The law vs the greater good

[PrinceofWands]

hahahaha... you must live in an interesting fantasy world.

Yes, it's called rational and moral...two things almost totally missing from most of the planet.

 

[diesbudt]

Communism works in theory the same way flying by jumping off a cliff works in theory; damn gravity getting in the way

Normally when you say something works "in theory" it means that it actually makes sense that it should work. Saying the something will work assuming you ignore reality means it will work "in fantasy", not "in theory".

Well government classes coined the term "Theoretical Communism" to explain what communism would be like in perfect settings. Plus it is still actually a theory. We cant prove yay/nay what would happen in those settings as we will never get to a point in those settings.

Hey, I can fly jumping off a cliff. I just have to miss the ground when I throw myself at it.

Gravity is a cruel mistress.

 

[PrinceofWands]

He is acting like a communist.

Theoretically it is the best economical goverment structure. In which government is no where involved and everyone does everything for everyone with no need of compensation and everyone is happy about it. Theoretically it works. But in practically, since we as a human species have drives and ambitions, this can never happen.

Also with no competition driven with ambition the innovations and technological advances would be much less invoking and much slower.

This is the strength of businesses and capitialism. It forces companies to consistantly fund and work for the "next" thing in innovation. Either a cheaper product, a better product or both. However, its strength is its weakness, in which the populace can suffer if too much competition happens hurting the prices of stuff.

Communism is imposed. Moral living is freely offered.

 

[Matt1970]

Untill Unicef gets into the drug making business, this is all we got.

 

[diesbudt]

Communism is imposed. Moral living is freely offered.

Yet moral living is limited to what is required to survive as an individual first.

If an individual who tries to save the world/community dies, because he didn't reguard saving himself first, The world/community is screwed as a whole. However, if he spends energy, time, and money to take care of himself first (both physically and psycologically, via wealth/happiness/health) he will be fine enough and able to save the portion of the world/community that is still around.

Everything in this world has opportunity costs (business term). You have to give up something for something. Trying to be the "moral beacon" would have such high cost everywhere else you wouldnt be healthy enough in a meatphoric way to truly help people. So you have to balance it.

And I am sorry, but if I work, even to help people I require compensation. Sure I can feel rewarding what I do, and I actually do. But if I don't get compensated to what I feel I deserve. I can help other people for a higher compensation, thanks to capitalism. So I can have best of both worlds.

 

[nehalem256]

How many private sector drugs are largely useless, or even counter-productive, compared to the world-impacting necessity of a polio vaccine, or penicillin, or similar?

Are you saying having larger thicker eye lashes is not important

Why do you hate people who suffer from insufficient eye lashes?

http://www.latisse.com/

 

[soulcougher73]

What you're basically saying is "you can fight against human nature wired into humans for hundreds of thousands of years, or you can naively think people will change magically".

No only about 50% such as yourself are conservative and cant fathom anything other than they've been shown in life.

Im starting to believe Moony is onto something when he says conservatives have defective brains. They just dont work right, but the defective ones dont know they are defective.

 

[nehalem256]

No only about 50% such as yourself are conservative and cant fathom anything other than they've been shown in life.

Im starting to believe Moony is onto something when he says conservatives have defective brains. They just dont work right, but the defective ones dont know they are defective.

I find it funny that liberals are essentially arguing against the theory of evolution.

There are clear evolutionary reasons to care little for the concerns of strangers.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Does stealing promote the greater good of the community?

I believe in this case, yes it does.

No, it doesn't promote the greater good because you are undermining the system which allows new drugs to be created. You can't use a utilitarian argument to justify destroying the patent system, because it will cause more harm than good in the long run. Whatever ethical framework you chose, patents are a good thing.

 

[spacejamz]

Yes, it's called rational and moral...two things almost totally missing from most of the planet.

I wonder why all of the 'moral' people here haven't given up all of their worldly possessions and give the proceeds to charity and spend all of their free time helping out in the local soup kitchen since they have already rationalized that the rest of us are just greedy and selfish...

But that would mean putting your money (no pun intended) where your mouth is...

Or am I just misunderstanding the definition of 'moral'? Or is being 'moral' just a part time thing that I should do only it suits me (i.e., making fun of others on internet forums)???

 

[soulcougher73]

You seem to think that people will evolve to work for fun. Funny how you seem to think Doctors will do that. But what about Janitors and Waiters and Garbage men. Maybe they should work for the sheer joy of the job too

Strawman. Were talking about healthcare here. Lets stay on track.

Typically going into a healthcare profession is a calling in life for people. It's what they like to do. Take care of people. No reason insanes amount of money need to be involved in this. Taking care of people is like the ultimate thing in a lot of peoples eyes. I dont have it myself. Its not a field i would ever go into. But i have a lot of respect for people who do that truely love to take care of people and its not about the money for them. They would do it for a lot less.

I highly doubt and find it very unlikely someone would have a calling to be a janitor in life.

And why cant people have fun at work? Is that such a bad thing?

I know progress is scary to conservatives. But grow up. Weve been progressing since the dawn of man and will continue to into the future. Embrace it instead of fear it. We can become better.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Yet moral living is limited to what is required to survive as an individual first.

If an individual who tries to save the world/community dies, because he didn't reguard saving himself first, The world/community is screwed as a whole. However, if he spends energy, time, and money to take care of himself first (both physically and psycologically, via wealth/happiness/health) he will be fine enough and able to save the portion of the world/community that is still around.

Everything in this world has opportunity costs (business term). You have to give up something for something. Trying to be the "moral beacon" would have such high cost everywhere else you wouldnt be healthy enough in a meatphoric way to truly help people. So you have to balance it.

And I am sorry, but if I work, even to help people I require compensation. Sure I can feel rewarding what I do, and I actually do. But if I don't get compensated to what I feel I deserve. I can help other people for a higher compensation, thanks to capitalism. So I can have best of both worlds.

Survival = $15-30,000 in most of America. In fact, that's not merely survival, but a pretty decent living. 55% of all Americans make this or less, so there is absolute certainty that it is possible. Most of the world lives on a fraction of this, showing that in fact we're probably being highly inefficient even at these levels.

If your 'moral individual' attempts to earn more than is necessary it MUST, by factual necessity, pull the money from someone else. In our highly selfish, unregulated capitalist society those with extra money almost never surrender it willingly, meaning that most shifts in wealth/income occur entirely within the bottom quintile or two. Now, since ability/potential are in no real way related to income it is just as likely that he/she is taking money from the next Jonas Salk as from the next gangbanger...meaning that his 'moral act' has resulted in a net loss for society. It becomes doubly interesting to consider that the person he/she relegated to abject poverty, preventing their success in life, might well be the person who could have discovered a cure for the disease or social problem that would one day prematurely end their own existence.

There's nothing wrong with being compensated. I require compensation myself. There is EVERYTHING wrong with being unduly compensated. That's why I agree to work for next to nothing so long as the cause is good, or the job good.

Unless your direct, unique participation was VITAL in saving lives or propelling humanity to a higher state you aren't worth once fucking cent more than any other person on the planet, including a bum on the street. Any penny you take from circulation is one that might have gone to someone better, or in more need, or more vital than yourself. THERE's your opportunity costs right there.

 

[soulcougher73]

As is your fantasy that doctors should work for the good feelings.

Never said they should work for free.

 

[Anarchist420]

Patents don't help innovation. I don't know that they hurt it, but I know that they definitely dont help it.

To illustrate my point, 9% of new drugs from 1960-1980 were created in Italy and during that time it had one of the weakest patent systems in the world... then keep in mind that Italy contained well less than 9% of the world's population.

Edit it was 1978 not 1980.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Communism works in theory the same way flying by jumping off a cliff works in theory; damn gravity getting in the way

Normally when you say something works "in theory" it means that it actually makes sense that it should work. Saying the something will work assuming you ignore reality means it will work "in fantasy", not "in theory".

Well said. The "communism works in theory" line drives me nuts. You can't make a bunch of demonstrably incorrect assumptions about the way humans that behave and then claim something works in theory. By that definition every political / economic system works in theory.

 

[soulcougher73]

I find it funny that liberals are essentially arguing against the theory of evolution.

There are clear evolutionary reasons to care little for the concerns of strangers.

I am? I am saying we can evolve and become better people. How is that arguing against it?

Well were all humans and we all have to live on the same planet. To logical rational smart people that means you should care about other humans.

What are you a caveman?

 

[PrinceofWands]

I wonder why all of the 'moral' people here haven't given up all of their worldly possessions and give the proceeds to charity and spend all of their free time helping out in the local soup kitchen since they have already rationalized that the rest of us are just greedy and selfish...

But that would mean putting your money (no pun intended) where your mouth is...

Or am I just misunderstanding the definition of 'moral'? Or is being 'moral' just a part time thing that I should do only it suits me (i.e., making fun of others on internet forums)???

I live VERY simply. Grow much of my own foods and spices/herbs. Make my own furniture as often as not. Gave up my car to walk/bike instead (though to fully disclose I then ended up sort of 'inheriting' another car which is now used for necessary long distance travel). I buy cheap, durable clothing about once every two years. I don't own a high def tv, even though movie watching is one of my big indulgences. Don't own a cell phone (though I have an old one on my brothers contract just so they can get a hold of me).

I volunteer tons of time, even spending two years volunteering my services (30+ hours/wk) as co-director of a national rights organization. I spend the rest of my time in educating myself or researching causes, or being politically active, or helping out wherever I find the need. Exactly how much more would you like me to do?

 

[CPA]

Like universal healthcare coverage at half the cost? Horrible. Why can't sick people just learn to die? - Republicans.

Half the cost? LOL, too funny.

One of the main liberal arguments for universal healthcare was that healthcare was 16% of GDP under the current "free market" system and that was just too damn high. Get back to me in a couple years and let's see where is stands then. My guess is higher than that.

 

[nehalem256]

I am? I am saying we can evolve and become better people. How is that arguing against it?

Well were all humans and we all have to live on the same planet. To logical rational smart people that means you should care about other humans.

What are you a caveman?

What is rational about caring about strangers that have ~0% chance of paying you back in kind?

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Because without money to pay for the R&D, the drug won't even exist and then neither the peasant nor anyone else will have access to it. What is better for the greater good, some having access to it, or none having access to it?

Thus furthering the right wing lie of scarcity. They make you believe nothing would happen without them pulling the strings, and discredit the innovators who actually make these things happen, and tell you that you NEED THEM in order to survive when in fact THEY NEED YOU to continue to thrive. It is BAILOUT ideaology at it's worst.

These are the same people that tell you Americans are lazy when we work through lunch and work 50-60+ hours for our 40 hour salaries, easily outworking any European nation. These are the same people that tell you that they need to offshore and outsource all of the jobs in the name of COST and PRODUCTIVITY, meanwhile they cash in on record profits year after year while we all struggle to survive in a country where the PRICE of goods has doubled DESPITE their huge cost cutting and productivity "boosting" measures!

Wake up people, economics is not real. It is the wool being pulled over your eyes to tell you that you are too stupid to understand and that you deserve to have less. Meanwhile, they are offshoring enough money to buy entire countries and laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[nehalem256]

Half the cost? LOL, too funny.

One of the main liberal arguments for universal healthcare was that healthcare was 16% of GDP under the current "free market" system and that was just too damn high. Get back to me in a couple years and let's see where is stands then. My guess is higher than that.

The funny thing is that ~half of that 16% is already government spending. So they apparently think that the government should be able to cover everyone with out spending an additional penny

 

[CPA]

I am? I am saying we can evolve and become better people. How is that arguing against it?

Well were all humans and we all have to live on the same planet. To logical rational smart people that means you should care about other humans.

What are you a caveman?

And what is "caring"? Is it taking control and ownership of people's lives? Or is it letting them live their life the way they have determined to live it?

 

[PrinceofWands]

What is rational about caring about strangers that have ~0% chance of paying you back in kind?

Giving causes a chemical reaction in the giver which is beneficial and enjoyable. Giving is LITERALLY its own reward. It's equivalent to pushing the morphine drip button.

Emotional benefits can be repaid, regardless of economic condition, thereby meaning that the recipient CAN pay you back 'in kind'.

 

[diesbudt]

I live VERY simply. Grow much of my own foods and spices/herbs. Make my own furniture as often as not. Gave up my car to walk/bike instead (though to fully disclose I then ended up sort of 'inheriting' another car which is now used for necessary long distance travel). I buy cheap, durable clothing about once every two years. I don't own a high def tv, even though movie watching is one of my big indulgences. Don't own a cell phone (though I have an old one on my brothers contract just so they can get a hold of me).

I volunteer tons of time, even spending two years volunteering my services (30+ hours/wk) as co-director of a national rights organization. I spend the rest of my time in educating myself or researching causes, or being politically active, or helping out wherever I find the need. Exactly how much more would you like me to do?

You are trying to compare uncomparable things. Any help to the world is good, and no better than anyone elses contributions.

Maybe I help a lady across the street. Only thing I will ever do nice in my life. That lady, who didnt die because i helped her across the street, births a child. Who ends up birthing a child that solves the world hunger issues and starts framework for world peace.

Maybe you do all you said above, yet one time while volunteering you angered someone, who 10+ years from now starts a massacre and kills 20+ people.

Who helps more on society? Me or you?

You cannot quantify or qualify what is a better or good for society until you see it play out fully. Sometimes the worst consequences come about because of the best intentions.

It isn't greedy to want things or go get bigger than normal things. It isn't selfish to take what you believe you deserve for yourself. And what to each individual person is valuable. I have an active life. I work out plenty, date around, volunteer once a week, lead a board gaming group, play video games, help a neigherbors son do HW. So my Time is very valuable. Therefor, $30000 a year won't cut it. Sorry, my time is much more valuable than that. Do I think I deserver $100000/yr? No, and I dont make that much. But I do believe my $7xxxx/yr is adequately compensating me for my time, and that what I do does make a small difference, though it isnt a direct difference in peoples lives, but an indirect one.

 

[soulcougher73]

What is rational about caring about strangers that have ~0% chance of paying you back in kind?

Oh so its about what can i get out of it. My bad. Been doing it wrong all these years.

So glad im not a Christian..id surely be going to hell with the life ive lived.