the truth about abortion

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Agman
If one of your family members had a problem and he could not think or feel anything and they wanted to kill him, I assure you wouldn't say "oh he is not human anymore just kill him."

I would hope they would. No cortical activity = no person. It may still be a human, and may even technically be alive, but it's no different then, say, a tomato.

If I am in a persistent vegetative state, I'd surely like my family to turn the machines off, and not destroy their own lives keeping my empty shell alive.

If you're mother is in a persistent vegetative state, can some stranger kill her without consequence?

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Agman
If one of your family members had a problem and he could not think or feel anything and they wanted to kill him, I assure you wouldn't say "oh he is not human anymore just kill him."

I would hope they would. No cortical activity = no person. It may still be a human, and may even technically be alive, but it's no different then, say, a tomato.

If I am in a persistent vegetative state, I'd surely like my family to turn the machines off, and not destroy their own lives keeping my empty shell alive.

If you're mother is in a persistent vegetative state, can some stranger kill her without consequence?

If I ask them to, yes.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Agman
Well from the replies that I've gotten it seems clear to me that people think one cannot appeal to both emotions and logic at the same time. So according to some what the Civil Rights movement did was impossible. Yet, they did it. Now you tell me if MLK did not appeal to emotion in his speaches about civil rights?

The point of the matter is people think that just because a fetus can't think or can't sustain itself, or it doesn't have brain activty that is not a human being. That, in my opinion, is wrong. I disagree with pulling the plug oh Schiavo, that in my perspective was wrong. We have no right to take another human being's life. I beleive a fetus (which as I have said I beleive is a human being) does have the same natural rights as a full grown human. Notice that I said natural rights, the rights defined in the constitution are not the only ones that a person has.

Killing a fetus by performing an abortion is taking away the right for that fetus to live. (the most basic human right is the right to live). Of course, I know there are times at which an abortion must be performed due to medical reasons. But I beleive before this abortion is performed the doctor or doctors must evaliate the situation and see if both lives can be saved if thats not possible then its up to the doctor's best judgement to see which live is more likely to be saved and try his best to do so.

Abortion is wrong because you are commiting murder by killing a living human. Living does not constitute only to thinking and having feelings. If one of your family members had a problem and he could not think or feel anything and they wanted to kill him, I assure you wouldn't say "oh he is not human anymore just kill him."

Going back to the emotional aspect of my argument. It is completely foolish to think that humans can make a decision without having some sort of emotion behind it. When you buy a shirt is because you like it. Liking something is an emotion.

Clearly people will come and refute my opinion and tell me that I am a complete idiot, but that is to be expected.

Another thing, to the many people who have called me a kid, I recent that kind of attitude towards me. I am not a kid. I bet that I can find a lot of "kids" with better matters than yours and who can have a civilized discussion without name calling.

MLK appealed to Reason, Rights, and Justice. He did not appeal to Emotion.

Ever heard one of his speeches? I'm not saying he ONLY appealed to emotion. But he did appeal to it.

He did not appeal to emotion. Whether his Speeches were emotional or not, they were not Appeals to Emotion.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: loki8481
Agman, what do you see as constituting a human being?

Everything from conception to death.

maybe it's just my bias... I've never really understood the perspective that sperm + egg + 1 second automatically equals a human being.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Agman
If one of your family members had a problem and he could not think or feel anything and they wanted to kill him, I assure you wouldn't say "oh he is not human anymore just kill him."

I would hope they would. No cortical activity = no person. It may still be a human, and may even technically be alive, but it's no different then, say, a tomato.

If I am in a persistent vegetative state, I'd surely like my family to turn the machines off, and not destroy their own lives keeping my empty shell alive.

If you're mother is in a persistent vegetative state, can some stranger kill her without consequence?

If I ask them to, yes.

Why do you have a license to kill, and nobody else?

 

[Agman]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: loki8481
Agman, what do you see as constituting a human being?

Everything from conception to death.

maybe it's just my bias... I've never really understood the perspective that sperm + egg + 1 second automatically equals a human being.

Then you do not understand the concept of life. At that momment life is created. Life is a precious thing that we must try our best to safeguard. Granted there are cases where we as humans cannot save it because of our limitations but we must try our best to preserve it.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Meuge
Well the thread started with one emotional argument, so there is plenty of room for an emotional counter argument.

But there is another argument there, which you clearly omitted in your reply. Why is it that you're so eager to make laws which will never affect you.

Why make laws for something that will never affect me? How do you possibly know whether it affects me? Maybe I'm emotionally traumatized by the very existence of abortion in our society. Maybe the guy who was supposed to cure cancer or be the next Einstein was aborted today. To say that I'm not a woman and therefore unaffected is simply disingenuous at best. But that doesn't even matter. If something is wrong, we as a society should prohibit it, whether it directly affects us or not. I will never be affected by hate crime legislation because I'm not a minority or a racist. Does that mean I should have no say in whether hate crime legislation exists or not? No, and it would be ridiculous to suggest such a thing. You do so in this instance because you have no other argument.

We've been over this a thousand times. If you really cared about saving lives, rather than legislating morality, you'd support contraception and sex ed programs.

Yes, and you are still wielding your red herring because you can't wage a real argument. Therefore, piss off.

That's absurb, you have no idea if someone will be the next Adolf Hitler or Albert Einstein.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: loki8481
Agman, what do you see as constituting a human being?

Everything from conception to death.

maybe it's just my bias... I've never really understood the perspective that sperm + egg + 1 second automatically equals a human being.

Then you do not understand the concept of life. At that momment life is created. Life is a precious thing that we must try our best to safeguard. Granted there are cases where we as humans cannot save it because of our limitations but we must try our best to preserve it.

If you define human life as a single cell with DNA, you should stop scratching yourself, cause you're committing mass murder.

 

[Agman]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: loki8481
Agman, what do you see as constituting a human being?

Everything from conception to death.

maybe it's just my bias... I've never really understood the perspective that sperm + egg + 1 second automatically equals a human being.

Then you do not understand the concept of life. At that momment life is created. Life is a precious thing that we must try our best to safeguard. Granted there are cases where we as humans cannot save it because of our limitations but we must try our best to preserve it.

If you define human life as a single cell with DNA, you should stop scratching yourself, cause you're committing mass murder.

Except they are MY cells. When I was conceived I became my own being with my own cell. Its not my mom's cell and its not my dad's cell. Its MINE. You have no right to kill MY cell.

 

[Smartazz]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Agman
Same thing, in the Bible it says we shall not commit murder.

I believe that the bible also says that an infant doesn't have a soul until it takes its first breath

agreed, you can't take things out of context.

 

[Agman]

Can you please point to me where in the Bible it says that. Because I'm pretty sure that it does not, and if it does it was taken out of context.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: Meuge
If you define human life as a single cell with DNA, you should stop scratching yourself, cause you're committing mass murder.

Except they are MY cells. When I was conceived I became my own being with my own cell. Its not my mom's cell and its not my dad's cell. Its MINE. You have no right to kill MY cell.

If you ask me I do.

Actually you've just completely defeated your own argument. If DNA and thus life can be OWNED, then father + mother own the DNA of the fetus, and can do with it what they wish.

 

[Agman]

Did you read my post?? I didn't say it was my parents. It was mine!

I said once the NEW DNA is created. Since it is not the same DNA as my mom or my dad. It is MY DNA. I am my own being at that point.

When I have a child, and he gets conceived I don't own him. He is his own being, I don't own his DNA. He owns his own DNA.

 

[nageov3t]

Genesis 2:7, "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."

there are also some instances in exodus, I think, there the crime for causing a miscarriage is set apart from the crime of killing a child.

edit: I've always thought that pro-life Christians were kind of hypocritical on this issue... I mean, if life begins at conception, why do they wait until a child is born before baptizing it? why not just baptize it in the womb?

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Agman
Did you read my post?? I didn't say it was my parents. It was mine!

Either your skills of logical deduction are absent, or you're deliberately ignoring an obvious connection.

If you own your cells, what makes them yours - your DNA. Thus DNA sequence defines ownership of the cellular material. The DNA sequence of the fetus is a recombination of the DNA sequences of the parents. If the DNA sequence defines the owndership of cellular material, the DNA of the fetus is a combination of parental DNA, and the parents own the DNA, thus they own the fetus.

Build me a similarly logically structured argument if you want to refute mine.

 

[Agman]

Originally posted by: loki8481
Genesis 2:7, "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."

there are also some instances in exodus, I think, there the crime for causing a miscarriage is set apart from the crime of killing a child.

edit: I've always thought that pro-life Christians were kind of hypocritical on this issue... I mean, if life begins at conception, why do they wait until a child is born before baptizing it? why not just baptize it in the womb?

If you use this as a sign that breath is the sign of life then you my friend have completely misread it. Breath is an analogy to life. He didn't physically breathe upon the dust. He just gave it life. Nowhere there it says that life begins with breath.

 

[diapickle]

yes

 

[Agman]

If you had any knowledge about Christianity you would know that baptizing of babies is not a commandment in the bible. Baptism is for the ones who beleive in Christ and is a public sign of your conversion. Please do not make foolish comments on babtism if you do not know the purpose and meaning of it.

 

[moshquerade]

abortion threads always get heated. personally i would never have an abortion, but it's not up to me to tell anyone else they cannot.

 

[Agman]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Agman
Did you read my post?? I didn't say it was my parents. It was mine!

Either your skills of logical deduction are absent, or you're deliberately ignoring an obvious connection.

If you own your cells, what makes them yours - your DNA. Thus DNA sequence defines ownership of the cellular material. The DNA sequence of the fetus is a recombination of the DNA sequences of the parents. If the DNA sequence defines the owndership of cellular material, the DNA of the fetus is a combination of parental DNA, and the parents own the DNA, thus they own the fetus.

Build me a similarly logically structured argument if you want to refute mine.

Lets say my parents did own me. So if they did own me, why is it wrong for a parent to kill their child? If I follow your logic correctly then its theirs and they can do whatever they want to it. So if the child is theirs and they wanna kill it, why is this wrong? and abortion is not?

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Agman
http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-case.html
*WARNING: THIS LINK CONTAINS HARSH AND GRUESOME IMAGES, DISCRETION IS ADVISED*

Can you honestly look at this video and defend abortion? All religious matters aside, its the law that we can't murder other human beings. And quite frankly those babies are human beigns, not "parasites" as some people like to call them. This video is very shocking and gruesome but its the reality that ALL americans must face.

Don't think that I'm saying ALL abortions are wrong, since I do know that sometimes medical conditions demand an abortion and I have to no problem with that since the mother is in danger of death. But these types of abortions are only 1% out of all of them! The rest are for other reasons like rape, or just because the woman does not want to have a child.

Seriously, if a woman does not want the child at all; why kill the child? Adoption is what they should do. They have no right to take the life of that child just because they feel like it

That being said, I think this link provides all the proof to defend the argument that abortion is wrong. 41 MILLION LIVES!! And the abortion industry keeps growing and growing and making more and more money. While women say "I have a choice!", how can people be so selfish? They are not the only human being involved in the situation. They have a HUMAN BEING inside of them!

You're just pissed because of all the wire hanger scars on your forehead.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Agman

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Agman
Did you read my post?? I didn't say it was my parents. It was mine!

Either your skills of logical deduction are absent, or you're deliberately ignoring an obvious connection.

If you own your cells, what makes them yours - your DNA. Thus DNA sequence defines ownership of the cellular material. The DNA sequence of the fetus is a recombination of the DNA sequences of the parents. If the DNA sequence defines the owndership of cellular material, the DNA of the fetus is a combination of parental DNA, and the parents own the DNA, thus they own the fetus.

Build me a similarly logically structured argument if you want to refute mine.

Lets say my parents did own me. So if they did own me, why is it wrong for a parent to kill their child? If I follow your logic correctly then its theirs and they can do whatever they want to it. So if the child is theirs and they wanna kill it, why is this wrong? and abortion is not?

The abortion industry does not profit.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Agman
http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-case.html
*WARNING: THIS LINK CONTAINS HARSH AND GRUESOME IMAGES, DISCRETION IS ADVISED*

Can you honestly look at this video and defend abortion? All religious matters aside, its the law that we can't murder other human beings. And quite frankly those babies are human beigns, not "parasites" as some people like to call them. This video is very shocking and gruesome but its the reality that ALL americans must face.

Don't think that I'm saying ALL abortions are wrong, since I do know that sometimes medical conditions demand an abortion and I have to no problem with that since the mother is in danger of death. But these types of abortions are only 1% out of all of them! The rest are for other reasons like rape, or just because the woman does not want to have a child.

Seriously, if a woman does not want the child at all; why kill the child? Adoption is what they should do. They have no right to take the life of that child just because they feel like it

That being said, I think this link provides all the proof to defend the argument that abortion is wrong. 41 MILLION LIVES!! And the abortion industry keeps growing and growing and making more and more money. While women say "I have a choice!", how can people be so selfish? They are not the only human being involved in the situation. They have a HUMAN BEING inside of them!

You're just pissed because of all the wire hanger scars on your forehead.

:thumbsdown:

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: Agman
Well if you will it to be that way then leave it in writing and do it. But in an abortion the fetus has no say in what they are going to do. You cannot take another human being's life just because you feel like it.

The fetus has nothing to say because it DOES NOT EXIST as a person. Why is this so difficult for you to understand. Why not address my previos questions? Let me make it simple for ya kiddo, what essential biological functioning constitutes personhood?

And, yes, until you prove that my previous 7 point list is invalid youre a kid.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: Agman
Well if you will it to be that way then leave it in writing and do it. But in an abortion the fetus has no say in what they are going to do. You cannot take another human being's life just because you feel like it.

The fetus has nothing to say because it DOES NOT EXIST as a person. Why is this so difficult for you to understand. Why not address my previos questions? Let me make it simple for ya kiddo, what essential biological functioning constitutes personhood?

And, yes, until you prove that my previous 7 point list is invalid youre a kid.

homercles, why can't you just let him have an opinion? leave the guy alone. many people believe life begins at conception.