"There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas"

[fskimospy]

If there is a "country" for the Palestinians, we know that Egypt and Trans-Jordan illegally occupied that territory.
And both countries attacked Israel while passing through that territory multiple times.

Yet, you seem to feel that Israel has no right to defend and retaliate against those that attacked her.

No, I think that Israel has no right to acquire territory in that way, as clearly defined by the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter, as verified by the ICJ.

Pretty simple, really.

Given that there is no county of Palestine; then the gripe should be from Egypt and Jordan. they were the countries that were to hold the land per the UN. but neither of those countries want anything to do with the Palestinians.

Actually, as per the UN Palestine is recognized as a state that is currently occupied by Israel. Seems like we should probably take it up with the occupying power, don't you think? This is probably especially important considering the numerous violations of international law that Israel is currently committing.

 

[Jaskalas]

No, I'm saying that it's bizarre to attempt to shift blame away from the illegal occupying power.

Out of the three countries mentioned, how many are currently violating the Geneva Conventions in relation to the occupied territories? Maybe we should start with the war crime guys first and then go from there.

What do you think?

I think the "occupied" land has more than one border. Israel does not control all of it, and this "occupation" you bemoan so much relies on Egypt and Jordan keeping the Palestinians isolated and starved.

They could end this situation today, they could allow an exodus of the innocent families who need not die in this war. They are just as guilty for keeping the lid on this volatile region as the pressure builds and it rains blood.

Palestinians are at war with Israel, do not look to an enemy for relief. Look to Egypt and Jordan.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Because people in the illegally occupied territories are resisting Israel's illegal occupation. I thought this was common knowledge.

Back to my original point, this is why Israel has ghettoized them; it inhibits their ability to stop Israel from effectively annexing disputed regions through settlements.

There are consequences to years and years of advocating and conducting terrorism. To imply that this as somehow acceptable or understandable behavior, by using the phrase "resisting Israel's illegal occupation", is ludicrous imo. Palestinian leaders have made some very bad choices and it's hurt their people tremendously.

 

[Abwx]

Are you seriously going to defend the Castro regime?

Yes, very seriously.

Are you seriously going to defend the Khmer Rouge?

Not the Khmers but Vietnam yes.

What you show is willful ignorance, nothing more. Palme supported communist regimes because he was a communist, like a lot of his party members was. I'm sure he opposed America's influence in the world, but the result of the actions taken by those he defended were far worse than anything America has ever done.

He was a social democrat and his project to get the pension funds getting 50% of the Stockholm stock exchange stocks was a brillant idea that was shamefully dismanteled by the following conservative governments that sold the stocks already purchased.

Look at all countries financial situation now, all are struglling to met the retirements fundings requirements while being indebted to death.

 

[cabri]

No, I think that Israel has no right to acquire territory in that way, as clearly defined by the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter, as verified by the ICJ.

Pretty simple, really.



Actually, as per the UN Palestine is recognized as a state that is currently occupied by Israel. Seems like we should probably take it up with the occupying power, don't you think? This is probably especially important considering the numerous violations of international law that Israel is currently committing.

And when was the state of Palestine recognized. Before or after '48/'67 or at all.

It declared independence 15 November 1988.
It was granted observer status 29 November 2012.

It has not been granted statehood as a country by the UN at the present time.

Israel has had control of the land as a result of the wars with the COUNTRIES of Egypt and Jordan. Neither have requested that this territory be returned to them and they actually refused.

All the BS that has gone on with respect to the borders always seem to revolve around the '67 borders; apparently land that Israel obtained in conflict with Egypt and Jordan prior to them is acceptable.

So therefore there is some hypocrisy with regards of land taken under conquest.

 

[fskimospy]

There are consequences to years and years of advocating and conducting terrorism. To imply that this as somehow acceptable or understandable behavior, by using the phrase "resisting Israel's illegal occupation", is ludicrous imo. Palestinian leaders have made some very bad choices and it's hurt their people tremendously.

Whether it's acceptable or not is one thing, but it's obviously understandable. It's the same reaction that occupied populations have taken all over the world since the dawn of time. Are you saying that resisting military occupation with violence is unacceptable? I find blaming the oppressed for their oppression to be pretty awful.

Palestinian leaders have made plenty of bad decisions over the years. In no way does that excuse Israel's behavior in any way. In the end they are the ones doing the occupying, so in the end they are the ones who are responsible for its results. Speaking of that, what obligation does Israel have to stop illegally occupying these territories? It would be ludicrous to imply that such behavior is acceptable either.

 

[fskimospy]

And when was the state of Palestine recognized. Before or after '48/'67 or at all.

It declared independence 15 November 1988.
It was granted observer status 29 November 2012.

It has not been granted statehood as a country by the UN at the present time.

Israel has had control of the land as a result of the wars with the COUNTRIES of Egypt and Jordan. Neither have requested that this territory be returned to them and they actually refused.

All the BS that has gone on with respect to the borders always seem to revolve around the '67 borders; apparently land that Israel obtained in conflict with Egypt and Jordan prior to them is acceptable.

So therefore there is some hypocrisy with regards of land taken under conquest.

This is incorrect. Palestine is recognized by the UN as a "non-member observer state".

 

[fskimospy]

I think the "occupied" land has more than one border. Israel does not control all of it, and this "occupation" you bemoan so much relies on Egypt and Jordan keeping the Palestinians isolated and starved.

They could end this situation today, they could allow an exodus of the innocent families who need not die in this war. They are just as guilty for keeping the lid on this volatile region as the pressure builds and it rains blood.

Palestinians are at war with Israel, do not look to an enemy for relief. Look to Egypt and Jordan.

So by not allowing a flood of refugees from areas devastated by military occupation they are just as guilty as those who devastated the areas and militarily occupy them.

That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Whether it's acceptable or not is one thing, but it's obviously understandable. It's the same reaction that occupied populations have taken all over the world since the dawn of time. Are you saying that resisting military occupation with violence is unacceptable? I find blaming the oppressed for their oppression to be pretty awful.

So rocket attacks and suicide bombings that intentionally target civilians are understandable in your opinion. Wow. Just wow.

Palestinian leaders have made plenty of bad decisions over the years. In no way does that excuse Israel's behavior in any way. In the end they are the ones doing the occupying, so in the end they are the ones who are responsible for its results. Speaking of that, what obligation does Israel have to stop illegally occupying these territories? It would be ludicrous to imply that such behavior is acceptable either.

I have no love for Israel as they have plenty of blood on their hands...however, I find their behavior to be much more understandable than those who rationalize suicide bombings at weddings and restaurants.

 

[Abwx]

So therefore there is some hypocrisy with regards of land taken under conquest.

A LOT...Because sovereignty over a land doesnt mean that confiscating private property is legal on these lands, actualy it s illegal under international laws, the very laws that established israel as a sovereign state.

So either you abide by thoses laws or if you dont you cant no more claim israel to be a legitimate state.

 

[Abwx]

So rocket attacks and suicide bombings that intentionally target civilians are understandable in your opinion. Wow. Just wow.


I have no love for Israel as they have plenty of blood on their hands...however, I find their behavior to be much more understandable than those who rationalize suicide bombings at weddings and restaurants.

First operation of Hamas was in 1993 to target a military, an israeli and a palestinian civilian were killed in the process.

Next bloody event was Baruch Goldstein killing 30 palestininas while they were praying, he was killed by palestinians, so the israeli started suicide operations, isnt it.

It s only after this massacre that the Hamas started targeting civilians.

Check your history.

Btw, to this day extremists jews by the hundreds are doing pilgrimage at the tomb of this murderer.

 

[fskimospy]

So rocket attacks and suicide bombings that intentionally target civilians are understandable in your opinion. Wow. Just wow.

To your expectation that this occupation would be different than any other one in basically the entire history of humanity I would say... Wow. Just wow.

The French and Russian resistances in WW2 attacked civilians. US colonials attacked loyalist civilians in the US revolutionary war. Confederate partisans attacked pro-union civilians during the Civil War, etc, etc. The cases where the occupied have not attacked civilians of their occupiers is from lack of capability, not lack of desire.

At some point when you look at consistent behavior over hundreds and/or thousands of years it should probably be understandable that it will happen next time too.

I have no love for Israel as they have plenty of blood on their hands...however, I find their behavior to be much more understandable than those who rationalize suicide bombings at weddings and restaurants.

Why is it more understandable?

 

[PingviN]

He was a social democrat and his project to get the pension funds getting 50% of the Stockholm stock exchange stocks was a brillant idea that was shamefully dismanteled by the following conservative governments that sold the stocks already purchased.

Look at all countries financial situation now, all are struglling to met the retirements fundings requirements while being indebted to death.

And that would what, counter-act the support of the Khmer Rouge and the forced sterilizations?

Sorry buddy, but no. I've got your ideology pinned now, no need for further discussion. Once someone starts defending Castro, you know they're not put together correctly.

 

[Harabec]

Well, Jordan told the people of the West Bank to shove it and said it did not want the land back anymore - so we got stuck with it.
There's no one to return the area to. When the palestinians decide to finally make a country out of it, cool. (Hey I'll support it, as would most people around here)

In a similar fashion, Egypt said "LOL YOU CAN KEEP EM HAHA" about the Gaza strip as well.

Sometimes I wonder about the "caring and loving" Arab world abandoning them completely while crying from afar and supplying...mostly weapons.

 

[Abwx]

And that would what, counter-act the support of the Khmer Rouge and the forced sterilizations?

Sorry buddy, but no. I've got your ideology pinned now, no need for further discussion. Once someone starts defending Castro, you know they're not put together correctly.

For you it s all black or white, but does Palme have blood on hands.?

 

[shortylickens]

Aside from the fact they're both clinging to thousand year old grudges.

 

[Zaap]

Classic image pretty much sums up the moral equivalence of the two sides.

 

[werepossum]

If there is a "country" for the Palestinians, we know that Egypt and Trans-Jordan illegally occupied that territory.
And both countries attacked Israel while passing through that territory multiple times.

Yet, you seem to feel that Israel has no right to defend and retaliate against those that attacked her.

Given that there is no county of Palestine; then the gripe should be from Egypt and Jordan. they were the countries that were to hold the land per the UN. but neither of those countries want anything to do with the Palestinians.

In fairness to Jordan, they did open up their nation to the Palestinians. Didn't turn out well for them as the Palestinians attempted to take over Jordan. Didn't turn out well for the Palestinians either as Jordan, like Israel, proved much more adept at killing than were the Palestinians.

To your expectation that this occupation would be different than any other one in basically the entire history of humanity I would say... Wow. Just wow.

The French and Russian resistances in WW2 attacked civilians. US colonials attacked loyalist civilians in the US revolutionary war. Confederate partisans attacked pro-union civilians during the Civil War, etc, etc. The cases where the occupied have not attacked civilians of their occupiers is from lack of capability, not lack of desire.

At some point when you look at consistent behavior over hundreds and/or thousands of years it should probably be understandable that it will happen next time too.

Why is it more understandable?

Interesting. It's acceptable for the Palestinians to intentionally kill civilians because it's always been done that way, yet not acceptable for the Israelis to accidentally kill civilians in the process of trying to kill legitimate terrorist targets. Some serious circular reasoning going on there, declare Israel the bad guys and then justify everything done against them.

 

[fskimospy]

Interesting. It's acceptable for the Palestinians to intentionally kill civilians because it's always been done that way, yet not acceptable for the Israelis to accidentally kill civilians in the process of trying to kill legitimate terrorist targets. Some serious circular reasoning going on there, declare Israel the bad guys and then justify everything done against them.

I'm not sure if you know what circular reasoning is, nor did you appear to read my post very well. I made no statement as to what was acceptable, I simply said that in light of the entirety of human history such things have to eventually be viewed as understandable. (unless we are just claiming that human nature cannot be understood)

But yes, I do tend to view the actions of those resisting an occupation differently than the actions of those attempting to perpetuate an occupation. I guess I'm just funny that way and your mileage may vary.

 

[Abwx]

Classic image pretty much sums up the moral equivalence of the two sides.

I would rather assume that it sums up a brain that is addicted to zionists kool aid for the low IQ people....or untermenschen, who knows since you support this concept, why wouldnt it apply to you as well.?..

 

[Abwx]

I'm not sure if you know what circular reasoning is, nor did you appear to read my post very well. I made no statement as to what was acceptable, I simply said that in light of the entirety of human history such things have to eventually be viewed as understandable. (unless we are just claiming that human nature cannot be understood)

But yes, I do tend to view the actions of those resisting an occupation differently than the actions of those attempting to perpetuate an occupation. I guess I'm just funny that way and your mileage may vary.

As an USan he s inconsciensously refering to the average joe collective memory wich is built on WW2 with Japan bombing Pearl Harbor and the US being rightous and fully legitimated to retaliate with all possible means, although the use of nuclear weapons is fairly discutable, never he will remind the time when the europeans colonised the lands of the native americans in all illegality according to "modern standards".

Now the palestinians have no means and they are facing a nuclear fascist state supported, or rather having as puppet, the most powerfull state of the our times, never in history there have been such a gigantic assymmetry between the victim and his persecutor.

The People of Palestine deserve full admiration and are true freedom fighters.

 

[werepossum]

As an USan he s inconsciensously refering to the average joe collective memory wich is built on WW2 with Japan bombing Pearl Harbor and the US being rightous and fully legitimated to retaliate with all possible means, although the use of nuclear weapons is fairly discutable, never he will remind the time when the europeans colonised the lands of the native americans in all illegality according to "modern standards".

Now the palestinians have no means and they are facing a nuclear fascist state supported, or rather having as puppet, the most powerfull state of the our times, never in history there have been such a gigantic assymmetry between the victim and his persecutor.

The People of Palestine deserve full admiration and are true freedom fighters.

On the contrary, I readily admit that the white men who formed the United States committed genocide on the red men who previously occupied the territory. Note that unlike the "genocide" against the Palestinians the Native Americans did not double their numbers but were driven nigh to extinction. I don't think we can directly compare the actions of Israel though; if nations band together and attack you and in doing so lose land, I do not accept their right to deed that lost land to the enemy of their enemy.

Some Palestinians deserve admiration for retaining their humanity amidst horrific conditions. Other Palestinians - those who lob rockets into Israel, fire mortars into Israel, raise their children to put on explosive vests and detonate themselves in Israeli cafes and schools and markets, those who teach their children Jihad rather than useful skills - deserve only to be put down like any other rabid animals.

 

[Zaap]

I really hate it when Native Americans launch rocket attacks from their reservations into neighboring cities. And it sucks when they send their children strapped down with hidden bombs onto the crowded Las Vegas strip and blow themselves up....

But of course they're justified in doing so because of wrongs that happened way back when...


Oh wait. I forgot. Native Americans don't do any of those things.

 

[Abwx]

On the contrary, I readily admit that the white men who formed the United States committed genocide on the red men who previously occupied the territory. Note that unlike the "genocide" against the Palestinians the Native Americans did not double their numbers but were driven nigh to extinction. I don't think we can directly compare the actions of Israel though; if nations band together and attack you and in doing so lose land, I do not accept their right to deed that lost land to the enemy of their enemy.

Native americans where overhelmed by a continual immigration of extra americans that was way more numerous than the jewish immigration in Palestine and that s why the palestinian are not extinct, it has nothing to do with a supposed ziàoçnist mercy, heck, you are just buying the zionist kool aid propaganda, thoses fascist fully know that should they do a genocide this would create a precedent juridicamy speaking and that this fate could be applied to them in all fairness and legality, that s the calculus they made, so yes we cant compare but not the way your think.

Some Palestinians deserve admiration for retaining their humanity amidst horrific conditions. Other Palestinians - those who lob rockets into Israel, fire mortars into Israel, raise their children to put on explosive vests and detonate themselves in Israeli cafes and schools and markets, those who teach their children Jihad rather than useful skills - deserve only to be put down like any other rabid animals.

Palestinians as a whole, safe the traitors and thoses who do not respect civil laws, i mean those who would stole at gun point let say a car, but thoses who defend their rights when the fascist usurpatory state start killing them with massive operations, thoses ones are real men and they are more men than any men of any army, because the difference in means would be like the native americans against an army of our times.

 

[werepossum]

Native americans where overhelmed by a continual immigration of extra americans that was way more numerous than the jewish immigration in Palestine and that s why the palestinian are not extinct, it has nothing to do with a supposed ziàoçnist mercy, heck, you are just buying the zionist kool aid propaganda, thoses fascist fully know that should they do a genocide this would create a precedent juridicamy speaking and that this fate could be applied to them in all fairness and legality, that s the calculus they made, so yes we cant compare but not the way your think.

Palestinians as a whole, safe the traitors and thoses who do not respect civil laws, i mean those who would stole at gun point let say a car, but thoses who defend their rights when the fascist usurpatory state start killing them with massive operations, thoses ones are real men and they are more men than any men of any army, because the difference in means would be like the native americans against an army of our times.

Personally I refuse to define manliness as using civilians as shields while launching rockets and mortars at other civilians, or even manfully blowing oneself up to manfully turn Jewish babies into red goo that must be scraped off walls. That is the very antithesis of manliness.