This place used to be quite different, no?

[Jhhnn]

Does it? There was recently a CBO report, which was of course conveniently ignored by the media (but you know if it is favorable, how much we hear about CBO reports). Well, this CBO report declared that legalizing DACA people will add to the national deficit - that is cost the already indebted, heavily burdened tax payer even more. To be paid by who? By our innocent future generations, who are being selfishly fucked by their elders. You want to add even more to this rape? I am sure you are not a selfish person

And how does it benefit us that so many people who will make very good contributions to the society, are law abiding, don't break laws by entering and living illegally, that they continue to get fucked, while illegals get legalized...because...Hispanic vote for the Dems. How about the social costs? More and more areas become worse, schools get worse....unlike folks here, I am not rich, and I see it every day. We already have a large section of local born and bred population whose purpose in life.....well, if anybody finds out, let me know.

It does not even benefit the average Dem voter. For the affluent white rich liberals (many on this forum), it makes them feel better about themselves, that they are being part of something good and compassionate. But the people who benefit from it financially is the political elite of the Dems - the strategists, the lobbyists, the this, the that, the whole filthy political machine including of course the politicians.

You think rich white cynical uppity people like Pelosi or Schummer would even touch a poor Mexican, even with a pole? You think these are some open minded, loving, compassionate people? A typical politician is barely a human being. It is all about their own power and $$$$s. You guys are just pawns

The CBO estimated cost of integrating the dreamers is nothing compared to the cost of the GOP tax cuts for people who don't need tax cuts. $26B over 10 years vs at least $1.5T over 10 years. You're worried about change on the floor of the lobby while the vault is emptied out in the back.

Are you really arguing for much more legal immigration by going on about how people seeking that are getting screwed? I don't think so. That's certainly not the thrust of GOP policy. Amnesty for people already in this country has absolutely no effect on how applicants are treated. zero.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Does that not give an even more massive incentive to more people with their children to come here illegally? I do realize it is not an easy situation and perhaps there are no good answers.

Yes it does, and that is precisely what we want. Think about it, what are we incentivizing? People that are motivated to work hard to make a better life for their children, who are motivated to make those children law abiding and well educated members of our society. Could we really ask for a better group to incentivize to come to America? Is that not the dream we sell to the whole world?

 

[Moonbeam]

Does it? There was recently a CBO report, which was of course conveniently ignored by the media (but you know if it is favorable, how much we hear about CBO reports). Well, this CBO report declared that legalizing DACA people will add to the national deficit - that is cost the already indebted, heavily burdened tax payer even more. To be paid by who? By our innocent future generations, who are being selfishly fucked by their elders. You want to add even more to this rape? I am sure you are not a selfish person

And how does it benefit us that so many people who will make very good contributions to the society, are law abiding, don't break laws by entering and living illegally, that they continue to get fucked, while illegals get legalized...because...Hispanic vote for the Dems. How about the social costs? More and more areas become worse, schools get worse....unlike folks here, I am not rich, and I see it every day. We already have a large section of local born and bred population whose purpose in life.....well, if anybody finds out, let me know.

It does not even benefit the average Dem voter. For the affluent white rich liberals (many on this forum), it makes them feel better about themselves, that they are being part of something good and compassionate. But the people who benefit from it financially is the political elite of the Dems - the strategists, the lobbyists, the this, the that, the whole filthy political machine including of course the politicians.

You think rich white cynical uppity people like Pelosi or Schummer would even touch a poor Mexican, even with a pole? You think these are some open minded, loving, compassionate people? A typical politician is barely a human being. It is all about their own power and $$$$s. You guys are just pawns

The problem I have with being fair as you suffers the is that it would not be fair. I think you are confusing the moral imperative to be fair with your individual opinion as to what constitutes fairness. You hold tight to your opinion thinking that if you were wrong, fairness would no longer have moral force. That can’t happen. All that can happen is that your understanding of what fairness is would evolve. Nothing would be lost. Better understanding would just replace a less desirable one.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Yes it does, and that is precisely what we want. Think about it, what are we incentivizing? People that are motivated to work hard to make a better life for their children, who are motivated to make those children law abiding and well educated members of our society. Could we really ask for a better group to incentivize to come to America? Is that not the dream we sell to the whole world?

I agree with the fact that a lot of people who come here illegally are hard working people, don't have the sense of entitlement that we have here. They are certainly far better people than a large section of the local population. One of my friends says anyone who wants to come work here and support their family should be allowed to do so. That to earn an honest living is a good thing. I get that. I completely get that, and agree with that to a large extent.

But there needs to be a proper system for that. No party actually wants to stop illegal immigration (for Rs it is just a charade to drum up votes, if they were serious they would have passed a law implementing E verify and strictly implemented it). A large number of people like that benefits both of them. But the social and economic costs are borne by the average person.

 

[Noah Abrams]

The problem I have with being fair as you suffers the is that it would not be fair. I think you are confusing the moral imperative to be fair with your individual opinion as to what constitutes fairness. You hold tight to your opinion thinking that if you were wrong, fairness would no longer have moral force. That can’t happen. All that can happen is that your understanding of what fairness is would evolve. Nothing would be lost. Better understanding would just replace a less desirable one.

Right, I see what you are saying. So how would we define what is fair? Or does it depend on each person's individual understanding of what is fair?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Apparently because you didn't realize the absurdity of what you said.

There was nothing absurd about my post other than the knee jerk to it

 

[Younigue]

No Sir, what you are talking about are the inherent inevitable things in life, which are not fair. Someone's parent or abuse could be abusive, someone can get into an accident and so on. I am afraid it is you who is talking like a child here.

What I am talking about is fairness from a legal and judicial perspective. A judge and jury have to decide based on fairness, not on some wishy washy feelings. So legally speaking, is it fair to create laws which allow legalization of people who came here and live here illegally, while millions of law abiding aspiring legal immigrants get screwed? I await your reply.

Trump is trying to screw them all.

I maintain you're just being cruel in your stance. I think you think you're fighting the good fight... Hint: a little less dick oughta lock it.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Trump is trying to screw them all.

Yes his gang is hard at work in screwing aspiring legal immigrants. I am hearing first hand accounts. Not pretty.

 

[SMOGZINN]

But there needs to be a proper system for that. No party actually wants to stop illegal immigration (for Rs it is just a charade to drum up votes, if they were serious they would have passed a law implementing E verify and strictly implemented it). A large number of people like that benefits both of them. But the social and economic costs are borne by the average person.

I think this is a bit of 'bothsideism' slipping into your thought process. When I look at what different politicians actually do it seems that the Democrats at least are trying to find solutions that work and the Republicans are fearmongering to block it. We are having this discussion because Democrats were trying to find a solution and Republicans blocked it. If the Democrats solutions are not ideal it might just be because they have to find compromise with the Republicans.

 

[Jhhnn]

Trump is trying to screw them all.

I maintain you're just being cruel in your stance. I think you think you're fighting the good fight... Hint: a little less dick oughta lock it.

Dickishness has become a fashion statement & an affirmation of Faith on the Right.

We be fucking you, but only in a completely fair way.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think this is a bit of 'bothsideism' slipping into your thought process. When I look at what different politicians actually do it seems that the Democrats at least are trying to find solutions that work and the Republicans are fearmongering to block it. We are having this discussion because Democrats were trying to find a solution and Republicans blocked it. If the Democrats solutions are not ideal it might just be because they have to find compromise with the Republicans.

Slipping in? It's been his schtick for several pages & in general.

It's a GOP perma-issue. They have no solutions because they don't want any. It gets the base nicely irrational & voting for that good old trickle down feeling every two years. Keeping it screwed up isn't a bug, it's a feature they know how to exploit.

 

[brandonbull]

I disagree. The GOP mainstreaming batshit has turned the Democratic party from a party that idealized european style socialism into one that now spends more time simply championing facts, reason, science, and fighting the egregious anti-intellectualism and post fact culture that has pervaded the GOP.

They have their hands full fighting batshit insanity. If anything, the left has been pulled further right by all of this and are now the ones standing for constitutional rights, individual liberty (regardless of color, sex, orientation or religion) and, believe it or not, the right to private property.

As for parts of the country declining, that is what happens when you resist change and progress, deny science itself and tell people higher education is evil.

As I said, there is no room in this current climate for ANY idealism. Not when facts, reason, logic, basic human rights and fucking reality itself are on the line.

Not sure where to begin with this fantasy. More of the same nonsense from the liberal "elite" about how they have a monopoly on truth, logic and protecting constitutional rights. Dems should be compared to a NASCAR race because they just keep going to the left in an endless spiral. I guess if something is mostly true then liberals go ahead and round up to it being totally true. I think you are trying to mislead people on the "higher education is evil" comment.

 

[Noah Abrams]

I think this is a bit of 'bothsideism' slipping into your thought process. When I look at what different politicians actually do it seems that the Democrats at least are trying to find solutions that work and the Republicans are fearmongering to block it. We are having this discussion because Democrats were trying to find a solution and Republicans blocked it. If the Democrats solutions are not ideal it might just be because they have to find compromise with the Republicans.

The "solution" that has been proposed twice is actually no solution:

- Legalize the people here who are illegal
- Change the legal immigration system to more merit based than family based
- More border security, more shiny new gadgets, more money, more this, more that. All of which will result in illegal immigration becoming negligible (somehow)

We already tried that during Reagan and are back at the same, actually worse point now. How can anyone blame the conservatives of not trusting the word of someone who has shown ample proof of being unworthy of trust (the government)?

Seriously, is there anything that the government can do right? Transport/roads infrastructure? Police? Public schools? Heck even all our invasions - we go there, create chaos, misery, suffering, destruction, come out leaving the place in a far worse shape than if we had never touched it.

So to recap, it was never blocked. Because there never has been a reasonable solution.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Not sure where to begin with this fantasy. More of the same nonsense from the liberal "elite" about how they have a monopoly on truth, logic and protecting constitutional rights. Dems should be compared to a NASCAR race because they just keep going to the left in an endless spiral. I guess if something is mostly true then liberals go ahead and round up to it being totally true. I think you are trying to mislead people on the "higher education is evil" comment.

So, your argument is that liberals are only mostly championing facts, reason, science, and fighting the egregious anti-intellectualism and post fact culture that has pervaded the GOP, and that Jhhnn's statement is fantasy because they are not 100% doing so all the time?

 

[SMOGZINN]

The "solution" that has been proposed twice is actually no solution:

- Legalize the people here who are illegal
- Change the legal immigration system to more merit based than family based
- More border security, more shiny new gadgets, more money, more this, more that. All of which will result in illegal immigration becoming negligible (somehow)

We already tried that during Reagan and are back at the same, actually worse point now. How can anyone blame the conservatives of not trusting the word of someone who has shown ample proof of being unworthy of trust (the government)?

It is only worse now if you are dead set on defining it that way. The illegal immigrant problem is only a problem because some people want you to think it is. The only 'harm' that we can come up with is that they use up tax money with out paying their fair share, which is only because we refuse to legalize them and let them pay taxes. It is a problem we have created in order to have a problem to point at.

Seriously, is there anything that the government can do right? Transport/roads infrastructure? Police? Public schools? Heck even all our invasions - we go there, create chaos, misery, suffering, destruction, come out leaving the place in a far worse shape than if we had never touched it.

So to recap, it was never blocked. Because there never has been a reasonable solution.

Honestly the 'government can't do anything right' trope is so bad.
Transport/roads? We have an excellent highway system. Does it have problems? Sure, but it is still one of the best in the world.
Police? We are a very tranquil society. The police have problems, but those are literally first world problems. For the most part I can walk down any street in the US at any time of the day or night with very little chance of being in danger. Not something that can be said of the majority of the world.
Public Schools? Same thing. There are problems that we would like to fix, but it is really just a problem of 'it's pretty good, but we can do better'.
Overall our government does an excellent job. It is just not perfect, so we are still working on making it better.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Police? We are a very tranquil society. The police have problems, but those are literally first world problems. For the most part I can walk down any street in the US at any time of the day or night with very little chance of being in danger.

You must live in a very affluent area. There are literally hundreds of thousands of streets where that is not even remotely true. I can invite you to so many areas in my city alone and if you walk down like that, in no time, you won't even have the shirt on your back or your pants. Guaranteed.

But whether the area is safe or not has nothing to do with police. It is about the socio-economic status of those places. The bad areas have police too, plenty of them. Most of the time, they are in on the game. At least for things like gambling, prostitution and so on.

Talking about police and government, the so called war on drugs is another example of a self-perpetuating government racket. Make some soft drug illegal and see the money flow. There are so many entities who are profiting from it, all in bed with the government and politicians.

 

[Noah Abrams]

It is only worse now if you are dead set on defining it that way. The illegal immigrant problem is only a problem because some people want you to think it is. The only 'harm' that we can come up with is that they use up tax money with out paying their fair share, which is only because we refuse to legalize them and let them pay taxes. It is a problem we have created in order to have a problem to point at.

Ok so assume we solve this problem by legalizing them. Good. All wonderful. But do you think we will have to do the same again in 20-30 years? And then the same in the next 20-30 years? And so on. What will be the solution then?

 

[soulcougher73]

Our illegal immigration issue is basically like a bad parent who enables their childs bad behavior. The "I'm going to count to 3" parent that never does anything when they get to 3. And the child is not stupid. He learns this and continues his bad behavior. The parent who bails their child out of debt every 20 years because the wont put their foot down on rules and enforce them. Its en endless cycle because no one is willing to be a real parent and teach and discipline their child.

 

[Jaskalas]

Ok so assume we solve this problem by legalizing them. Good. All wonderful. But do you think we will have to do the same again in 20-30 years? And then the same in the next 20-30 years? And so on. What will be the solution then?

My solution is three fold.
1: Strong border with enough manpower to detect every crossing. Build a bigger wall anywhere people cross.
2: Amnesty. Completely. If they are otherwise criminal in some other fashion, then police should handle that as normal.
3: Deal harshly with employers who hire newly undocumented and/or abuse any employee with subpar pay, rights, or standards.

Restrict entry, assimilate our already permanent residents, and directly attack employers who benefit from second class citizens.

 

[Amused]

Not sure where to begin with this fantasy. More of the same nonsense from the liberal "elite" about how they have a monopoly on truth, logic and protecting constitutional rights. Dems should be compared to a NASCAR race because they just keep going to the left in an endless spiral. I guess if something is mostly true then liberals go ahead and round up to it being totally true. I think you are trying to mislead people on the "higher education is evil" comment.

The hilarity of your comment is I am center right and opposed Obama.

But yeah, paint the guy pointing out the batshit among the right as a leftist if it makes it easier to ignore the cancer of idiocracy that has taken over the right-wing.

 

[Jhhnn]

The "solution" that has been proposed twice is actually no solution:

- Legalize the people here who are illegal
- Change the legal immigration system to more merit based than family based
- More border security, more shiny new gadgets, more money, more this, more that. All of which will result in illegal immigration becoming negligible (somehow)

We already tried that during Reagan and are back at the same, actually worse point now. How can anyone blame the conservatives of not trusting the word of someone who has shown ample proof of being unworthy of trust (the government)?

Seriously, is there anything that the government can do right? Transport/roads infrastructure? Police? Public schools? Heck even all our invasions - we go there, create chaos, misery, suffering, destruction, come out leaving the place in a far worse shape than if we had never touched it.

So to recap, it was never blocked. Because there never has been a reasonable solution.

You have no answers, no honest suggestions as to how to resolve this issue. None whatsoever. Which makes it easy to criticize people who do. You mostly love spreading FUD about it.

There's a problematic reality & then there's the way you want it to be (whatever that is) with no path in between. Which means you need to change the way you want it to be to find solutions. Too easy, huh?

We need to ask ourselves what it is that the most heavily impacted Americans want to do about it, what they think is good for their communities. They clearly know more about it than we do. Any real solution would involve their cooperation & participation, obviously, otherwise it won't happen. There are, for example, ~1M illegals in greater LA, ~10% of the population. What does the other 90% want? Obviously not anything you're willing to accept, which is the real problem.

 

[Jhhnn]

My solution is three fold.
1: Strong border with enough manpower to detect every crossing. Build a bigger wall anywhere people cross.
2: Amnesty. Completely. If they are otherwise criminal in some other fashion, then police should handle that as normal.
3: Deal harshly with employers who hire newly undocumented and/or abuse any employee with subpar pay, rights, or standards.

Restrict entry, assimilate our already permanent residents, and directly attack employers who benefit from second class citizens.

Mostly right. We'll never detect every crossing nor is it necessary. We just need to keep it to a minimum.

 

[Younigue]

Dickishness has become a fashion statement & an affirmation of Faith on the Right.

We be fucking you, but only in a completely fair way.

Well at least they want the left/minorities/poor/women to just take their word for it that it's fair.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Ok so assume we solve this problem by legalizing them. Good. All wonderful. But do you think we will have to do the same again in 20-30 years? And then the same in the next 20-30 years? And so on. What will be the solution then?

The same. It has been working for about 200 years now, I see no reason it will not keep working.
The complete answer is that illegal immigrants are not, and never have been, a problem.

 

[SMOGZINN]

You must live in a very affluent area. There are literally hundreds of thousands of streets where that is not even remotely true. I can invite you to so many areas in my city alone and if you walk down like that, in no time, you won't even have the shirt on your back or your pants. Guaranteed.

But whether the area is safe or not has nothing to do with police. It is about the socio-economic status of those places. The bad areas have police too, plenty of them. Most of the time, they are in on the game. At least for things like gambling, prostitution and so on.

Talking about police and government, the so called war on drugs is another example of a self-perpetuating government racket. Make some soft drug illegal and see the money flow. There are so many entities who are profiting from it, all in bed with the government and politicians.

Ah. I see. You really believe there are dangerous places in America.
You need to expand your worldview.