversation after all.

I welcome positions to be challenged. It is the left wing ignorant crass hillbilly behavior that is what angers me. And this thread is a perfect illustration why this forum has become a left wing circle jerk. I hope all of you guys at least get some stress relief by the mutual jacking off that is seen here in literally every thread.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Actually, going back to their countries was about the people who came here on temporary status, e.g. after earthquake and stuff.

Those are not DREAMERS.

For the dreamers, of course it is neither practical nor very moral to deport them. But legal status they definitely should not get.

Okay, so we agree on the first half. Why do you think they should not get legal status. By legal status I'm guessing you mean citizenship? What status do you believe they should get? Are you suggesting that they be moved to 'illegal' status? If so you are basically saying that even though it is not moral or practical to deport them we should do it anyway.

Another reason for this: parents often do things not for themselves but for their children. By giving them any legal status, you are giving even more incentive for more illegals to come in with their children.

So we should immorally and impractically harm children brought to the United States to send a message to anyone else that would like a better life for their children? This is your moral argument?

And by the way, who bears the cost of schooling and other such stuff for them? Joe the tax payer with his hard earned money. Is it moral to take someone's wages forcefully and use them on your illegal pet constituents?

Schools are mostly paid for by property taxes which illegal immigrants would pay since, one would presume, that they pay rent.

Bleeding hearts think you are very compassionate, and I know you are sincere in that belief. But unable to look at the bigger picture and have a very distorted sense of morality. But then left is entirely based on "feeling" and "emotion" based morality. And this is not just political. This whole business of emotions and how people base things on them is so much more prevalent and deeper than just politics.

We have a distorted sense of morality? You are the ones suggesting that we need to immorally and impractically harm children as an example to others. Please note, I'm not trying to attack you. This is where your arguments are leading.