The law vs the greater good

[diesbudt]

Giving causes a chemical reaction in the giver which is beneficial and enjoyable. Giving is LITERALLY its own reward. It's equivalent to pushing the morphine drip button.

Emotional benefits can be repaid, regardless of economic condition, thereby meaning that the recipient CAN pay you back 'in kind'.

As much as I disagree with this person's view on a world being too fantasy and optimistical that will never happen...

He is actually right about this. Giving, and by giving we mean really giving not just a simple card on a birthday or whatever, has such a positive reaction on the brain and body it can make one much healthier too.

 

[nehalem256]

Giving causes a chemical reaction in the giver which is beneficial and enjoyable. Giving is LITERALLY its own reward. It's equivalent to pushing the morphine drip button.

Clearly wrong. If it was this thread would be unnecessary wouldn't it. Seems like most people get more pleasure from the big mac or HDTV

Oh so its about what can i get out of it. My bad. Been doing it wrong all these years.

So glad im not a Christian..id surely be going to hell with the life ive lived.

Seems like you are completely failing to address my question what why it is rational to give to strangers.

While trying to appeal to an emotional "its the christian thing to do" argument.

 

[Texashiker]

No, it doesn't promote the greater good because you are undermining the system which allows new drugs to be created.

Being able to make your own wine has not destroyed the wine industry.

Backyard chickens have not destroyed the egg or chicken industry.

The people that buy the generic drugs probably can not afford the expensive version, so nothing has been lost.

You only lose money when you lose a customer. The peasants were never customers to start with. How are you going to lose money from someone that never bought your product to start with?

 

[PrinceofWands]

You are trying to compare uncomparable things. Any help to the world is good, and no better than anyone elses contributions.

Maybe I help a lady across the street. Only thing I will ever do nice in my life. That lady, who didnt die because i helped her across the street, births a child. Who ends up birthing a child that solves the world hunger issues and starts framework for world peace.

Maybe you do all you said above, yet one time while volunteering you angered someone, who 10+ years from now starts a massacre and kills 20+ people.

Who helps more on society? Me or you?

You cannot quantify or qualify what is a better or good for society until you see it play out fully. Sometimes the worst consequences come about because of the best intentions.

It isn't greedy to want things or go get bigger than normal things. It isn't selfish to take what you believe you deserve for yourself. And what to each individual person is valuable. I have an active life. I work out plenty, date around, volunteer once a week, lead a board gaming group, play video games, help a neigherbors son do HW. So my Time is very valuable. Therefor, $30000 a year won't cut it. Sorry, my time is much more valuable than that. Do I think I deserver $100000/yr? No, and I dont make that much. But I do believe my $7xxxx/yr is adequately compensating me for my time, and that what I do does make a small difference, though it isnt a direct difference in peoples lives, but an indirect one.

And you are free to feel that way about it. You are NOT free to claim objective truth of your position however. Your time is NOT objectively valuable because of that, or any other reason. You BELIEVE it's SUBJECTIVELY valuable. That's it.

Meanwhile, I'm free to feel you're both ignorant, and a selfish asshole for your beliefs. I am NOT free to claim objective truth for my position however. It's merely how I feel about it, given my understanding of various topics and my own personal warrants. You can turn the tables and believe that makes me an idealistic fool, or a rude asshole, or anything else you'd like.

Fair enough argument on the ultimate conclusion track, so long as you concede that it concurrently dismisses the 'I make more therefore I can do more' line of argumentation you previously attempted. Either both are valid (all potentialities are equally possible), or neither are (potentiality is unknowable, and therefore unclaimable).

 

[nehalem256]

Being able to make your own wine has not destroyed the wine industry.

Backyard chickens have not destroyed the egg or chicken industry.

Probably because the cost or effort involved is not worth it to most people.

 

[nehalem256]

And you are free to feel that way about it. You are NOT free to claim objective truth of your position however. Your time is NOT objectively valuable because of that, or any other reason. You BELIEVE it's SUBJECTIVELY valuable. That's it.

By that same argument a person life has no objective value. You merely believe it is subjectively valuable. That's it.

 

[soulcougher73]

And what is "caring"? Is it taking control and ownership of people's lives? Or is it letting them live their life the way they have determined to live it?

Not worthy of a response, sorry.

Can honestly say i never thought id go through life hearing "what is caring?"

 

[soulcougher73]

Seems like you are completely failing to address my question what why it is rational to give to strangers.

While trying to appeal to an emotional "its the christian thing to do" argument.

Sorry. Not sure i really know how to answer your question. Not sure i could articulate it well enough. And maybe its technically not rational in its truest sense.

Sorry ill bow out of this thread from now on. For me its hard to discuss this with people who find helping people or strangers with a "what's in it for me attitude".

 

[PrinceofWands]

By that same argument a person life has no objective value. You merely believe it is subjectively valuable. That's it.

Not quite. It means that personal beliefs cannot KNOW the objective value, any more than an individual can KNOW any objective truth. All we can do is perceive subjective values based upon our own biases and prejudice (or knowledge and experience if you'd rather, but those are actually exactly the same things).

The only safe arguments are:

There is no objective (value, truth, or anything else)

or

Everything is equal


Either way, his statement would fail.

 

[diesbudt]

And you are free to feel that way about it. You are NOT free to claim objective truth of your position however. Your time is NOT objectively valuable because of that, or any other reason. You BELIEVE it's SUBJECTIVELY valuable. That's it.

Meanwhile, I'm free to feel you're both ignorant, and a selfish asshole for your beliefs. I am NOT free to claim objective truth for my position however. It's merely how I feel about it, given my understanding of various topics and my own personal warrants. You can turn the tables and believe that makes me an idealistic fool, or a rude asshole, or anything else you'd like.

Fair enough argument on the ultimate conclusion track, so long as you concede that it concurrently dismisses the 'I make more therefore I can do more' line of argumentation you previously attempted. Either both are valid (all potentialities are equally possible), or neither are (potentiality is unknowable, and therefore unclaimable).

You are right in that everything we say is subjective. What I believe what my worth is, is what it is. What you think your worth is, is what it is. No one can change that, and neither of us can objectively say otherwise.

Making more also does not mean one can do more for society. A street bum can save a persons life just as much as a millionaire. Their paths are just usually different (One grabs a kid from a car on a street, someone may just speak to a person about to committ suicide convincing them not to, another spends $100,000 to make sure an operation that wouldnt have happened happens saving a life.)

However, it is crude to call people selfish that have the ambition to see how far they can grow in a business structure earning a lot more money, even if they help society. It is selfish if someone hogs everything they earn and never ever lifts a finger to help because they believe they are too important or valuable.

But someone doing a few small things that help out, is in no way less important than someone who dedicates their life to helping society. (If religious: Ask your god, I am certain he/she/it would agree on this. There isn't tiers in positive afterlife place (heaven) for people levels of helping society. Just one place for all "good" people)

It just takes 1 small step forward in society to cause a chain (as I said in my world peace example) that affects the whole of society. For better or for worse.

 

[PrinceofWands]

However, it is crude to call people selfish that have the ambition to see how far they can grow in a business structure earning a lot more money, even if they help society. It is selfish if someone hogs everything they earn and never ever lifts a finger to help because they believe they are too important or valuable.

But someone doing a few small things that help out, is in no way less important than someone who dedicates their life to helping society. (If religious: Ask your god, I am certain he/she/it would agree on this. There isn't tiers in positive afterlife place (heaven) for people levels of helping society. Just one place for all "good" people)

It just takes 1 small step forward in society to cause a chain (as I said in my world peace example) that affects the whole of society. For better or for worse.

I disagree. I think it's beneficial in that it reminds people that their perceptions are not absolute truth. That anything someone does, regardless of how 'good' they believe it to be, someone else is injured by it and finds it offensive. It keeps people from getting too certain about what they think/feel/do/say/believe, and THAT is probably one of the most important things out there.

I also think it's beneficial in that it's truth - at least from some perspective, and truths must always be shared. Until we have truth, we have nothing.

I also think it's essential because, quite frankly, without it people get run over. If people didn't speak out against unrestricted capitalism then that's what we'd have, and in my opinion it would utterly destroy the world. Therefore saying things like 'trying to maximize profits makes you an ignorant, selfish, son of a bitch' is, in essence, trying to save the planet and everyone on it. Likewise you can espouse the 'benefits' of capitalism because in your mind without it things would suck and so you believe you're really trying to save the world too. This is true of all things...they must be opposed, or they triumph.

Not religious, in fact I'm utterly and totally opposed to religion (though not belief). So, no go on that front.

 

[BoberFett]

Oh i agree. There is a lot screwed up that leads to the problem. School being too expensive, lawyers etc. But nothing wrong with a Dr. only making 50-100k range over their career. Especially when the work itself should be the rewarding part.

This is all my opinion though on what could create a better world/healthcare system. Get money out of lots of things and lets do things for the right reasons instead of greed.

LOL, are you serious?

 

[Retro Rob]

It isn't greedy to want things or go get bigger than normal things. It isn't selfish to take what you believe you deserve for yourself. And what to each individual person is valuable. I have an active life. I work out plenty, date around, volunteer once a week, lead a board gaming group, play video games, help a neigherbors son do HW. So my Time is very valuable. Therefor, $30000 a year won't cut it. Sorry, my time is much more valuable than that. Do I think I deserver $100000/yr? No, and I dont make that much. But I do believe my $7xxxx/yr is adequately compensating me for my time, and that what I do does make a small difference, though it isnt a direct difference in peoples lives, but an indirect one.

???

Those words aren't teeming with selfishness?

 

[BoberFett]

Strawman. Were talking about healthcare here. Lets stay on track.

Typically going into a healthcare profession is a calling in life for people. It's what they like to do. Take care of people. No reason insanes amount of money need to be involved in this. Taking care of people is like the ultimate thing in a lot of peoples eyes. I dont have it myself. Its not a field i would ever go into. But i have a lot of respect for people who do that truely love to take care of people and its not about the money for them. They would do it for a lot less.

I highly doubt and find it very unlikely someone would have a calling to be a janitor in life.

And why cant people have fun at work? Is that such a bad thing?

I know progress is scary to conservatives. But grow up. Weve been progressing since the dawn of man and will continue to into the future. Embrace it instead of fear it. We can become better.

"I'm not willing to do that work for shit wages myself, but goddammit other people better be, because I deserve to be taken care of by them."

You sound a lot like an entitled greedy righty...

 

[BoberFett]

I live VERY simply. Grow much of my own foods and spices/herbs. Make my own furniture as often as not. Gave up my car to walk/bike instead (though to fully disclose I then ended up sort of 'inheriting' another car which is now used for necessary long distance travel). I buy cheap, durable clothing about once every two years. I don't own a high def tv, even though movie watching is one of my big indulgences. Don't own a cell phone (though I have an old one on my brothers contract just so they can get a hold of me).

I volunteer tons of time, even spending two years volunteering my services (30+ hours/wk) as co-director of a national rights organization. I spend the rest of my time in educating myself or researching causes, or being politically active, or helping out wherever I find the need. Exactly how much more would you like me to do?

You do realize of course that if everyone lived like you the economy would collapse, right? This country is based on conspicuous unsustainable consumption. What do you think the stimulus was about?

 

[soulcougher73]

"I'm not willing to do that work for shit wages myself, but goddammit other people better be, because I deserve to be taken care of by them."

You sound a lot like an entitled greedy righty...

"goddammit I don't have to help design power plants and water treatment facilities around the world, but I do. Because people deserve to be taken care of."

And I don't make a third of what dr do and I'm perfectly happy helping make the world a better place.

 

[BoberFett]

"goddammit I don't have to help design power plants and water treatment facilities around the world, but I do. Because people deserve to be taken care of."

And I don't make a third of what dr do and I'm perfectly happy helping make the world a better place.

Then become a doctor if it's so easy and lucrative. If you're not willing to do it yourself, STFU.

 

[PrinceofWands]

You do realize of course that if everyone lived like you the economy would collapse, right? This country is based on conspicuous unsustainable consumption. What do you think the stimulus was about?

From that perspective, the country MUST collapse anyway since you acknowledge the unsustainable nature of such a plan.

If everyone lived like me the economy would stabilize (at a much lower point of equilibrium), and be sustainable for an exponentially longer period of time (it still must collapse if population increases, but it would last a LOT longer). It is the fallacy of growth (rather than sustaining) which destroys economies. This is exacerbated (but concealed) in America by deficit spending and debt accrual.

 

[soulcougher73]

Then become a doctor if it's so easy and lucrative. If you're not willing to do it yourself, STFU.

I dont have the Dr. calling. I dont care to help sick people. I want them helped, but im not the one to do it. As you can see i choose not to chase the money doing something im not meant to do.

You seem to only care about money. Why dont you become a brain surgeon? You could start on your own brain.

 

[Smoblikat]

Not sure if this has been posted yet:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/cancercure.asp

Fairly old, but pertains to the topic. This is what patents do, they are created and the milk the shit out of it until it ends and they either;evergreen (tweak it so slightly it doesnt change anything but the name, so they extend patents) or just ditch the drug and get it off the FDA approved list so noone can make it and use it as a replacment for the new "better, yet more expensive" cure.

 

[BoberFett]

From that perspective, the country MUST collapse anyway since you acknowledge the unsustainable nature of such a plan.

If everyone lived like me the economy would stabilize (at a much lower point of equilibrium), and be sustainable for an exponentially longer period of time (it still must collapse if population increases, but it would last a LOT longer). It is the fallacy of growth (rather than sustaining) which destroys economies. This is exacerbated (but concealed) in America by deficit spending and debt accrual.

Absolutely, I believe the first world (US, Europe, Japan) is headed for an inevitable crash of epic proportions. Just like water, the world economy has to reach it's natural level. The rest of the world can't reach our lifestyle, so ours will have to come down. All the bullshit coming out of politician's mouths from both sides of the aisle is just telling people what they want to hear, that everything will be OK if we just vote for them. Bullshit. We're fucked, so we might as well get used to the idea. Stimulus, tax cuts, deficits, it's all bullshit.

 

[BoberFett]

I dont have the Dr. calling. I dont care to help sick people. I want them helped, but im not the one to do it. As you can see i choose not to chase the money doing something im not meant to do.

You seem to only care about money. Why dont you become a brain surgeon? You could start on your own brain.

OK, so you're taking the STFU option? Please start immediately.

 

[Matt1970]

Im starting to believe Moony is onto something when he says conservatives have defective brains. They just dont work right, but the defective ones dont know they are defective.

But nothing wrong with a Dr. only making 50-100k range over their career. Especially when the work itself should be the rewarding part.

You think we have a brain defect but you think someone is going to go through 8 years of higher education and then a 5 year residency to only make 50K/Year?

BUHWAHAHAHAH

 

[1prophet]

Physicians, who have over a decade of training before they can even practice on their own, should work for purely benevolent reasons while you, having almost certainly far less training, have a right to make money for your troubles? :hmm:

How about the government pays for training and in return they have to agree to take on a certain number of patients pro bono.

 

[PrinceofWands]

You think we have a brain defect but you think someone is going to go through 8 years of higher education and then a 5 year residency to only make 50K/Year?

BUHWAHAHAHAH

Teachers go through 5-6 years minimum, then tons of additional education and ongoing classes to start at 30k/yr when they can even find a 1.0 (which isn't often).

People don't go into calling professions for money. This has been proved beyond doubt in numerous studies. Callings aren't jobs, they're callings. That's sort of why they're called that.