This place used to be quite different, no?

[Younigue]

And when they become adults?

They'll obviously rape you, steal from you then take your job. Or ya know be no better and no worse than any other American a.k.a. human being.

 

[Younigue]

Nvm my other post in the other thread. You're a retard.

He's certainly stunted in all ways required to function as a reasonable adult person.

 

[Noah Abrams]

So a lot of talk has gone on and no one has even attempted to answer the two central questions:

1. Does morality consist only of empathy? Or does it consist of empathy AND fairness?

2. To give legal status to illegal immigrants - is it FAIR to those who languish in the legal immigration system for decades? Some even die before their number comes. Some legal immigrants can't even bring their husband or wife! Well, unless they can wait like 15 years. Is it ok to tell the law abiding people that you suckers are idiots. If you were smart, you would have paid a smuggler to cross you over. Should we tell them that?

Could someone oblige me? Thank you in advance

 

[brycejones]

After pages of the OP ranting like a loon now he wants to return to reasonable discussion? Sure......

 

[UberNeuman]

After pages of the OP ranting like a loon now he wants to return to reasonable discussion? Sure......

If people just wouldn't take the bait. oh, well.

 

[Amused]

You were saying?

We were saying how stupid and gullible you are for falling for an obvious photoshop.

 

[Noah Abrams]

After pages of the OP ranting like a loon now he wants to return to reasonable discussion? Sure......

Wouldn't it be natural for a loon to get attracted to a lunatic asylum?

By the way, I see you actually didn't bother to respond to the two questions. Surprise surprise!

But you forgot to call me a xenophobe! Do better next time

 

[Noah Abrams]

And there is yet another question that has not been answered

Question: A general amnesty to illegal immigrants was given during the 80s, with the same govt promises that no more illegal people would come in. So can govt be trusted to keep its word this time in 2018? Or there would be the same conversation of "they were children, it is not their fault", 20 to 30 years from now?

Much obliged

 

[woolfe9998]

Full disclosure on my part. I am by nature someone who is usually not satisfied by "statement X confirms conclusion Y". Very often words are constructed to limit conclusions, not expand on them. At times we do this for brevity and clarity, but in politics, that may be a means of obfuscatory opportunism. I tend to look at a premise and analyze "Is this contextually valid and complete and are there other possibly credible views. If true how significant is it in a larger topic of debate". I'll play devil's advocate, a prodder, or for those who don't get it, troll. But usually, there is a purpose.

The problem is that challenging the "truths" of a given cohort tends to make one "the other". In effect I might be, at least to the point I can see valid criticism or different ways of approach. God knows I was a corporatist shill Republican profiting off of Big Pharma or whatever when Obamacare was proposed. I should expect that someone now will go on defense now.

But if Bush or Obama or Trump engaged in what I consider violations of rights, who should I side with? Who should I defend? Who should I not include in a general case of systemic abuse? The latter gets whataboutism a fair deal which is often really lame use of ad hominem.

Let me play truth and consequences and see if anything happens.

I state categorically that the Obama administration under the authority long given by Congress, could have acted to prevent hundreds of thousands of prosecutions of MJ under federal law, but did not even make an attempt. The occasional response was that Obama was black and couldn't do that. Yeah. Why? It could make future black presidents look bad. Well it goes on from there.

No wonder I'm on the left and the right sometimes at the same time . I suspect I'm not alone with others processing in a similar way.

I think you have a tendency to dislike whoever is in power at the moment. But you seem somewhat more critical of Trump than you were of Obama, so there's probably more to it than mere contrarianism.

 

[Zaap]

From my POV the forum used to have more reasonable members probably from other subforums here. There have always been batshit leftloons, but moreso than now the worst of them were relegated more to background noise.

Since the election of Trump, unless all you're into is raving like a loon about him 24/7, a lot of peeps probably find that pretty boring. (I can't stand Trump personally, but the ravings of his detractors who are either as dumb or dumber than he and his ilk doesn't become automatically interesting either) .

The worst raving loons that we're pushed to background noise fit in perfectly now with the 24/7 rave like a loonbag shitshow, so quite a few of the worst offenders not only crawled back out from under rocks... they thrive in the shit-show mindless circlejerk sewer that's evolved.

So there you go. If a far left lunatic that most people (even honest leftwingers) readily recognized as senile and suffering mental illness was elected prez, probably something of an opposite effect would happen.

 

[dank69]

From my POV the forum used to have more reasonable members probably from other subforums here. There have always been batshit leftloons, but moreso than now the worst of them were relegated more to background noise.

Since the election of Trump, unless all you're into is raving like a loon about him 24/7, a lot of peeps probably find that pretty boring. (I can't stand Trump personally, but the ravings of his detractors who are either as dumb or dumber than he and his ilk doesn't become automatically interesting either) .

The worst raving loons that we're pushed to background noise fit in perfectly now with the 24/7 rave like a loonbag shitshow, so quite a few of the worst offenders not only crawled back out from under rocks... they thrive in the shit-show mindless circlejerk sewer that's evolved.

So there you go. If a far left lunatic that most people (even honest leftwingers) readily recognized as senile and suffering mental illness was elected prez, probably something of an opposite effect would happen.

He already was elected, or have you already forgotten the 8 years of the Obama Presidency? I mean, the guy wore a tan suit for God's sake, and he wasn't even an American.

 

[Thebobo]

From my POV the forum used to have more reasonable members probably from other subforums here. There have always been batshit leftloons, but moreso than now the worst of them were relegated more to background noise.

Since the election of Trump, unless all you're into is raving like a loon about him 24/7, a lot of peeps probably find that pretty boring. (I can't stand Trump personally, but the ravings of his detractors who are either as dumb or dumber than he and his ilk doesn't become automatically interesting either) .

The worst raving loons that we're pushed to background noise fit in perfectly now with the 24/7 rave like a loonbag shitshow, so quite a few of the worst offenders not only crawled back out from under rocks... they thrive in the shit-show mindless circlejerk sewer that's evolved.

So there you go. If a far left lunatic that most people (even honest leftwingers) readily recognized as senile and suffering mental illness was elected prez, probably something of an opposite effect would happen.

batshit leftloons raving like a loon
are either as dumb or dumber
The worst raving loons
loonbag shitshow
shit-show mindless circlejerk sewer that's evolved.
far left lunatic
senile and suffering mental illness

 

[fskimospy]

So a lot of talk has gone on and no one has even attempted to answer the two central questions:

1. Does morality consist only of empathy? Or does it consist of empathy AND fairness?

I literally, explicitly answered this question and you ignored it. Don’t complain about people not answering your questions if you don’t pay attention to them.

2. To give legal status to illegal immigrants - is it FAIR to those who languish in the legal immigration system for decades? Some even die before their number comes. Some legal immigrants can't even bring their husband or wife! Well, unless they can wait like 15 years. Is it ok to tell the law abiding people that you suckers are idiots. If you were smart, you would have paid a smuggler to cross you over. Should we tell them that?

Could someone oblige me? Thank you in advance

‘It’s not fair!’ is the argument of a child. The world is how it is and it’s never fair, the only question we should be asking ourselves is what the best way forward is today.

As for how great the life of an illegal immigrant is, you must be joking. The ability to smuggle yourself across the desert is surely more accessible to people attempting legal immigration, as they have more resources. Why don’t more do it? Because it’s horrible. This reminds me of when people talk about how great it must be to live in public housing on food stamps.

 

[Amused]

Reminds me of when people talk about how great it must be to live in public housing on food stamps.

I have a foodstamp collection.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think you have a tendency to dislike whoever is in power at the moment. But you seem somewhat more critical of Trump than you were of Obama, so there's probably more to it than mere contrarianism.

Without any doubt I had issues with some of Obama's policies and actions (sometimes lack of action), but I think "somewhat" isn't the correct measure. I never thought Obama should be impeached and that reasons for being imprisoned would be found. I don't cringe to think Obama and I are of the same species.

 

[Noah Abrams]

‘It’s not fair!’ is the argument of a child. The world is how it is and it’s never fair, the only question we should be asking ourselves is what the best way forward is today.

No Sir, what you are talking about are the inherent inevitable things in life, which are not fair. Someone's parent or abuse could be abusive, someone can get into an accident and so on. I am afraid it is you who is talking like a child here.

What I am talking about is fairness from a legal and judicial perspective. A judge and jury have to decide based on fairness, not on some wishy washy feelings. So legally speaking, is it fair to create laws which allow legalization of people who came here and live here illegally, while millions of law abiding aspiring legal immigrants get screwed? I await your reply.

 

[Noah Abrams]

the only question we should be asking ourselves is what the best way forward is today.

Which brings me back to the question which has been conveniently ignored in this thread: The way forward, right?

Question: A general amnesty to illegal immigrants was given during the 80s, with the same govt promises that no more illegal people would come in. So can govt be trusted to keep its word this time in 2018? Or there would be the same conversation of "they were children, it is not their fault", 20 to 30 years from now?

 

[fskimospy]

No Sir, what you are talking about are the inherent inevitable things in life, which are not fair. Someone's parent or abuse could be abusive, someone can get into an accident and so on. I am afraid it is you who is talking like a child here.

I'm not talking about inherent, inevitable things in life at all. I'm talking about all of life. You think business dealings are fair? You think human relationships are fair? Please.

What I am talking about is fairness from a legal and judicial perspective. A judge and jury have to decide based on fairness, not on some wishy washy feelings. So legally speaking, is it fair to create laws which allow legalization of people who came here and live here illegally, while millions of law abiding aspiring legal immigrants get screwed? I await your reply.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how our legal system works. A judge and jury must enforce the law equally yes, but there is no requirement that legislation somehow be equally fair to all types of people who want to immigrate here. In fact very few of our laws are 'fair' in this sense. Progressive taxation is 'unfair' to wealthier people. The mortgage interest deduction is unfair to people who can't afford houses. The ACA unfairly subsidizes poor people's health care, etc, etc. You're the one arguing about feelings, not me. I want an immigration system that works the best for us, I don't particularly care about your emotional attachment to what you imagine is fair.

I find it unlikely that you actually await my reply as you generally ignore any replies you don't have a good answer to. For example I see you deleted the part of my post where it was pointed out to you that the exact question you were complaining no one would answer had already been answered.

 

[Noah Abrams]

I find it unlikely that you actually await my reply as you generally ignore any replies you don't have a good answer to. For example I see you deleted the part of my post where it was pointed out to you that the exact question you were complaining no one would answer had already been answered.

I am trying to search for it among the hundreds of posts in this thread. Give me some time?

 

[Noah Abrams]

I want an immigration system that works the best for us,

Does it? There was recently a CBO report, which was of course conveniently ignored by the media (but you know if it is favorable, how much we hear about CBO reports). Well, this CBO report declared that legalizing DACA people will add to the national deficit - that is cost the already indebted, heavily burdened tax payer even more. To be paid by who? By our innocent future generations, who are being selfishly fucked by their elders. You want to add even more to this rape? I am sure you are not a selfish person

And how does it benefit us that so many people who will make very good contributions to the society, are law abiding, don't break laws by entering and living illegally, that they continue to get fucked, while illegals get legalized...because...Hispanic vote for the Dems. How about the social costs? More and more areas become worse, schools get worse....unlike folks here, I am not rich, and I see it every day. We already have a large section of local born and bred population whose purpose in life.....well, if anybody finds out, let me know.

It does not even benefit the average Dem voter. For the affluent white rich liberals (many on this forum), it makes them feel better about themselves, that they are being part of something good and compassionate. But the people who benefit from it financially is the political elite of the Dems - the strategists, the lobbyists, the this, the that, the whole filthy political machine including of course the politicians.

You think rich white cynical uppity people like Pelosi or Schummer would even touch a poor Mexican, even with a pole? You think these are some open minded, loving, compassionate people? A typical politician is barely a human being. It is all about their own power and $$$$s. You guys are just pawns

 

[SMOGZINN]

I will answer your questions in a reasonable manner if you will attempt to give a reasonable reply in kind.

1. Does morality consist only of empathy? Or does it consist of empathy AND fairness?

It consists of more than empathy, but does not include the concept of 'fair'. There is no such thing as 'fairness' in reality. The concept of 'fair' is a fantasy told to children. There is no way to empirically decide what is fair, it is always completely subjective, and rarely agreed on by even a simple majority of people and more often than not results in obviously ridiculous solutions.
Being fair is cutting the baby in half, and that is the sort of solutions that are being given as 'fair' in this situation.

2. To give legal status to illegal immigrants - is it FAIR to those who languish in the legal immigration system for decades?

Here is what I'm talking about. Basically, what is being proposed as 'fair' in this case leaves everyone worse off. How is that reasonable? How does that help? It is sticking to an ideological solution even though it very obviously makes no since. To be fair we have to cut the baby in half. Two people claim the baby so the only fair solution is to cut the baby in half so that both get some of it.

Some even die before their number comes. Some legal immigrants can't even bring their husband or wife! Well, unless they can wait like 15 years. Is it ok to tell the law abiding people that you suckers are idiots. If you were smart, you would have paid a smuggler to cross you over. Should we tell them that?

How about this for a solution; we fix the damn system so that this does not happen? We make it reasonably easy to become an American Citizen for those we decide we want, and tell the rest that it is never going to happen instead of letting them rot in limbo forever? Then we decide that the DREAMers are obviously people we want and give them citizenship.

What you are literally suggesting is that because some people have been unfairly treated we should treat everyone else unfairly. You are literally suggesting that we should not aspire to being better.

Question: A general amnesty to illegal immigrants was given during the 80s, with the same govt promises that no more illegal people would come in. So can govt be trusted to keep its word this time in 2018? Or there would be the same conversation of "they were children, it is not their fault", 20 to 30 years from now?

First off it was not a general amnesty. It has specific requirements and only affected 3.2 million of the 11 million illegal immigrants.

Here is the problem with this. You have not shown that there is a problem. Simply put the amnesty was a good thing. I helped people and made us better as a country. It lowered crime and gave helped our economy. If that is the result of amnesty I think we should really not be complaining about it.

 

[fskimospy]

Does it? There was recently a CBO report, which was of course conveniently ignored by the media (but you know if it is favorable, how much we hear about CBO reports). Well, this CBO report declared that legalizing DACA people will add to the national deficit - that is cost the already indebted, heavily burdened tax payer even more. To be paid by who? By our innocent future generations, who are being selfishly fucked by their elders. You want to add even more to this rape? I am sure you are not a selfish person

Oh good, you subscribe to the liberal media conspiracy theory. Sigh.

As to DACA adding to the deficit... I mean... duh. As it stands now DACA recipients pay federal taxes but are ineligible for federal services. ie: we are taking their money and giving them nothing in return, meaning their situation is highly 'unfair'. Being given permanent resident status or citizenship would enable them to receive the services that their tax dollars pay for. I don't think you thought this through as you were pushing fairness before and now you're complaining about the situation becoming more fair because of the deficit.

Also, your ideas on the debt and what it represents are badly wrong but that's a much larger discussion than this. US debt is primarily owned by other Americans, meaning those future generations are repaying the debt to themselves.

And how does it benefit us that so many people who will make very good contributions to the society, are law abiding, don't break laws by entering and living illegally, that they continue to get fucked, while illegals get legalized...because...Hispanic vote for the Dems. How about the social costs? More and more areas become worse, schools get worse....unlike folks here, I am not rich, and I see it every day. We already have a large section of local born and bred population whose purpose in life.....well, if anybody finds out, let me know.

Areas become worse because there are immigrants in them? Huh? Again, I don't give a shit about emotional arguments for 'fairness'. I care about results. Don't try to lecture me on what it's like to be poor either as I've been there. I don't care what your personal experience is, I care about facts.

It does not even benefit the average Dem voter. For the affluent white rich liberals (many on this forum), it makes them feel better about themselves, that they are being part of something good and compassionate. But the people who benefit from it financially is the political elite of the Dems - the strategists, the lobbyists, the this, the that, the whole filthy political machine including of course the politicians.

No, the people that benefit are those who are able to get legal permanent resident status. I mean duh.

You think rich white cynical uppity people like Pelosi or Schummer would even touch a poor Mexican, even with a pole? You think these are some open minded, loving, compassionate people? A typical politician is barely a human being. It is all about their own power and $$$$s. You guys are just pawns

Why would I care about what Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer thinks about Mexicans?

 

[Noah Abrams]

How about this for a solution; we fix the damn system so that this does not happen? We make it reasonably easy to become an American Citizen for those we decide we want, and tell the rest that it is never going to happen instead of letting them rot in limbo forever? Then we decide that the DREAMers are obviously people we want and give them citizenship.

Thank you for your whole reply. You make some good points.

We make it reasonably easy for people to immigrate who we decide we do want. Yes agreed. Thing is, the Dems are not really interested in those people because they are not very politically aware or active and don't vote that much. They do not have a huge Hispanic constituency whose votes the Dems are after. As for Repubs, they do not want any more colored people here, period. If they could, which they can't, they would get rid of all the ones that are already here.

I am interested in the last line too

"Then we decide that the DREAMers are obviously people we want and give them citizenship."

Does that not give an even more massive incentive to more people with their children to come here illegally? I do realize it is not an easy situation and perhaps there are no good answers.

 

[mikeymikec]

Does that not give an even more massive incentive to more people with their children to come here illegally? I do realize it is not an easy situation and perhaps there are no good answers.

If you want to stop people coming to your country, then make yours worse than theirs.

 

[Thebobo]

If you want to stop people coming to your country, then make yours worse than theirs.

Think trump's working on that now..