The Ultimate SM3.0 Game Thread

[MisterChief]

Originally posted by: munky


I would get an ati card, because I dont have faith in nvidia's ability to deliver in practice what they promise on paper.

ATI had/still has that exact same problem.

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: MisterChief

They aren't new effects per se, they are SM2.0 effects but SM3.0 has enhancements that allow these effects to be rendered more efficiently, which in *theory* should allow SM3.0 enabled cards to use effects that simply would cripple SM2.0 only cards. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time seeing where this is the case, and Riddick's results really concern me as it seems that maybe today's cards simply aren't powerful enough, *even with* SM3.0 to use the so far unused parts of the SM2.0 spec.

I'm glad to see that Riddick is finally getting the attention it deserves. Some parts of SM2.0 are still unused? I find that ackward, seeing that the standard has been around for quite some time.

Maybe you can help me with something. I've tried Riddick on the XBox and on the PC and I find his movement to be loose and just unusual. Am I imagining things? Will I eventually get used to it? I'm really trying to give the game a fair shot as everyone seems to like it.

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: MisterChief

Originally posted by: munky


I would get an ati card, because I dont have faith in nvidia's ability to deliver in practice what they promise on paper.

ATI had/still has that exact same problem.

That's 100% on point, the difference between paper and reality is what I'm trying to discover in this thread. This happens practically every generation as certain features are touted and some get dropped permanently, some aren't useful until later generations, and a few are actually useful and used in that generation of games.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: MisterChief

Originally posted by: munky


I would get an ati card, because I dont have faith in nvidia's ability to deliver in practice what they promise on paper.

ATI had/still has that exact same problem.

If you're talking about the short supply of cards, then you're right. In terms of the actual hardware doing what ati said it does, I don't see that problem, maybe you can give me some examples.

 

[Bar81]

One example that springs to mind is Trueform. It's still an option in the control panel but it's useless.

 

[MisterChief]

Originally posted by: Bar81

Originally posted by: MisterChief

They aren't new effects per se, they are SM2.0 effects but SM3.0 has enhancements that allow these effects to be rendered more efficiently, which in *theory* should allow SM3.0 enabled cards to use effects that simply would cripple SM2.0 only cards. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time seeing where this is the case, and Riddick's results really concern me as it seems that maybe today's cards simply aren't powerful enough, *even with* SM3.0 to use the so far unused parts of the SM2.0 spec.

I'm glad to see that Riddick is finally getting the attention it deserves. Some parts of SM2.0 are still unused? I find that ackward, seeing that the standard has been around for quite some time.

Maybe you can help me with something. I've tried Riddick on the XBox and on the PC and I find his movement to be loose and just unusual. Am I imagining things? Will I eventually get used to it? I'm really trying to like this game as everyone seems to like it.

I didn't say playabilty would improve. It's the visuals I'm obsessed with. I'm planning on a future in the game industry, so anything eye-popping interests me greatly.

I still haven't gotten used to the movement in Riddick. Doom 3 and HL-2 feel smoother than ant FPS/ action game I've played before, so I also find the control hard to get used to. And nobody flame me for making a D3/HL-2 comparrison.

 

[MisterChief]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: MisterChief

Originally posted by: munky


I would get an ati card, because I dont have faith in nvidia's ability to deliver in practice what they promise on paper.

ATI had/still has that exact same problem.

If you're talking about the short supply of cards, then you're right. In terms of the actual hardware doing what ati said it does, I don't see that problem, maybe you can give me some examples.

I'm sorry. I ment actual physical supply. I fully agree that ATI puts forth what it says it will do.

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: Bar81
One example that springs to mind is Trueform. It's still an option in the control panel but it's useless.

HL2 supports it.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Bar81
One example that springs to mind is Trueform. It's still an option in the control panel but it's useless.

Yeah, but I don't know if trueform causes a big performance hit, or developers just didn't use it for whatever reason. The only game I know that supports it is Wolfenstein, but when I played it, I didnt have a card that supported the feature, so I cant comment on it.

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: MisterChief

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: MisterChief

Originally posted by: munky


I would get an ati card, because I dont have faith in nvidia's ability to deliver in practice what they promise on paper.

ATI had/still has that exact same problem.

If you're talking about the short supply of cards, then you're right. In terms of the actual hardware doing what ati said it does, I don't see that problem, maybe you can give me some examples.

I'm sorry. I ment actual physical supply. I fully agree that ATI puts forth what it says it will do.

There is no doubt that the X800/X850 series are the dominant cards over the 6800 series.

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Bar81
One example that springs to mind is Trueform. It's still an option in the control panel but it's useless.

Yeah, but I don't know if trueform causes a big performance hit, or developers just didn't use it for whatever reason. The only game I know that supports it is Wolfenstein, but when I played it, I didnt have a card that supported the feature, so I cant comment on it.

It improves both image quality and performance.

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: Noob

Originally posted by: Bar81
One example that springs to mind is Trueform. It's still an option in the control panel but it's useless.

HL2 supports it.

Really? I'm going to have to check that box then after all this time

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Bar81
One example that springs to mind is Trueform. It's still an option in the control panel but it's useless.

Yeah, but I don't know if trueform causes a big performance hit, or developers just didn't use it for whatever reason. The only game I know that supports it is Wolfenstein, but when I played it, I didnt have a card that supported the feature, so I cant comment on it.

Well, then I stand corrected on the trueform.

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: Noob

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Bar81
One example that springs to mind is Trueform. It's still an option in the control panel but it's useless.

Yeah, but I don't know if trueform causes a big performance hit, or developers just didn't use it for whatever reason. The only game I know that supports it is Wolfenstein, but when I played it, I didnt have a card that supported the feature, so I cant comment on it.

It improves both image quality and performance.

Well, looks like I'm gonna have to read up on it. Thanks for the info.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Noob

Originally posted by: Bar81
One example that springs to mind is Trueform. It's still an option in the control panel but it's useless.

HL2 supports it.

Hmmm, I'll have to try it out then

 

[BFG10K]

Doom 3 supports SM 3.0 as well

To my knowledge the ARB2 path is SM 2.0 although it would certainly be possible to add an SM 3.0 path that collapsed the ARB2 path into fewer passes.

The only game I know that supports it is Wolfenstein, but when I played it, I didnt have a card that supported the feature, so I cant comment on it.

Serious Sam also supports it. The problem with Truform is that it degrades performance and doesn't really provide much IQ benefit, especially on R3xx hardware and later which have to emulate it via vertex shaders.

It's just easier to add more polygons and let everyone benefit.

Looks like I was wrong, ATI does deliver.

I'd argue that the number of SM 3.0 titles is greater than the number of Truform titles.

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Thanks for that informative post

Facts speak louder than trolls I'm afraid.

You provide NO evidence to back up any of your claims.

You must have me mistaken for you.

If you're going to prove (a) point(s), back it up, it's not my job to do YOUR homework for you.

:roll:

I see, so you can produce a troll thread and it's our job to disprove you? I'm sorry but it just doesn't work that way. Your entire debating paradigm shows an alarming lack of understanding on your part.

As to your "non"claims what's the point of SM3.0 if the added speed STILL doesn't allow the 6800 to eclipse the X800.

Another strawman. You really need to get out of the hay barn and into the sunshine.

Simply stating that it allows looping means nothing in reality, unless it gives the user some tangible benefit in relation to the X800.

And it does. Look at FC benchmarks (for example) running under SM 2.0 and SM 3.0 and you'll see the NV4x series edges ATi under SM 3.0 in some situations but under SM 2.0 they were usually always outclassed.

As for SM 3.0 in Painkiller, the fact that you can't reproduce it is your problem, not mine.

added shader effects when implemented cripple performance on current generation cards

Except you don't have to add new effects to see benefits from SM 3.0.

Wow, thanks for all that evidence. You really "proved" your point. And calling me names really shows that you have the upper hand in this "debate"

 

[hans030390]

Yeah i read it does too....and i already said it looks better and improves performance!!! (not about HL2, i havent seen anything on that yet)

I actually think that 6xxx series will be able to run next gen games because there will be tons of optimization in the code...i heard that when the 6800 first came out, ES4: oblivion was getting a good 5-10fps....then again it is being programed mainly for Xbox2, not PC...but it will be on PC, and i KNOW that bethesda will optimize it for pc to make it run better on 6xxx cards...

wait...what was this thread about?

 

[BFG10K]

And calling me names

Where did I call you names?

really shows that you have the upper hand in this "debate"

A debate implies an argument; in this case there really isn't one.

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Looks like I was wrong, ATI does deliver.

I'd argue that the number of SM 3.0 titles is greater than the number of Truform titles.

It probably is, but you missed the point of the subdiscussion entirely which was whether ATi's touted features actually are implemented as nvidia apparently has a history of touting a feature and then not enabling it/having it work correctly (at least that's what I gleaned from the poster's comments.)

 

[Bar81]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

And calling me names

Where did I call you names?

really shows that you have the upper hand in this "debate"

A debate implies an argument; in this case there really isn't one.

Wow, you're a piece of work. You don't know where you called me names, try rereading your post above.

And that's exactly my point, debate implies a discussion and I would argue that there should be some logic/factual basis to the points, which you have so far not provided as opposed to the facts put forth in the OP.

 

[BFG10K]

It probably is, but you missed the point of the subdiscussion entirely which was whether ATi's touted features actually are implemented

To date I'd say SM 3.0 implementation has outclassed Truform implementation.

as nvidia apparently has a history of touting a feature and then not enabling it/having it work correctly (at least that's what I gleaned from the poster's comments.)

Maybe...but ATi certainly has a history of hiding features, like SM 2.0b which nobody knew about until it magically appeared after FC 1.2 was available.

 

[imported_Noob]

-SM 3.0 makes no image quality difference.
-X800's have better AA and AF (perfromance and image quality)
-TruFrom improves image quality and performance.

 

[hans030390]

seriously...what is this thread about???? i completely forget and everyone is talking about random stuff relating to SM3.0!!!

 

[Bar81]

To date, I'd say that wasn't the point of what we were talking about, although I would agree with you, but then considering that Trueform has three games that support it, saying SM3.0 outclasses it is like saying you can run faster than a paraplegic.