"The rape thing"

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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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It doesn't trivialize it in the slightest. It's saying, "There's already been violence done. There need not be further violence."

Why do you consider abortion to be "violence", at least from the woman's perspective? I honestly don't understand.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Why do you consider abortion to be "violence", at least from the woman's perspective? I honestly don't understand.

Because

jZL5X.jpg
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
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I'm going to give you a hint: Abortion is the women's choice, rape is not.

And you should really ask rape victims what they consider violence. I hope you don't mind getting punched in the face when you try to make your case.

...and what case would I be making? That abortion and rape are essentially the same thing? You know, the argument that I already said 15 or so posts ago that I wasn't making, and neither was the guy in the OP?
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Maybe those who oppose abortion in the case of rape should have a 12lb bomb shoved up their ass and told they can't remove it for 7 months. Should they try to remove it before 7 months it will explode.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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Because it kills her own child.

I think you're either intentionally or unintentionally conflating the fetus's viewpoint with that of the rape victim.

If she doesn't view it as a child -- or even worse, if she views the potential child as something that will force her to live with and constantly be reminded of the rape -- then how is it "violence" from her perspective? Isn't it actually more of an injury to this person to force her to carry such a fetus to term?

Are you aware that there are some (unproven) theories suggesting a possible genetic influence on propensity to commit violent acts?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
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I think you're either intentionally or unintentionally conflating the fetus's viewpoint with that of the rape victim.

If she doesn't view it as a child -- or even worse, if she views the potential child as something that will force her to live with and constantly be reminded of the rape -- then how is it "violence" from her perspective? Isn't it actually more of an injury to this person to force her to carry such a fetus to term?

I'm not in favor of forcing a woman to live with a child conceived in rape. I've made that point clear once already in this thread, and many other times in other threads.

I will add to this response once I get back to work. Taking my son home from the hospital right now.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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No, because they don't kill the mother's child.
There's a fundamental disconnect here. You will never convince me that a fetus, especially in the early terms of pregnancy, is a "child." I will never convince you that life doesn't begin at conception. We're at an impasse, and it seems fruitless for either of us to waste time on further rhetoric to this end. I disagree with your view, but I support your right to hold it.

I just hope you can understand how it sounds like this politician was conflating the violence of rape with the violence of abortion, and how wrong that seems to most people. Planned Parenthood doesn't grab people off the street, hold them down against their will, kicking and screaming, and forcibly kill the child in their womb. It's a voluntary act. You may disagree with it, but to say that the violence of abortion is anything like the violence of rape is incredibly offensive to people who have had to go through the horror of rape.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
I'm not in favor of forcing a woman to live with a child conceived in rape. I've made that point clear once already in this thread, and many other times in other threads.

I will add to this response once I get back to work. Taking my son home from the hospital right now.

Okay, sorry. I didn't read the whole thread, mostly because I saw it was full of nehalem spooge.

Hope your son is okay.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,511
29,092
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Okay. So the outrage stems from the idea that abortion isn't violent according to liberals?

That's pretty thin.

so, your argument is that the other perspective is simply "thin" because you don't agree with it?

:hmm:

How about this:

No


Why does that work? One has to define violence as it pertains to abortion. My expectation, is that you consider abortion murder, which is the only way one can bring violence into this.

Of course, rational people do not consider abortion murder, which is why the violence argument isn't just thin, it's preposterous.
 

mvbighead

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2009
3,793
1
81
I'm not in favor of forcing a woman to live with a child conceived in rape. I've made that point clear once already in this thread, and many other times in other threads.

I will add to this response once I get back to work. Taking my son home from the hospital right now.

So, to what end does one have to go through to prove that they were raped in order to get an abortion? That's where this debate is headed.

Ghetto girl walks into Planned Parenthood - "Yo Mo Fo I need to get an aborshun cause I been raped."

Who decides whether or not she can get an abortion? Her case does not sound legit (to the common man), but she certainly may have been. What is the burden of proof?

To me, the answer is this... Pro Choice. It is obvious to anyone that abortion is not something that someone should be encouraged to do (and it isn't something that is encouraged, just something that is supported). However, the process is already tough enough on the person going through it, that there doesn't need to be additional hoops for the victim. No one encourages the act of abortion. But it is something that should be allowed for those who make the choice.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
So, to what end does one have to go through to prove that they were raped in order to get an abortion? That's where this debate is headed.

Ghetto girl walks into Planned Parenthood - "Yo Mo Fo I need to get an aborshun cause I been raped."

Who decides whether or not she can get an abortion? Her case does not sound legit (to the common man), but she certainly may have been. What is the burden of proof?

The obvious answer is that she filed a police report within a reasonable* time frame of said rape occurring.

*reasonable meaning it should be obvious that she is not filing it just to get an abortion.

To me, the answer is this... Pro Choice. It is obvious to anyone that abortion is not something that someone should be encouraged to do (and it isn't something that is encouraged, just something that is supported). However, the process is already tough enough on the person going through it, that there doesn't need to be additional hoops for the victim. No one encourages the act of abortion. But it is something that should be allowed for those who make the choice.

Umm, why shouldn't abortions be encouraged for poor women? If a fetus is just a ball of cells why is there any problem with removing it?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
There's a fundamental disconnect here. You will never convince me that a fetus, especially in the early terms of pregnancy, is a "child." I will never convince you that life doesn't begin at conception. We're at an impasse, and it seems fruitless for either of us to waste time on further rhetoric to this end. I disagree with your view, but I support your right to hold it.

Okay, fair enough. But just FMI, do you think abortions should be restricted in the late term?

I just hope you can understand how it sounds like this politician was conflating the violence of rape with the violence of abortion, and how wrong that seems to most people.

That is precisely what I can't understand, although I do understand that to pro-lifers he was obviously not saying that, and to pro-choicers he obviously was.

Planned Parenthood doesn't grab people off the street, hold them down against their will, kicking and screaming, and forcibly kill the child in their womb. It's a voluntary act. You may disagree with it, but to say that the violence of abortion is anything like the violence of rape is incredibly offensive to people who have had to go through the horror of rape.

Again, no one is equating the violence of abortion to the violence of rape. That is my principle objection to this thread: that the outrage manufactured here is borne of a deliberate misreading, or at least misunderstanding of what the guy said. To my understanding his argument is that we should not visit violence upon the violated. Once I cleared that up, the argument then became whether abortion is indeed violent against the mother, which is far more subject to opinion and far foggier.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Okay, sorry. I didn't read the whole thread, mostly because I saw it was full of nehalem spooge.

Hope your son is okay.

Fuckin' mastoiditis man. They had to excise his left mastoid bone as well some muscle tissue beneath it. Whatever pathogen he got hold of, it wanted him bad. Glad we caught it, because it can spread to his brain. Used to be a leading cause of infant mortality. I gotta hand it to the ENT we had. He knew his stuff inside and out.

Good news is that excised bone and muscle tissue will regenerate in young kids. He's only 1, so that was a relief. Thanks for the concern.
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
So, to what end does one have to go through to prove that they were raped in order to get an abortion? That's where this debate is headed.

Ghetto girl walks into Planned Parenthood - "Yo Mo Fo I need to get an aborshun cause I been raped."

Who decides whether or not she can get an abortion? Her case does not sound legit (to the common man), but she certainly may have been. What is the burden of proof?

Without going to the trouble of researching, I'm pretty sure in most cases the burden of proof is on the woman to prove she's been raped.

To me, the answer is this... Pro Choice. It is obvious to anyone that abortion is not something that someone should be encouraged to do (and it isn't something that is encouraged, just something that is supported). However, the process is already tough enough on the person going through it, that there doesn't need to be additional hoops for the victim. No one encourages the act of abortion. But it is something that should be allowed for those who make the choice.

I simply can't agree that we should allow a choice which necessarily deprives an innocent, much less an innocent child, and much less again one's own innocent child, of his or her life.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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Ugh! That sucks. Hope your son is feeling better soon.

I think the concept you are not seeing here is that of consent. Rape is considered violent because it is sex without consent. Abortion is a procedure done with consent, so it cannot be considered violent -- the woman is asking to have it done.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Ugh! That sucks. Hope your son is feeling better soon.

I think the concept you are not seeing here is that of consent. Rape is considered violent because it is sex without consent. Abortion is a procedure done with consent, so it cannot be considered violent -- the woman is asking to have it done.

Right, and that's the disagreement. Violence need not be non-consensual to be violent, or at least that'd be the argument. Depriving someone of their child, with or without their consent, would be considered violent.

And just for the hell of it, of the several definitions of violence on wiktionary, only one of them mentions force.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Violence need not be non-consensual to be violent, or at least that'd be the argument. Depriving someone of their child, with or without their consent, would be considered violent.

I understand what you're saying, from a purely literal standpoint. But this is a highly emotionally-charged issue.

I'll also point to the phrasing and context used here: "putting more violence onto a woman's body." The word "more" implies an equivalence in the type of "violence" between rape and abortion. And that's what has people upset.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,085
5,618
126
I understand what you're saying, from a purely literal standpoint. But this is a highly emotionally-charged issue.

I'll also point to the phrasing and context used here: "putting more violence onto a woman's body." The word "more" implies an equivalence in the type of "violence" between rape and abortion. And that's what has people upset.

Partially. There's also the fact that he doesn't seem to think the constant reminder of violence isn't a form of continued violence itself.