This place used to be quite different, no?

[fskimospy]

Then let me suggest where I am on that continuum. We live in a competitive world in which intelligence is highly valued and highly rewarded, provided it doesn't critique the system. The result is that because competition is hate, any who seem to rise on the intelligence spectrum will face attempts to hammer them down. We have all been told we are stupid as a way to inflict pain or to incorrectly attempt to motivate. Stupid becomes a curse.

Like all systems of repression there is the Stockholm effect, where some enforce the stupid sanction and some retain their empathy for the victims, a natural reaction to fear and uncertainty as to our own IQ status.

I learned long ago that I felt stupid and wanted for all the world as a result to be smart. As a result of changing from school in Hawaii to California I suddenly appeared to be smart on my report card. So I took off academically with that encouragement. But I wasn't really smart, just better educated and I widened that gap by studying.

But none of this actually made me feel smart. I feel stupid to this day and I also feel shame. Here I am in love with the idea of being smart, wanting to see myself that way, being competitive and trying to win by belittling the intelligence of others. I'm just a piece of shit. I am arrogant and lacking in respect for the inner life of other people, trying to make them feel bad. I do to others what was done to me, not what I wish were done to me.

So it is this awareness of my flawed nature that has made it possible for me, I think, to want to put the breaks on my contemptuousness to others, and why, I think, the scientific studies of differences in moral concerns between liberals and conservatives was able to reach me. I am very familiar personally with the issues of being stupid, of contempt for stupid, of the ego inflation calling others stupid brings, etc. I don't know where you are on the continuum or if it really is one, but in case I see something you may not I wanted to share. I also may be less concerned about being stupid than I used to be and who knows, maybe you don't have to be smart to know a thing or two. Love you.....

Haha, I agree. Like I said earlier in this thread I don’t think I’m smarter than plenty of the people on here. The difference is I’ve done the reading. Knowledge is easily confused with intelligence.

 

[Indus]

No it wouldn’t because I am an American citizen. I do have relatives who are not American citizens and have spent a considerable amount of money to achieve some level of legal status, with employment being the biggest obstacle. If only they could just run across a border.


Empathy is a slippery slope. One could empathize with any criminal if you take in a broader context. I empathize with the heroin addict who robs a store or the veteran addicted to pain killers who raids a pharmacy. I empathize with the poor inner city kid who gets sucked into a gang and then murders someone. I empathize with Dreamers. But unless we are willing to reform inmigration law or implement more robust guest worker laws, we need to deter illegal immigration with stricter enforcement.

Go to any liberal democratic socialist country as a non citizen and see how long you survive under the radar. France and Germany and Sweden and Switzerland are all empathetic societies, and are draconian and rather nationalistic when it comes to immigration.

Except you forget they give the option of citizenship at 18 years old to those brought there (but there's no amnesty for the adults ofcourse).

 

[Starbuck1975]

Haha, I agree. Like I said earlier in this thread I don’t think I’m smarter than plenty of the people on here. The difference is I’ve done the reading. Knowledge is easily confused with intelligence.

You are smarter than the average liberal on these boards

 

[fskimospy]

You are smarter than the average liberal on these boards

Aww, thank you! I personally think most of the people on this board are pretty smart though; there’s only a few who seem genuinely stupid and even then they could just be trolling.

I think plenty of the liberals here who just shitpost are probably plenty smart they are simply unwilling to discuss things in a rational manner. Same with what conservatives are here.

While we clearly massively disagree I have always appreciated that I think you approach these issues honestly and thoughtfully.

 

[Younigue]

You fuckers, I actually HAVE immigrant family members (through my sister who is married to one). I actually know immigrants, am friends with them. Have great respect for them and as I said we entitled and spoiled Americans have much to learn from them.

You guys are a bunch of fucking brainwashed idiots!!!!

Noah, Noah, Noah, bring it down a notch.

It might help if you suggested something other than kicking them out of the country. Come to the table with solutions not with heartlessness. Do you not see that when you say you know immigrants but Fuck 'em it's similar to saying that one is not prejudice when they say cruel things about minorities because they happen to know a minority.

Sure you want to suggest that because large numbers of people don't believe it to be the correct move to boot DACA recipients that it's all about the feels... Well, the side you're taking is all about your feelings, mostly centered around money.

There are plenty of areas concerning government spending/tax dollar spending that can and should be addressed that wouldn't have anything to do with being cruel and heartless yet you gravitate toward been cruel and heartless... those are choices and stem from those dreaded feelings you're so worried about from those who disagree with you.

You would rather live in a world where saving money comes first from being cruel to individuals rather than entities that have no feelings and too much money because the government is bought and paid for by them and gives them handouts they don't even need?

Think about what you're saying. You're choosing to be a man of severely limited compassion in order to call yourself fiscally responsible? That makes you a douche darling, not a decent human being.

If as you say you know people who are immigrants and they think DACA recipients should be booted from the country... They are douches too.

Oh... Why are your [cruel] feelings more relevant than feelings of kindness, empathy and compassion? If feelings make people babies, you're right here in the crib with us... It's just that on your side of the crib the babies kick, spit at, pull hair and bite the weakest babies in the crib because it makes you feel good.

 

[Thebobo]

Aww, thank you! I personally think most of the people on this board are pretty smart though; there’s only a few who seem genuinely stupid and even then they could just be trolling.

I think plenty of the liberals here who just shitpost are probably plenty smart they are simply unwilling to discuss things in a rational manner. Same with what conservatives are here.

While we clearly massively disagree I have always appreciated that I think you approach these issues honestly and thoughtfully.

He knows his primates!

 

[Jhhnn]

I state categorically that the Obama administration under the authority long given by Congress, could have acted to prevent hundreds of thousands of prosecutions of MJ under federal law, but did not even make an attempt. The occasional response was that Obama was black and couldn't do that. Yeah. Why? It could make future black presidents look bad. Well it goes on from there.

Not quite. Federal law has procedural constraints on that & the bureaucracy would not comply short of some massacre of the people involved. They never will. It never was one of Obama's issues, anyway, but he found a way to thread the needle & do the right thing when the voters of CO & WA forced it upon him. The DEA was absolutely furious, I'm sure. Now that the voters in other states have joined it will force a change in federal law by Congress. Maybe not now but certainly over the next few years. Fear of the unknown no longer applies.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes, I agree, but the question is if their manner actually is cruel or cruel because our beliefs about what cruel is might fall short of full understanding. Is there bias in our understanding of what on it's face must be good as with empathy. What if what we believe empathy is isn't want it really is? Do we question before we judge? Do we judge is we know?

Humans have at least two distinct forms of intelligence which feed back to form a complete human being, intellectual ability and emotional intelligence. One informs the other, confirms or pushes back and we reach an opinion of what is "right or wrong". Without both properly functioning a genius might be completely unmotivated because there is no sense of self that seeks to better themselves or others. Then there might be those who are acutely aware of their emotional environment and completely unequipped to act on it.

With that said I have to wonder if people are empathetic at times because they decide to be, or because they can't help it. It's perhaps not significant since the outcome is what it is, but thinking back on how I react, I have a flow back and forth between the two intelligences I am aware of. For good or ill I will come to an evaluation of whether empathy is warranted and to what degree. I might and have become "hardened" to the plight of another. If someone decided to harm another, especially a loved one, I cannot empathize, there's just no common frame of reference and the damage done makes me less likely to even try. I can appreciate the history that an individual brings to a tragedy of their own making. Indeed I might have a form of sympathy depending on the individual's situation. But empathy? No.

 

[Moonbeam]

Haha, I agree. Like I said earlier in this thread I don’t think I’m smarter than plenty of the people on here. The difference is I’ve done the reading. Knowledge is easily confused with intelligence.

Yes and knowledge can also be confused with wisdom which can affect one's view as to how where and when knowledge is best applied something I have to consider I may very well lack.

 

[Thebobo]

Writing skills are a plus.

 

[Moonbeam]

Humans have at least two distinct forms of intelligence which feed back to form a complete human being, intellectual ability and emotional intelligence. One informs the other, confirms or pushes back and we reach an opinion of what is "right or wrong". Without both properly functioning a genius might be completely unmotivated because there is no sense of self that seeks to better themselves or others. Then there might be those who are acutely aware of their emotional environment and completely unequipped to act on it.

With that said I have to wonder if people are empathetic at times because they decide to be, or because they can't help it. It's perhaps not significant since the outcome is what it is, but thinking back on how I react, I have a flow back and forth between the two intelligences I am aware of. For good or ill I will come to an evaluation of whether empathy is warranted and to what degree. I might and have become "hardened" to the plight of another. If someone decided to harm another, especially a loved one, I cannot empathize, there's just no common frame of reference and the damage done makes me less likely to even try. I can appreciate the history that an individual brings to a tragedy of their own making. Indeed I might have a form of sympathy depending on the individual's situation. But empathy? No.

For me the issue is do I have empathy for machines, one machine to another? I see no way to escape my own programming if I hate myself for being programmed, but that is my programming and it makes me contemptuous of all machines. How do I die to that belief that machines are worthy of contempt or just sympathy. How does a machine even contemplate not being a machine, what it might be to be program free?

 

[Amused]

No it wouldn’t because I am an American citizen. I do have relatives who are not American citizens and have spent a considerable amount of money to achieve some level of legal status, with employment being the biggest obstacle. If only they could just run across a border.


Empathy is a slippery slope. One could empathize with any criminal if you take in a broader context. I empathize with the heroin addict who robs a store or the veteran addicted to pain killers who raids a pharmacy. I empathize with the poor inner city kid who gets sucked into a gang and then murders someone. I empathize with Dreamers. But unless we are willing to reform inmigration law or implement more robust guest worker laws, we need to deter illegal immigration with stricter enforcement.

Go to any liberal democratic socialist country as a non citizen and see how long you survive under the radar. France and Germany and Sweden and Switzerland are all empathetic societies, and are draconian and rather nationalistic when it comes to immigration.

Again, this is about people brought in as children who committed no action of their own volition. They know no other country than the country they were raised in and haven't even had a chance to pursue citizenship yet.

Slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

And here you've compared them to criminals and drug addicts. Seriously?

Just stop.

 

[Younigue]

Sir, I have based my arguments on morality and fairness. And also practicality - no it is not possible to deport millions of people. What is possible and should happen is to de-incentive (probably not a proper word) illegal immigration. That means not giving any kind of legal status to anybody who comes here illegally, whether 2 years old or 200 years old. And I have also argued why this is the moral thing to do too.

But people here (and I think the most vocal could be the biggest idiots) are not interested in conversation. All they can do is come up with tried old labels. Some of you guys are the left wing equivalent of the hillbillies. And that does not mean everyone, because there are some good posters here who I respect, even if I disagree with them.

I didn't know an internet forum could make you so angry, but that is how I feel now. Maybe it is best for me to go back to the lurker mode I was in for ages.

You should do that. If my vote counts for anything (LOL, I don't believe that it does so settle down).

But seriously though, to come at the DACA matter from the point of view that you do you have done little to present yourself in an intelligent, thoughtful manner. It's especially humorous that you would refer to those who disagree with you as hillbillies and idiots. You're the one who thinks humans (that have lived as Americans by all intents and purposes) are disposable. That's pretty idiotic, definitely backwards thinking and unnecessarily cruel.

The anger you're feeling on this forum is from feeling unheard and misunderstood but you are being heard and understood and rejected. That's the real issue honey, rejection sucks am I right? I'll leave it that unless... wait, are you a horse in need of being led to water? You seem reluctant. Let me repeat it, rejection sucks. Given your inclinations, you should appreciate the cruelty in it at the very least.

 

[Blackjack200]

Yes, I agree, but the question is if their manner actually is cruel or cruel because our beliefs about what cruel is might fall short of full understanding. Is there bias in our understanding of what on it's face must be good as with empathy. What if what we believe empathy is isn't want it really is? Do we question before we judge? Do we judge is we know?

If I was to transport myself to India in the late 19th century I believe I could find many British elites willing to defend their imperial domination of India as civilizing, and reject any notion that it was cruel. I believe the question becomes, who gets to decide what is cruel? The subject of the behavior, or the perpetrator?

The man sitting in the back of an ICE van might have a different idea about what is cruel than the man that is driving it, and both opinions might be sincere.

 

[Younigue]

I think people come in here with the idea that they are somehow great debaters and logical geniuses and will be able to put the stupid denizens of P&N in their place in no time. When that doesn’t happen and/or they find out they might not be so smart after all they get mad.

Wait... Why you sharing my P&N personal experience? That was private!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Not quite. Federal law has procedural constraints on that & the bureaucracy would not comply short of some massacre of the people involved. They never will. It never was one of Obama's issues, anyway, but he found a way to thread the needle & do the right thing when the voters of CO & WA forced it upon him. The DEA was absolutely furious, I'm sure. Now that the voters in other states have joined it will force a change in federal law by Congress. Maybe not now but certainly over the next few years. Fear of the unknown no longer applies.

Yes I am an expert in this so I know there are procedures. Obama could approach the Sec of the HHS or the AG and ask the rescheduling process begins. Holder could flat out refuse as he could have with involving the Feds when states decided to invoke states rights and enact their own immigration policy. I submit this refusal as unlikely based on Obama's relationship with AG's during his administration.

Assuming that this goes like everything else in the eight years of Obama's tenure, the Sec of the HHS authorizes that a determination of the current scientific and medical status be presented. The two relevant requirements is to determine

A: Does cannabis have medical uses? The answer is absolutely and the science is overwhelmingly validates this.

B: Does cannabis have an addiction potential and if so what category should it be placed in?

The answer is "yes" to the first, but where on the Schedules? Scientifically there's no reason for CI and lets backtrack

To be a CI to begin with there are to criteria which must be met- That it is among the most addictive substances which are regulated AND no medical uses. If MJ was as addictive as heroin it still has recognized medical uses. Bugbears of "no we're Republicans and you can't science" do not apply.

But it isn't as addictive. Where should it be? That depends as it's a complex issue that needs to be determined, hence the mandated study by the HHS. Whatever it is, the greatest penalties that can be given are for C-I and C-II. State law usually follows Federal so they can legally lower to whatever the Obama Administration deemed appropriate.


BTW, what if the HSS said "Cannabis should be a Schedule V substance" -NOTE- For our purposes "Schedule X" is identical to the term "C-X", be being for the controlled substance category. These terms constantly interchanged with identical meaning. Anyway, the HHS says "Reschedule to this" if the AG were part of some deep state bureaucracy, refuses to reschedule. Nope. The law that the "AG SHALL reschedule" per HHS. This is absolutely binding and is grounds for termination or impeachment in no uncertain terms. Again, unlikely.

That leaves on thing more. The Deep State Bureaucracy that fails to obey to sabotage Obama.

Well I'll leave others to make up their mind on that, but I will note that curiously there was no Deep State revolt with Obamacare or requiring equal access to school bathrooms, something surely as hated as rescheduling by legal and proper means. It's not even an exectuive order.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

For me the issue is do I have empathy for machines, one machine to another? I see no way to escape my own programming if I hate myself for being programmed, but that is my programming and it makes me contemptuous of all machines. How do I die to that belief that machines are worthy of contempt or just sympathy. How does a machine even contemplate not being a machine, what it might be to be program free?

I'll answer your question with a question. Do true human beings have the ability to become more than the sum of their parts, especially when in the presence of other humans? Can a good friend help us to become more? I think in that lies the answer to your question.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Sure you want to suggest that because large numbers of people don't believe it to be the correct move to boot DACA recipients that it's all about the feels... Well, the side you're taking is all about your feelings, mostly centered around money.

There are plenty of areas concerning government spending/tax dollar spending that can and should be addressed that wouldn't have anything to do with being cruel and heartless yet you gravitate toward been cruel and heartless... those are choices and stem from those dreaded feelings you're so worried about from those who disagree with you.

You would rather live in a world where saving money comes first from being cruel to individuals rather than entities that have no feelings and too much money because the government is bought and paid for by them and gives them handouts they don't even need?

As a former party line liberal, I can see why you find it cruel (by the way, I am no saying we should deport them). I mean these guys came here as children due to "no fault of their own". Let me give some examples:

- Parents gamble away, the bank wants to foreclose on the house. Children live in the house too. Should we stop the bank from foreclosing on the house and removing the children from the house because it is "no fault of their own". What do you say?

Let me address the money issue. I encourage you to spend your money on the less privileged of the society, including undocumented immigrants. That would be charity and a good thing. It will do you good personally as a person too.

What you and I don't have is the right to stop a stranger, take his money and spend it on anything we like. That is govt money. The left seems to think the govt money is just some money out there. No, it is not. It is tax payer money. It is immoral to steal. In every culture, in every religion

Also you talked about compassion. Where is your compassion for the children and families (all law abiding citizens of this country) whose lives are being ruined because more and more areas are turning into ghettos? Where all sorts of crap is going on in schools and parents have no choice but to send their kids to those schools. I can go and on. Do they deserve some compassion? Maybe you live such a life of affluence (like most educated rich white liberals) that you have no idea what the illegal immigration is doing to this country.

As for the last line, I am hugely against corporate and military welfare too. As I have said, both the right and left are looting this country with both hands. The price to be paid maybe by this generation. If not, then most certainly by future generations. In a big way.

Also

 

[Zorba]

Full disclosure on my part. I am by nature someone who is usually not satisfied by "statement X confirms conclusion Y". Very often words are constructed to limit conclusions, not expand on them. At times we do this for brevity and clarity, but in politics, that may be a means of obfuscatory opportunism. I tend to look at a premise and analyze "Is this contextually valid and complete and are there other possibly credible views. If true how significant is it in a larger topic of debate". I'll play devil's advocate, a prodder, or for those who don't get it, troll. But usually, there is a purpose.

The problem is that challenging the "truths" of a given cohort tends to make one "the other". In effect I might be, at least to the point I can see valid criticism or different ways of approach. God knows I was a corporatist shill Republican profiting off of Big Pharma or whatever when Obamacare was proposed. I should expect that someone now will go on defense now.

But if Bush or Obama or Trump engaged in what I consider violations of rights, who should I side with? Who should I defend? Who should I not include in a general case of systemic abuse? The latter gets whataboutism a fair deal which is often really lame use of ad hominem.

Let me play truth and consequences and see if anything happens.

I state categorically that the Obama administration under the authority long given by Congress, could have acted to prevent hundreds of thousands of prosecutions of MJ under federal law, but did not even make an attempt. The occasional response was that Obama was black and couldn't do that. Yeah. Why? It could make future black presidents look bad. Well it goes on from there.

No wonder I'm on the left and the right sometimes at the same time . I suspect I'm not alone with others processing in a similar way.

Yeah, basically what I said with a lot more words . You are more moderate (to use a label) or pragmatic than many posters here. So when most of the threads were about Obama, you seemed to be more right of center, now that most of the threads are about the stupidity that is Trump you come off more left.

My original post that Wolfe quoted, I was saying moderates now seem more left just based on the context of what the threads are right now. I think I come off more left than I did a few years ago, just because of the topics at hand (Although I am becoming more left leaning with age, damn @fskimospy posting data all the time and my own life experiences).

 

[Zorba]

Aww, thank you! I personally think most of the people on this board are pretty smart though; there’s only a few who seem genuinely stupid and even then they could just be trolling.

This is why I come to a computer forum for politics. The average intelligence of debate here is so much higher than anywhere else I've found on the internet, at least consistently.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yeah, basically what I said with a lot more words . You are more moderate (to use a label) or pragmatic than many posters here. So when most of the threads were about Obama, you seemed to be more right of center, now that most of the threads are about the stupidity that is Trump you come off more left.

My original post that Wolfe quoted, I was saying moderates now seem more left just based on the context of what the threads are right now. I think I come off more left than I did a few years ago, just because of the topics at hand (and I am becoming more left leaning with age, damn @fskimospy posting data all the time and life experiences).

Mea culpa

 

[Noah Abrams]

Oh, and if you don't want to be mistaken for a xenophobic stiff dick raver

Ok so anybody who is against giving favorable treatment to illegal immigrants is a xenophobe. Please file a report to Democratic National Committee asap. A xenophobe found, with the following characteristics:

- Believes there is much white privilege in this country, both of the left and right kind.
- That police act like thugs generally.
- That we act like brutal primates in bombing other countries.
- That we Americans should learn from immigrants.

I bet the media department of DNC would have no problem making a press release. After all, wasn't Obama was a Muslim atheist? Did that stop anybody?

We are living in very interesting times, and once again I feel we deserve that vile creature in WH

 

[Jaskalas]

But Bush was also an era when the left partially mainstreamed batshit themselves. The wild conspiracies and accusations then were bad, but not anything compared to what's going on now.

I think the tipping point was the Tea Party. The leading vanguard was the religious right starting in the 80s. But even in that era the party was still led by intellectuals and facts still mattered, for the most part. But with Obama and the Tea Party, suddenly the right started sounding like tin foil hatters and anti-vaxxers. The batshit moved from the fringe and became mainstreamed. When politicians could campaign on debunked conspiracy theories and win, that's when it was too much for me.

I suggest it was the dawn of social media, when the internet moved from nerd to mainstream. Where someone could tell a lie and there was no longer any journalistic filter between it and _everyone_. Therefore group-think and rampant stupidity spread like a contagion. Humanity was not prepared for mass communications. Though we have benefited from it, this is one of the little acknowledged costs. Our cultural mind-share has taken a step back, and devolved into something ugly. From intellectual reason to mob madness.

Time will tell whether we can weather this storm of... stupidity.

 

[Jhhnn]

As a former party line liberal, I can see why you find it cruel (by the way, I am no saying we should deport them). I mean these guys came here as children due to "no fault of their own". Let me give some examples:

- Parents gamble away, the bank wants to foreclose on the house. Children live in the house too. Should we stop the bank from foreclosing on the house and removing the children from the house because it is "no fault of their own". What do you say?

Let me address the money issue. I encourage you to spend your money on the less privileged of the society, including undocumented immigrants. That would be charity and a good thing. It will do you good personally as a person too.

What you and I don't have is the right to stop a stranger, take his money and spend it on anything we like. That is govt money. The left seems to think the govt money is just some money out there. No, it is not. It is tax payer money. It is immoral to steal. In every culture, in every religion

Also you talked about compassion. Where is your compassion for the children and families (all law abiding citizens of this country) whose lives are being ruined because more and more areas are turning into ghettos? Where all sorts of crap is going on in schools and parents have no choice but to send their kids to those schools. I can go and on. Do they deserve some compassion? Maybe you live such a life of affluence (like most educated rich white liberals) that you have no idea what the illegal immigration is doing to this country.

As for the last line, I am hugely against corporate and military welfare too. As I have said, both the right and left are looting this country with both hands. The price to be paid maybe by this generation. If not, then most certainly by future generations. In a big way.

Also

Desperate Gish galloping.

 

[Jhhnn]

We are living in very interesting times, and once again I feel we deserve that vile creature in WH

You may deserve him. The majority of us certainly didn't vote for him.

The GOP loves it just the way it is. Get the ravers all frothed up every 2 years for the votes claiming something has to be done, then do nothing for the next 2 years, wash, rinse & repeat. They fall for it every time.