The soft left summed up in under four minutes.

[mect]

You aren't creating the binary situation you think you are, there are other factors at play. Let me be clear, one more time, so you will hopefully stop putting words in my mouth. I do NOT BELIEVE WHITES ARE SUPERIOR TO ANY RACE. I do not believe any race is "superior". If you continue saying this, you are a lying troll. I don't know how much more clear I can be.

And yes, whites ARE disadvantaged when it comes to affirmative action. Whites males are systematically put at a disadvantage to help create diversity. How can you argue that affirmative action does not do exactly that, disadvantage white males in an effort to better the odds for other groups?

No there aren't. The components of this problem can easily be broken down into two separate categories: internal abilities and societal biases. If you can think of a factor that wouldn't fall into one of these groups, please provide an example. If there is no difference between internal abilities of different groups, then any difference in outcomes must of necessity be attributed to societal biases. If a group regularly achieves worse outcomes in employment, and we are assuming that this group has equal abilities to other groups, then that indicates obtainment of employment is more difficult for that group.

 

[interchange]

I think victimhood identity doesn't very much discriminate along political lines. For Republican victims, it's usually projected as "it's their problem not mine" instead of the Democrat victims who project it as "it's their fault not mine".

 

[Jhhnn]

Other demographics are also concentrated in cities and urban areas.

So dishonest. All those places where asians don't live where wages are lower are filled with an enormous number of white people, ~12x as many whites as asians overall.

 

[fskimospy]

I think victimhood identity doesn't very much discriminate along political lines. For Republican victims, it's usually projected as "it's their problem not mine" instead of the Democrat victims who project it as "it's their fault not mine".

The point is that only one of those two groups says that victimhood largely isn’t real and that people need to stop complaining.

The irritating part about modern American conservatism is not necessarily its victim complex, it’s that they complain about everyone else considering themselves victims while simultaneously whining about how picked on they are.

 

[Jhhnn]

That is not the only conclusion. This is your leftist fantasy world coming into play again. What if African Americans have been duped by the left into believing relying on the government is the way forward when in fact it isn't, and that the left is actually handicapping them? That does not make them inferior, and in no way do I believe they are.

More failed trickle down obviously isn't the way forward. If it were we wouldn't be where we are after 40 years of it.

It's the political version of battered spouse syndrome.

 

[SlowSpyder]

So you DO believe they are inferior, now we're only discussing why they are inferior. Thank you.

Here you go with the leftist bullshit again. Like I said, the left tries so hard to put racism into any situation, even where none exists. Today's left, the true racists.

 

[SlowSpyder]

More failed trickle down obviously isn't the way forward. If it were we wouldn't be where we are after 40 years of it.

It's the political version of battered spouse syndrome.

Putting words in my mouth again. You guys are getting good at saying things I never said and would never say. Did you see in this very thread where I said FDR and Ronnie Reagan are two of the most overrated presidents ever?

 

[fskimospy]

Here you go with the leftist bullshit again. Like I said, the left tries so hard to put racism into any situation, even where none exists. Today's left, the true racists.

Here you go, trying to put racism where it doesn’t exist.

Like I said, people often don’t realize they are racist because they don’t like to think of themselves as bad people. Your whole ‘white people are the real victims of racism’ meltdown in this thread outed you better than I ever could have.

I’m sure you want to believe that your shitty opinions are someone’s fault other than your own but they aren’t. You are going to have to take personal responsibility for it.

 

[pmv]

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-median-income-in-the-us-by-race-2013-9

Excellent stats here, middle of page: http://www.asian-nation.org/employment.shtml#sthash.hOCFYLoS.dpbs

The first link there doesn't answer my question at all (it just has the blanket category 'asians', which is precisely what I was questioning), so not at all sure why you post it. The second might have relevant data buried in there somewhere, but it would help if you actually linked to it, or, indeed, just cited it.

 

[Jhhnn]

Putting words in my mouth again. You guys are getting good at saying things I never said and would never say. Did you see in this very thread where I said FDR and Ronnie Reagan are two of the most overrated presidents ever?

So dishonest. It's perfectly clear that we can & must use govt to get what we want from capitalism or that we can just let it get what it wants from us. They got a whole lot better at hoarding wealth & income because we let them do it & failed to seek compensation for job loss to automation & offshoring. We let them tell us that the only stakeholders in the business of America are the shareholders. Not the workers, the communities or the nation. As far as they're concerned, they don't owe the American people anything.

 

[Jaskalas]

Like I said, people often don’t realize they are racist because they don’t like to think of themselves as bad people. Your whole ‘white people are the real victims of racism’ meltdown in this thread outed you better than I ever could have.

It is incredible the depths you plum to assert and defend racist policy. You choose people based on the color of their skin, but have the audacity to call others racist AND pretend that your discrimination has harmed no one. You hide behind aggregate stats while purposefully ignoring the individuals your policy has harmed.

And this is how you reply, with venom towards one who is speaking on those individual's behalf? His is a message you need to hear.

It has an impact, you do not need to harm millions of people when 70k settles a national election. But because a majority scrapes by with privilege you wash your hands of harmful, racist policy? Making enemies is not how one perseveres in a Democracy. I am calling Democrats out on taking part in ugly, base, tribalism. There's a reason Trump's economic message played so well for a large crowd, and it is due in part to Democrats not speaking for those folks.

If minorities are impoverished by our misdeeds, then help the impoverished. Do not discriminate. Do not continue racism. By helping poor people, ALL poor people, you'd be helping the larger share of minorities who are poor. Blind yourself to the color of people's skin, and make yourself a better person, and the Democratic Party home for more Americans.

 

[fskimospy]

It is incredible the depths you plum to assert and defend racist policy. You choose people based on the color of their skin, but have the audacity to call others racist AND pretend that your discrimination has harmed no one. You hide behind aggregate stats while purposefully ignoring the individuals your policy has harmed.

And this is how you reply, with venom towards one who is speaking on those individual's behalf? His is a message you need to hear.

It has an impact, you do not need to harm millions of people when 70k settles a national election. But because a majority scrapes by with privilege you wash your hands of harmful, racist policy? Making enemies is not how one perseveres in a Democracy. I am calling Democrats out on taking part in ugly, base, tribalism. There's a reason Trump's economic message played so well for a large crowd, and it is due in part to Democrats not speaking for those folks.

If minorities are impoverished by our misdeeds, then help the impoverished. Do not discriminate. Do not continue racism. By helping poor people, ALL poor people, you'd be helping the larger share of minorities who are poor. Blind yourself to the color of people's skin, and make yourself a better person, and the Democratic Party home for more Americans.

Yes, we should not continue racism. The fact that you think attempts to correct for racism are racism means you’re part of the problem.

I don’t think you’re a racist yourself but this sort of foolish nonsense enables racists. The idea that when some people are impoverished by racism and some people are impoverished despite racism that we should treat those as the same is absolute, ridiculous bullshit. The idea that you would defend unrepentant racists like SlowSpyder who say that whites are the true victims is something you should be ashamed of.

I think you are an excellent poster who generally shows an admirable open mindedness that is sorely lacking here but this really missed the mark.

 

[interchange]

The point is that only one of those two groups says that victimhood largely isn’t real and that people need to stop complaining.

The irritating part about modern American conservatism is not necessarily its victim complex, it’s that they complain about everyone else considering themselves victims while simultaneously whining about how picked on they are.

Irritating, sure, but we're all just people who are doing the best we can. Just because someone acts like an asshole to project away their suffering doesn't mean they aren't suffering.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes, we should not continue racism. The fact that you think attempts to correct for racism are racism means you’re part of the problem.

I don’t think you’re a racist yourself but this sort of foolish nonsense enables racists. The idea that when some people are impoverished by racism and some people are impoverished despite racism that we should treat those as the same is absolute, ridiculous bullshit. The idea that you would defend unrepentant racists like SlowSpyder who say that whites are the true victims is something you should be ashamed of.

I think you are an excellent poster who generally shows an admirable open mindedness that is sorely lacking here but this really missed the mark.

Thank You.

 

[realibrad]

Well, I think that it depends on what "the rulebook says." If the little scenario that you have to click on through HR training calls it sexual harassment, then it is. That's the rule. It doesn't have to make sense to you or me because the only way to apply a general rule is to make a general rule. And obviously for this situation, there needs to be a rule. It isn't going to be a perfect fit everywhere, but that isn't the point. I asked my mom about this other day and her comment was that "Those shoes look nice!" or "look nice on you!" is fine. But "Those shoes really make your legs look great!" is harassment. The explanation is that the second statement is directly objectifying the person. (i.e.: she--hell, or he--is a pair of legs more than they are a person). Again, it's better to take this up with HR.

No HR rulebook is going to be that explicit. HR rules are more general because its understood that each situation is different. Blindly following rules also leads to stupid situations where little boys get suspended for chewing a poptart into a triangle and the administration says its a gun.

As for objectifying a person, everyone does it and its almost never bad. For example, "Becky is math wiz". Becky has been reduced to her being a math wiz and all the other details of Becky are ignored. Another, "Tom is super tall, it must be nice". Tom has been objectified too. So, in your example what harm has been done by objectifying her legs?

Not exactly; I'm arguing that while the person who is offended has the greater stake and say over what they consider offensive, what ultimately matters is what the rules dictate in the environment where the offense occurs. This means that even if the person isn't offended, the comment/advance could certainly be construed as harassment because the rules establish it as such, and this is by necessity. I actually believe it is reasonable for other people to bring the incident to light, even if the the individual does not want to accuse the offender. Rules really only work when they are equally enforced. I know this sounds unfair, but while it does make me uncomfortable, I think it is the only way to properly enforce these boundaries.

You are falling back on, if its a rule then you must follow it. Rules are not usually made to be followed blindly. They are typically understood to be interpreted, which is why you often her "spirit" when rules are talked about. Rules are made to protect, and if they are not protecting then what are they doing?

You have logically defended following rules such as Jim Crow. The way we were able to argue to repeal those was by saying that logically they were not helping and that those offended by equality were wrong. Had we followed the rules then no progress would have been made. That will seem hyperbolic but I think you understand my point.

I don't think fault should be entirely dependent upon the offendee's feelings, but obviously this would be where the greatest weight is placed. I think it only fair to weigh the specifics of the situation, at the time, and how it was handled then and later. Honestly, I don't want to begin to establish where the ultimate burden of proof lies, because this does make it difficult for the accused in a situation where a consensual situation can ultimately be turned around against them, and indefensible due to lack of evidence. Likewise, it is not circumstantially the accuser's responsibility to report harassment or assault at the instance that it occurs due to established and well-documented power dynamics that are often at play in these situations. ...responsibility may be the wrong word. What I mean is that it is perfectly understandable that someone wouldn't immediately report and this should never be held against them. And of course, we already know that in many of these cases, these women aren't really waiting to come out well after the fact. Their complaints have simply fallen on deaf ears for a very long time. Accusing them of doing such, in light of the known history of their abuse is rather shameful, imo. (likewise the repugnant slut shaming that I've seen here, particularly from the left, wrg to Franken's initial accuser)

Fault should be irrelevant of offendee's feelings. 100%. Again, going back to racists during Jim Crow, those racists were deeply offended when minorities were treated equally but that did not ultimately matter at all. It did for some time, but end the end we as a society said oh well, we are not going to protect your feelings at the expense of others.

We are a society built upon proof and logic. For the same reason we do not listen to a guy on the corner that says the world is ending, we do not listen to someone that said they have been raped without using proof and or logic. People can be shitty and rape, and they can also lie about rape. They can lie about sexual harassment too. A society that blindly accepts accusations is a broken society.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Yes, we should not continue racism. The fact that you think attempts to correct for racism are racism means you’re part of the problem.

I don’t think you’re a racist yourself but this sort of foolish nonsense enables racists. The idea that when some people are impoverished by racism and some people are impoverished despite racism that we should treat those as the same is absolute, ridiculous bullshit. The idea that you would defend unrepentant racists like SlowSpyder who say that whites are the true victims is something you should be ashamed of.

I think you are an excellent poster who generally shows an admirable open mindedness that is sorely lacking here but this really missed the mark.

I am not the racist here. I am saying the only institutionalized racism that exists today is against the white male. You keep pretending like I'm some kind of bad person for acknowledging this being reality. You are playing the classic liberal move here, scream racism and shut down all ability to think or process. You are so far gone with the indoctrination you can't think for yourself any more, and when presented with something that doesn't compute or jibe with your indoctrination you simply shut down and fling mud. You are the unrepentant racist in this discussion.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I am not the racist here. I am saying the only institutionalized racism that exists today is against the white male. You keep pretending like I'm some kind of bad person for acknowledging this being reality. You are playing the classic liberal move here, scream racism and shut down all ability to think or process. You are so far gone with the indoctrination you can't think for yourself any more, and when presented with something that doesn't compute or jibe with your indoctrination you simply shut down and fling mud. You are the unrepentant racist in this discussion.

HAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAA.... Boy howdy, I'm sure at some point you'll convince someone besides yourself that the above is a true statement. And you're still nothing but a troll.

 

[nickqt]

HAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAA.... Boy howdy, I'm sure at some point you'll convince someone besides yourself that the above is a true statement. And you're still nothing but a troll.

Remember: the straight white conservative male is the biggest victim on the planet. Always and forever.

Don't believe me? Just ask 'em.

 

[shortylickens]

He didn't say there was no more racism.

He said the only INSTITUTIONALIZED racism around today is against white males.

Now having said that, I still think the informal, day-to-day, not-legal-but-still-practiced-racism that blacks feel every day on the street and in the workplace is probably more difficult to deal with than the angry liberal type against white males.

 

[SlowSpyder]

He didn't say there was no more racism.

He said the only INSTITUTIONALIZED racism around today is against white males.

Now having said that, I still think the informal, day-to-day, not-legal-but-still-practiced-racism that blacks feel every day on the street and in the workplace is probably more difficult to deal with than the angry liberal type against white males.

These guys here are defending racism against a demographic as a good idea because reasons. They and I hate certain racists, but I go one group of racists further than they do. Other racists in the past defended racism as a good idea, just like racists such as Jhhnn and fskimoskpy do here today. But I do truly want to believe these guys are more ignorant than hateful.

 

[mect]

These guys here are defending racism against a demographic as a good idea because reasons. They and I hate certain racists, but I go one group of racists further than they do. Other racists in the past defended racism as a good idea, just like racists such as Jhhnn and fskimoskpy do here today. But I do truly want to believe these guys are more ignorant than hateful.

Until you understand the definition of racism, you really should stop using the word.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Until you understand the definition of racism, you really should stop using the word.

Ah, another "definition of marriage" guy.

 

[zinfamous]

Hey Slow, how's your safe space doing for this weekend? Your big boy Cheetoh is going down faster than a Saigon whore right now. Got enough pillows for your bunker?

[shit I'm going to get banned for that one]

 

[mect]

Ah, another "definition of marriage" guy.

I didn't know you hated gays as well. The list just gets longer and longer.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I didn't know you hated gays as well. The list just gets longer and longer.

You don't get it, I'm putting you, Jhhnn, feskimospy all in the same boat with those that were anti-LGBT marriage because they felt the definition of LGBT marriage was off. I hope this helps you understand perspective a bit.

Zin and Sheik are very likely of the ilk too.