the truth about abortion

[biostud]

I can't stand seeing any kind of operations and yet I support them beeing done. I would prefer if people used contraceptives, but sometimes they don't and I fully support the right to abortion. Better information about using contraceptives is the way to reduce abortions.

 

[eits]

this video isn't slanted at all

:roll:

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: biostud
Better information about using contraceptives is the way to reduce abortions.

Unless of course you view use of contraceptions is another form of aborion *cough* Catholics *cough*

 

[eits]

the video fails to mention that often times, to save the life of the mother, fetuses are aborted. also, it fails to mention that women who are raped and become pregnant tend not to want to carry a baby to term (imagine that).

another thing is that they forgot to mention all the women who end up with septicemia and bleed to death by performing abortions on themselves whenever they don't have a sterile clinic to get it done safely.

just because something becomes illegal doesn't mean people won't still do it or find a way around it.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: homercles337
Because scientifically/medically it doesnt. The cerebral cortex is what makes us a person, it gives personality, thought, emotion, pain, fear, everything that defines us as a person. If some person "of the cloth" tells you that personhood begins at conception why is your date of birth not ~9 months earlier? Personhood is what makes you a person. A mass of cells is not a person. How could you disagree with this?

No, this is how YOU define a person. This is hardly a definitive definition, and even most who support abortion rights would disagree with it as definitive.

How is that not a "definitive definition"? Show us an example of a "definitive definition" used by those who support abortion rights.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: eits
the video fails to mention that often times, to save the life of the mother, fetuses are aborted. also, it fails to mention that women who are raped and become pregnant tend not to want to carry a baby to term (imagine that).

another thing is that they forgot to mention all the women who end up with septicemia and bleed to death by performing abortions on themselves whenever they don't have a sterile clinic to get it done safely.

just because something becomes illegal doesn't mean people won't still do it or find a way around it.

Well according to some "people" in this thread, they deserve their suffering and brutal painless deaths.

 

[Aisengard]

Propoganda. Shock and fear into submission. These people are either gullible, or have morals less than the worst slave plantation owners.

There is so much more to abortion than "killing babies." That term alone is ignorant, and misinformed, and quite frankly only used by the ignorant and misinformed, or by the people with a political agenda.

Abortion is not a problem in this country. People don't have abortions willy nilly like these idiots keep suggesting. "Oops, another baby, another abortion. What's that, 12 this month?" Doesn't happen. Having an abortion is, to my knowledge, an extremely difficult thing to do, mentally, for a woman, and many are probably scarred for life. People don't have abortions like it's some recreational activity. It is a very tough decision to make, and one the government should not make for them. God knows we need less government in our lives, after the NSA wiretapping (or as Bush likes to call it, the Terrorist Network wiretapping).

The fact is that abortion rates in the country have gone down since Roe v. Wade took effect all those 30 years ago. When Bush says that there are less abortions in the country than there were 10 years ago, it's just a continued slide, as contraceptives become more reliable and people do too.

So stop all this nonsense about abortion. It was decided on long ago by people much smarter than you that it is constitutional. Want to force your own morals on people? Start a religion. Call it, the anti-abortionist religion. Heck, it's almost made for you.

 

[Phantasm82]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: Agman
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that IT DOES EXIST as a person.

Because scientifically/medically it doesnt. The cerebral cortex is what makes us a person, it gives personality, thought, emotion, pain, fear, everything that defines us as a person. If some person "of the cloth" tells you that personhood begins at conception why is your date of birth not ~9 months earlier? Personhood is what makes you a person. A mass of cells is not a person. How could you disagree with this?

Perhaps he equates the *potential* for the development of cortical activity with life, rather than defining it through its mere presence or absence. In that sense, after conception has taken place, embryonic/fetal development will occur and the cortical activity that you equate with "personhood" is the inevitable consequence (assuming no complications during pregnancy). At this point, you have all the DNA you're ever going to have (distinguishing it from a haploid sperm or egg) All that's needed are nutrients, and time.

I don't cleave to a lot of Agman's views, but in this, I can see some reasoning behind what he's saying. In no way am I trying to put words into his mouth, however, so if you do feel differently, I'm interested in hearing other reasons.

Also, I don't understand your meaning when you stated that "personhood is what makes you a person" is like saying "redness is what makes something red." It seems a bit circular to me, but I might be missing something in the previous 8 pages of posts. Furthermore, I don't think that scientifically or medically we have defined what a person is. Maybe Meuge, the resident MD-Ph.D. candidate could further enlighten us on the AMA's position (or any medical body's position for that matter). To be even more nit-picky (sorry, I swear I'm borderline OCD), birth is the separation of the fetus from the mother, hence your date of birth can never be your date of conception.

Just my rambles. Feel free to ignore

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: biostud
Better information about using contraceptives is the way to reduce abortions.

Unless of course you view use of contraceptions is another form of aborion *cough* Catholics *cough*

Shens. Maybe you should learn your ass from a hole in the ground before you try to disparage someone else's religion.

 

[Polish3d]

another thing is that they forgot to mention all the women who end up with septicemia and bleed to death by performing abortions on themselves whenever they don't have a sterile clinic to get it done safely.
.

Well, if you approach it from the premise that a baby inside the womb should be considered a human being, (which is the only reason those who wish to ban abortion wish to do so) than one is not likely to find the idea of a mother suffering side effects from murdering her own child a sympathetic situation.

Your argument will only appeal to those who don't wish to ban abortion due to a belief that a fetus is not a human being. Those who do wish to ban it believe it is a human being and thus are not sympathetic to the notion that killing humans should be kept legal otherwise the murderer may attempt it illegally and become ill doing so.

 

[Udel]

Abortion is wrong, period.

/From a Liberal.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I really Love the knowledge and witicism expressed by all concerned on this thread!

 

[m316foley]

Originally posted by: Udel
Abortion is wrong, period.

/From a Liberal.

Wow, so if something is put up by a liberal/you, you must be 100% correct. Arrogance to the extreme eh?

As far as abortion is concerned... it's none of your damn business! Honestly, let's cut he Pollitcally Correct BS and get down to the point. Obviously, most people who want to have abortions:

a.) Don't want to have a kid
b.) Don't want to raise a kid
c.) Aren't ready at all
d.) Were raped
e.) Have a carear that takes priority
f.) Any other reason

Now, let's look at this. Honestly, do you really think any of these people (let's assume it's even a couple) could raise a kid well?

Let's see, put em up for adoption! You know, we don't have enough kids out there for that! Ever seen the process it takes, not alone to mention the costs of adopting a child? I have, it's not cheap and it's not easy.

Now, as far as any of these kids (who, if abortion were legal) becoming geniuses. Come on now. If a parent doesn't want to be a parent, then things aren't going to go well. When was the last time you heard of a kid who came from a broken home, curing any disease? That's right, none. Stop fooling yourself. Oh wait, we might have another 50 cent roaming the streets....

Let's take a whack at religion being involved in politics. Yes, let's teach abstinence, abstinence, abstinence! Obviously, it doesn't work. Try a new method. Informing the public as to same methods of having sex WHILE teaching abstinence. Abstinence works for some, but obviously doesn't work for all. If you have a personal belief that God/Gods/Creator/Bob doesn't want you to have an abortion. Then don't. However, what gives you the right to tell others what to do? There is a thing called "separation of church and state."

Next on to a logical view of things. The reason we have this great country, is freedom. Yes, freedom does have its limitations, however, killing something that hasn't even been born yet equaling murder? Riiiiiight.... A woman has the right to do whatever she wants with her body as she sees fit.

Next topic: What the hell is with all these white, upper-class, men deciding on what women can or can't do with their bodies? It's a personal choice, not a choice left up to people who wouldn't be able to even live in that real-life scenario. Get real. If you really want to outlaw abortion that badly, then protest for a direct democratic vote by all the women ages 18 and above. Then, we'll see who comes out on top.

/rant

My personal view: Yes, I believe in God. Do I think abortions are right? No. However, I live in this great country called the United States of America, where my PERSONAL and MORAL ideas, do not come into play when it comes to doing what is best for the country and its people. Therefore, I believe that the country should be Pro-choice.

 

[phisrow]

Why yes I can.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: m316foley
My personal view: Yes, I believe in God. Do I think abortions are right? No. However, I live in this great country called the United States of America, where my PERSONAL and MORAL ideas, do not come into play when it comes to doing what is best for the country and its people. Therefore, I believe that the country should be Pro-choice.

Why legislate against murder? Stealing? Rape? Vandalism? Do you support the repealing of all such legislation? If not, then you're fundamentally inconsistent in your views and are making an exception for abortion. Law is the restriction of personal freedoms, which always result from someone's personal beliefs.

 

[Agrooreo]

Originally posted by: m316foley

Originally posted by: Udel
Abortion is wrong, period.

/From a Liberal.

Wow, so if something is put up by a liberal/you, you must be 100% correct. Arrogance to the extreme eh?

As far as abortion is concerned... it's none of your damn business! Honestly, let's cut he Pollitcally Correct BS and get down to the point. Obviously, most people who want to have abortions:

a.) Don't want to have a kid
b.) Don't want to raise a kid
c.) Aren't ready at all
d.) Were raped
e.) Have a carear that takes priority
f.) Any other reason

Now, let's look at this. Honestly, do you really think any of these people (let's assume it's even a couple) could raise a kid well?

Let's see, put em up for adoption! You know, we don't have enough kids out there for that! Ever seen the process it takes, not alone to mention the costs of adopting a child? I have, it's not cheap and it's not easy.

Now, as far as any of these kids (who, if abortion were legal) becoming geniuses. Come on now. If a parent doesn't want to be a parent, then things aren't going to go well. When was the last time you heard of a kid who came from a broken home, curing any disease? That's right, none. Stop fooling yourself. Oh wait, we might have another 50 cent roaming the streets....

Let's take a whack at religion being involved in politics. Yes, let's teach abstinence, abstinence, abstinence! Obviously, it doesn't work. Try a new method. Informing the public as to same methods of having sex WHILE teaching abstinence. Abstinence works for some, but obviously doesn't work for all. If you have a personal belief that God/Gods/Creator/Bob doesn't want you to have an abortion. Then don't. However, what gives you the right to tell others what to do? There is a thing called "separation of church and state."

Next on to a logical view of things. The reason we have this great country, is freedom. Yes, freedom does have its limitations, however, killing something that hasn't even been born yet equaling murder? Riiiiiight.... A woman has the right to do whatever she wants with her body as she sees fit.

Next topic: What the hell is with all these white, upper-class, men deciding on what women can or can't do with their bodies? It's a personal choice, not a choice left up to people who wouldn't be able to even live in that real-life scenario. Get real. If you really want to outlaw abortion that badly, then protest for a direct democratic vote by all the women ages 18 and above. Then, we'll see who comes out on top.

/rant

My personal view: Yes, I believe in God. Do I think abortions are right? No. However, I live in this great country called the United States of America, where my PERSONAL and MORAL ideas, do not come into play when it comes to doing what is best for the country and its people. Therefore, I believe that the country should be Pro-choice.

Try reading the bold part again CycloWizard.... That will answer your ? for you.

 

[Patrick Wolf]

Abortion is better than the alternative. You think 41 million babies are going to be adopted? No, most would end up as orphans or something and probably be screwed up mentally when they get older. More criminals to rape woman and create more unwanted pregnacies.

Helps control the world population - poor escuse, but it's true.

If girls put out more so guys wouldn't have to rape them, that would help. j/k

And all condoms should have super high durability. :thumbsup:

 

[edmundoab]

won't even look.
but it happens and sometimes the best option to avoid further complication and guilt

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Did you even read my post? If you did, you certainly didn't address any points I made in it.

Yes, I read your post, and yes I addressed it. In an ideal world, you are 100% correct. However, people sin. People are not perfect. In fact, I think most religions preach that people cannot be perfect (original sin anyone). Even Catholic priests themselves have been caught up in sex scandals. Religions realize that people sin, and have ways to deal with that sin (confessions, forgiveness, repenting, etc).

People can and will fall off the ideal sinfree lifestyle from time to time. Virtually everyone who has made an abstinence pledge has eventually broken that pledge out of wedlock. Thus the churches need to have a strategy to help these people. Allowing contraception is one such method.

I don't pick and choose parts of the bible to fit this agenda. I look at reality. In reality people sin. In reality, these people need help from the church - and should not be shunned. The church should help them minimize the sin when they do sin.

 

[TheSlamma]

Have you looked at what humans do to every other species on the planet.. we are not a sacred organism by any means.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: m316foley
My personal view: Yes, I believe in God. Do I think abortions are right? No. However, I live in this great country called the United States of America, where my PERSONAL and MORAL ideas, do not come into play when it comes to doing what is best for the country and its people. Therefore, I believe that the country should be Pro-choice.

Why legislate against murder? Stealing? Rape? Vandalism? Do you support the repealing of all such legislation? If not, then you're fundamentally inconsistent in your views and are making an exception for abortion. Law is the restriction of personal freedoms, which always result from someone's personal beliefs.

Laws are meant to legislate beliefs that the people share. You, on the other hand, would have 51% legislate something the other 49% oppose. Sorry, but if you ask around, I would say that rape, theft, vandalism, etc... would get quite a bit less support than that, no?

 

[Lizardman]

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: Gand1
go away

Ignorance must be bliss, huh? .

Indeed it is. But choice is what makes us human. The freedom to choose, so take that away and what are we?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Try reading the bold part again CycloWizard.... That will answer your ? for you.

No, because it's incorrect to say that a fetus is part of a woman's body. Further, it's incorrect to state that a person can do as he/she sees fit with their body. The state has a vested interest in the well-being of a person and, as such, restricts what we can do with our bodies. For example, we cannot sell our own organs, cannot kill ourselves, or mutilate ourselves legally.

Originally posted by: dullard
Yes, I read your post, and yes I addressed it. In an ideal world, you are 100% correct. However, people sin. People are not perfect. In fact, I think most religions preach that people cannot be perfect (original sin anyone). Even Catholic priests themselves have been caught up in sex scandals. Religions realize that people sin, and have ways to deal with that sin (confessions, forgiveness, repenting, etc).

People can and will fall off the ideal sinfree lifestyle from time to time. Virtually everyone who has made an abstinence pledge has eventually broken that pledge out of wedlock. Thus the churches need to have a strategy to help these people. Allowing contraception is one such method.

I don't pick and choose parts of the bible to fit this agenda. I look at reality. In reality people sin. In reality, these people need help from the church - and should not be shunned. The church should help them minimize the sin when they do sin.

No, you didn't address it. You stated that the Catholic teaching is bunk because they teach against contraception. I stated that they also teach against sex such that anyone abiding the Church's teachings wouldn't have to worry about contraception. However, it's clear from your response that you are unaware of the context of the Church's teaching. The Church teaches that sex is only ethical within marriage, and that marriage is for unity between partners and procreation. It says nothing governing sex acts performed outside of marriage.

Originally posted by: Meuge
Laws are meant to legislate beliefs that the people share. You, on the other hand, would have 51% legislate something the other 49% oppose. Sorry, but if you ask around, I would say that rape, theft, vandalism, etc... would get quite a bit less support than that, no?

No, I would have the courts NOT decide the issue for the people. The people had already decided this issue, banning most abortions in most places. The courts overthrew the will of the people and allowed all abortions at the drop of a hat. Anyway, this is yet another red herring from you, who refuse to address the actual points that I make.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Try reading the bold part again CycloWizard.... That will answer your ? for you.

No, because it's incorrect to say that a fetus is part of a woman's body. Further, it's incorrect to state that a person can do as he/she sees fit with their body. The state has a vested interest in the well-being of a person and, as such, restricts what we can do with our bodies. For example, we cannot sell our own organs, cannot kill ourselves, or mutilate ourselves legally.

Organ trade is restricted because it would likely result in people being killed for profit, not because of any other reason. Laws against self-mutilation and suicide are a ridiculous consequence of christian morality being legislated in this country.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: dullard
Yes, I read your post, and yes I addressed it. In an ideal world, you are 100% correct. However, people sin. People are not perfect. In fact, I think most religions preach that people cannot be perfect (original sin anyone). Even Catholic priests themselves have been caught up in sex scandals. Religions realize that people sin, and have ways to deal with that sin (confessions, forgiveness, repenting, etc).

People can and will fall off the ideal sinfree lifestyle from time to time. Virtually everyone who has made an abstinence pledge has eventually broken that pledge out of wedlock. Thus the churches need to have a strategy to help these people. Allowing contraception is one such method.

I don't pick and choose parts of the bible to fit this agenda. I look at reality. In reality people sin. In reality, these people need help from the church - and should not be shunned. The church should help them minimize the sin when they do sin.

No, you didn't address it. You stated that the Catholic teaching is bunk because they teach against contraception. I stated that they also teach against sex such that anyone abiding the Church's teachings wouldn't have to worry about contraception. However, it's clear from your response that you are unaware of the context of the Church's teaching. The Church teaches that sex is only ethical within marriage, and that marriage is for unity between partners and procreation. It says nothing governing sex acts performed outside of marriage.

So again you're using religion as a basis of your argument. For the 1000s time, it's an invalid point.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Meuge
Laws are meant to legislate beliefs that the people share. You, on the other hand, would have 51% legislate something the other 49% oppose. Sorry, but if you ask around, I would say that rape, theft, vandalism, etc... would get quite a bit less support than that, no?

No, I would have the courts NOT decide the issue for the people. The people had already decided this issue, banning most abortions in most places. The courts overthrew the will of the people and allowed all abortions at the drop of a hat. Anyway, this is yet another red herring from you, who refuse to address the actual points that I make.

I am getting sick of the fact that you keep ignoring all the points I made. I addressed the reasons why fetus is not human about 20 times in this thread, and you were not able to refute them. What I am addressing now is your intention to legislate religion, which you emphasize time after time. Actually, I am doing more than that - I am accusing you of being a fundamentalist, and assigning you into the same category as your good friend Osama bin Laden. Congrats.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
No, you didn't address it. You stated that the Catholic teaching is bunk because they teach against contraception. I stated that they also teach against sex such that anyone abiding the Church's teachings wouldn't have to worry about contraception. However, it's clear from your response that you are unaware of the context of the Church's teaching. The Church teaches that sex is only ethical within marriage, and that marriage is for unity between partners and procreation. It says nothing governing sex acts performed outside of marriage.

Agreeing with what you said means I "didn't address what you said"? That is an odd conclusion. So let me elaborate with my agreement.

Yes, the Catholic church teaches against sex. Yes, in an ideal world, that would be all that is needed. Yes, in an ideal world that would be perfect. Yes, in an ideal world they wouldn't have to worry about contraception. Yes, they teach that sex is only ethical within marriage. Yes, they teach that marriage is for unity and procreation. I agree with you.

However, statistics show that very few Catholics follow that teaching perfectly. They sin. The catholic church should teach what to do when sexual sins are/have been committed. That is all I'm saying. Why does adding that one bolded part mean I don't address or understand you post?