The law vs the greater good

[CycloWizard]

Well if it is this country that allows him to make all that money he most certainly DOES owe something to the rest of us. Your mindset is flawed in that you do not care about this country at all. I find that to be more than a little disturbing.

You're basically saying it is ok to destroy the fabric of this country for profit, which is a disgusting notion. Your parents and grandparents would be ashamed of you if you are truly an American, which I seriously quesiton at this point.

The irony is that your statements are completely anti-American in my mind. Perhaps that's because I don't believe in an America that owns its people and all of the rewards for its citizens' hard work. I believe in an America where people are free to make or lose their own fortunes. The making of a fortune occurs in parallel with an improvement of the life of the customer (at least from the customer's perspective). Nowhere is this more true than in the case of pharmaceutical companies, where the customer could actually die if the drug company had failed. You are anti-American because you want to penalize the drug company for saving your life. My parents and grandparents fought wars against your evil concept of what a nation should be and I know plenty of eastern Europeans who would be happy to fight you to the death to prevent your version of America from taking hold.

 

[CycloWizard]

I don't think it is unfair either if they turn around... IF they do.

What gets most people is that they become victims of bad leadership and get their job/pay cut.

If losses, for instance, justify paycuts, then no bonuses should be given out to anyone. He may still have done a good job, but so have the guys on the bottom. If they want to reward hard work and effort (even though the CEO has much more responsibility and should get more than the lower-level workers) they should do it across the board.

That's what I don't get sometimes to be honest.

This comes back to my original point: it's none of my business what a company does with its money because it's not my money. Try looking at the perceived problem from that perspective. This whole collectivism thing going on in the US right now where Obama is telling everyone that all of the money in circulation really belongs to the people (and by people, he means government) is pervasive in the public mindset. It's poisoning this nation's people against business. The notion of private property is almost gone. The American Dream is tied to its fate.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

The irony is that your statements are completely anti-American in my mind. Perhaps that's because I don't believe in an America that owns its people and all of the rewards for its citizens' hard work. I believe in an America where people are free to make or lose their own fortunes. The making of a fortune occurs in parallel with an improvement of the life of the customer (at least from the customer's perspective). Nowhere is this more true than in the case of pharmaceutical companies, where the customer could actually die if the drug company had failed. You are anti-American because you want to penalize the drug company for saving your life. My parents and grandparents fought wars against your evil concept of what a nation should be and I know plenty of eastern Europeans who would be happy to fight you to the death to prevent your version of America from taking hold.

No you don't believe in America where people should make or lose thier own fortunes, because only certain people are allowed to fail. Remember the bailout? Your version of capitalism is a farce sold to the meek and unassuming that never question those they consider smarter than them in order to further your own agenda. My grandfather fought in WW2, what does that have to do with anything? I would fight for this country even in the state it is in right now, but your ideas are a fallacy.

If we ran this country the way you say it is run then GM would be out of business, so would most of Wall Street, yet here they are and their CEO's are making more money after almost running them into the ground than they did before. What we have is Country Club Capitalism (which is really just veiled Socialism), where the friends of the top people are bailed out and given bonuses while the little guys get kicked to the curb.

I don't want drug companies to be penalized for anything, I just want all companies to set prices based on actual economics and not the bullshit we have in this country now. I could go on and on about this and how wrong you are, but the truth is you are totally brainwashed by their corporate agenda bullshit so why waste my time?

 

[Retro Rob]

This comes back to my original point: it's none of my business what a company does with its money because it's not my money. Try looking at the perceived problem from that perspective. This whole collectivism thing going on in the US right now where Obama is telling everyone that all of the money in circulation really belongs to the people (and by people, he means government) is pervasive in the public mindset. It's poisoning this nation's people against business. The notion of private property is almost gone. The American Dream is tied to its fate.

All I am asking is what's wrong being a bit more fair? The business is making more and execs get a piece of that, why not give the hard-working hourly people a little more too? Are we not contributing? If the business is losing, we can be understanding when we are showed valid reasons why a pay freeze/cut/layoff has to be done to keep the place from closing and everyone's out of work.

I am not asking for a businesses to run on compassion, but not operating on compassion doesn't mean being completely cold-hearted, either.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

All I am asking is what's wrong being a bit more fair? The business is making more and execs get a piece of that, why not give the hard-working hourly people a little more too? Are we not contributing? If the business is losing, we can be understanding when we are showed valid reasons why a pay freeze/cut/layoff has to be done to keep the place from closing and everyone's out of work.

I am not asking for a businesses to run on compassion, but not operating on compassion doesn't mean being completely cold-hearted, either.

I call it Country Club Calculator Capitalism.

 

[CycloWizard]

No you don't believe in America where people should make or lose thier own fortunes, because only certain people are allowed to fail. Remember the bailout? Your version of capitalism is a farce sold to the meek and unassuming that never question those they consider smarter than them in order to further your own agenda. My grandfather fought in WW2, what does that have to do with anything? I would fight for this country even in the state it is in right now, but your ideas are a fallacy.

If we ran this country the way you say it is run then GM would be out of business, so would most of Wall Street, yet here they are and their CEO's are making more money after almost running them into the ground than they did before. What we have is Country Club Capitalism (which is really just veiled Socialism), where the friends of the top people are bailed out and given bonuses while the little guys get kicked to the curb.

I don't want drug companies to be penalized for anything, I just want all companies to set prices based on actual economics and not the bullshit we have in this country now. I could go on and on about this and how wrong you are, but the truth is you are totally brainwashed by their corporate agenda bullshit so why waste my time?

You complain first that only some people are allowed to fail. Your next paragraph completely contradicts that by saying that preventing GM from failing was a good thing. You then claim to want capitalism while decrying it out of the other side of your mouth. You don't know what you think. Until you figure that out, please don't even pretend to know what I think. I would have been perfectly happy had our government stayed the hell out of the economy. All of these bailouts are nonsense. Capitalism requires failures. It requires governments to butt out. You want the opposite. Please stop pretending otherwise, and certainly stop pretending to have some profound intellect and insight that I could never hope to achieve. You are just as partisan as the other zombies in this forum and will vote for one of your corporate sponsors in the coming presidential election. That being the case, you have no room to lecture anyone on being brainwashed.

 

[CycloWizard]

All I am asking is what's wrong being a bit more fair? The business is making more and execs get a piece of that, why not give the hard-working hourly people a little more too? Are we not contributing? If the business is losing, we can be understanding when we are showed valid reasons why a pay freeze/cut/layoff has to be done to keep the place from closing and everyone's out of work.

I am not asking for a businesses to run on compassion, but not operating on compassion doesn't mean being completely cold-hearted, either.

What's fair? Who decides? Why should you, an outsider, have any say in how a company spends its money? Should I be able to tell you how to spend your money? Should the government be able to tell you how to spend your money? My argument is simply that the answer to all of these questions is no, it's none of my damn business. If a company runs itself in such an evil way as you suggest, it will certainly go out of business. The only exception is when government decides that it can't be allowed to go out of business - exactly why we are in such a shitty mess today.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

You complain first that only some people are allowed to fail. Your next paragraph completely contradicts that by saying that preventing GM from failing was a good thing. You then claim to want capitalism while decrying it out of the other side of your mouth. You don't know what you think. Until you figure that out, please don't even pretend to know what I think. I would have been perfectly happy had our government stayed the hell out of the economy. All of these bailouts are nonsense. Capitalism requires failures. It requires governments to butt out. You want the opposite. Please stop pretending otherwise, and certainly stop pretending to have some profound intellect and insight that I could never hope to achieve. You are just as partisan as the other zombies in this forum and will vote for one of your corporate sponsors in the coming presidential election. That being the case, you have no room to lecture anyone on being brainwashed.

I never claimed saving GM was a good thing, just that it happened and in happening your vision of capitalism in this country is false. Please try not to troll so hard.

 

[CycloWizard]

I never claimed saving GM was a good thing, just that it happened and in happening your vision of capitalism in this country is false. Please try not to troll so hard.

You have your head up your ass so far that you can only see the way things are and confuse that with the way things should be. The way things are now sucks. Why do you want to perpetuate them? I simply point the way to the way things should be.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

You have your head up your ass so far that you can only see the way things are and confuse that with the way things should be. The way things are now sucks. Why do you want to perpetuate them? I simply point the way to the way things should be.

Even with my head that far up my ass I can still smell your breath. The way things should be is how they were before CEO's decided they were worth 50-100 times what they used to be.

 

[Retro Rob]

What's fair? Who decides? Why should you, an outsider, have any say in how a company spends its money? Should I be able to tell you how to spend your money? Should the government be able to tell you how to spend your money? My argument is simply that the answer to all of these questions is no, it's none of my damn business. If a company runs itself in such an evil way as you suggest, it will certainly go out of business. The only exception is when government decides that it can't be allowed to go out of business - exactly why we are in such a shitty mess today.

You're good at dodging direct questions...

I'm done with you...

I call it Country Club Calculator Capitalism.

lol

 

[Retro Rob]

What's fair? Who decides? Why should you, an outsider, have any say in how a company spends its money? Should I be able to tell you how to spend your money? Should the government be able to tell you how to spend your money? My argument is simply that the answer to all of these questions is no, it's none of my damn business. If a company runs itself in such an evil way as you suggest, it will certainly go out of business. The only exception is when government decides that it can't be allowed to go out of business - exactly why we are in such a shitty mess today.

For the record, I am not saying you're wrong in what you say, though.

 

[CycloWizard]

For the record, I am not saying you're wrong in what you say, though.

For the record, you're not saying anything. You ask the same nonsensical question over and over again and are never satisfied with my answer that your question has no answer. It has no answer because you're asking the wrong question. You're asking the wrong question because you've been taught that reality is subjective. Since reality is not subjective, your question has no answer. It's the same as me asking you, "Which is better: 0 or 1?"

 

[Retro Rob]

For the record, you're not saying anything. You ask the same nonsensical question over and over again and are never satisfied with my answer that your question has no answer. It has no answer because you're asking the wrong question. You're asking the wrong question because you've been taught that reality is subjective. Since reality is not subjective, your question has no answer. It's the same as me asking you, "Which is better: 0 or 1?"

1 is better, fyi...

 

[CycloWizard]

Even with my head that far up my ass I can still smell your breath. The way things should be is how they were before CEO's decided they were worth 50-100 times what they used to be.

That's a point I've never argued with. The only point we seem to disagree on is how best to achieve that. I look at the current situation and see that it has come about as government interferes more and more in the markets. You see the same situation and think that more government interference can solve the problem. Maybe you're right. But if I'm right, your solution will simply make things much worse. If you really want to return to the good old days, why wouldn't you want to use the rulebook which governed the game during the good old days?

 

[CycloWizard]

1 is better, fyi...

What if I was asking how many honey badgers you want dropped into your sleeping bag tonight?

 

[Retro Rob]

What if I was asking how many honey badgers you want dropped into your sleeping bag tonight?

1 is enough. I get along quite well with them.....

 

[Pr0d1gy]

That's a point I've never argued with. The only point we seem to disagree on is how best to achieve that. I look at the current situation and see that it has come about as government interferes more and more in the markets. You see the same situation and think that more government interference can solve the problem. Maybe you're right. But if I'm right, your solution will simply make things much worse. If you really want to return to the good old days, why wouldn't you want to use the rulebook which governed the game during the good old days?

The good ole days was from 1940ish to 1999ish, and throughout that point things fluctuated greatly but for the most part people did not make nearly as much as current CEO's do and the top earners paid much more in taxes (honestly they paid very high taxes for most of that period). I am not looking for government to run everything, as I am a fiscal conservative, I just took exception to your statement that these people are worth whatever they make. Do you really think Romney was worth tens of millions while he ran KayBee Toys into the ground? Do you really think other CEO's are worth tens of millions because they sent millions of jobs out of this country, cut health insurance as a standard practice, etc etc etc?

THAT is the point I have been making.

 

[CycloWizard]

The good ole days was from 1940ish to 1999ish, and throughout that point things fluctuated greatly but for the most part people did not make nearly as much as current CEO's do and the top earners paid much more in taxes (honestly they paid very high taxes for most of that period). I am not looking for government to run everything, as I am a fiscal conservative, I just took exception to your statement that these people are worth whatever they make. Do you really think Romney was worth tens of millions while he ran KayBee Toys into the ground? Do you really think other CEO's are worth tens of millions because they sent millions of jobs out of this country, cut health insurance as a standard practice, etc etc etc?

THAT is the point I have been making.

I certainly never said anything about what CEOs are worth, nor did you ever say anything resembling the above previously. Your argument with me began here, which you promptly followed up here with your thesis statement:

Of course what is needed could be a subjective discussion, but you don't NEED 100k a year to live very comfortably in this country.

I guess that means you've completely changed your mind as a result of this conversation. Congratulations - you're not a zombie. :thumbsup:

 

[Pr0d1gy]

I certainly never said anything about what CEOs are worth, nor did you ever say anything resembling the above previously. Your argument with me began here, which you promptly followed up here with your thesis statement:

I guess that means you've completely changed your mind as a result of this conversation. Congratulations - you're not a zombie. :thumbsup:

Really? Now you're going stalker on me? Wow, troll away dude, troll away.....*sigh*

 

[diesbudt]

The good ole days was from 1940ish to 1999ish, and throughout that point things fluctuated greatly but for the most part people did not make nearly as much as current CEO's do and the top earners paid much more in taxes (honestly they paid very high taxes for most of that period). I am not looking for government to run everything, as I am a fiscal conservative, I just took exception to your statement that these people are worth whatever they make. Do you really think Romney was worth tens of millions while he ran KayBee Toys into the ground? Do you really think other CEO's are worth tens of millions because they sent millions of jobs out of this country, cut health insurance as a standard practice, etc etc etc?

THAT is the point I have been making.

Think of one thing that changed how society lived in those last 10 years of that time period. It is the sole reason so many things change, and companies go under or super succeed by using it to any new/best potential.

 

[CycloWizard]

Really? Now you're going stalker on me? Wow, troll away dude, troll away.....*sigh*

I don't think those words - stalker, troll - mean what you think they mean. I was actually trying to give you credit for adapting your opinion to reality rather than being completely obstinate.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

I don't think those words - stalker, troll - mean what you think they mean. I was actually trying to give you credit for adapting your opinion to reality rather than being completely obstinate.

No, you were trying to debase my argument from earlier by twisting my argument I was just using. That is trolling through deception and stalking by carrying an older statement into a new discussion.

 

[CycloWizard]

No, you were trying to debase my argument from earlier by twisting my argument I was just using. That is trolling through deception and stalking by carrying an older statement into a new discussion.

It's the same discussion. Unfortunately, you had a bout of schizophrenia in there and decided that I had made an argument which I've never made. In any case, I retract any positive statements I made about you and profusely apologize for stating that you are not a zombie.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

It's the same discussion. Unfortunately, you had a bout of schizophrenia in there and decided that I had made an argument which I've never made. In any case, I retract any positive statements I made about you and profusely apologize for stating that you are not a zombie.

Actually, we were talking about greed in that discussion YESTERDAY:

I define greed the same way Merriam-Webster does:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed


Of course what is needed could be a subjective discussion, but you don't NEED 100k a year to live very comfortably in this country.

The discussion we have been having today is whether these CEO's making tens of millions of dollars while their companies are begging us for bailouts are worth the money they are making, which you asserted they WERE WORTH IT.

Look man, you're obviously here to troll and it's getting tiresome pointing out your inadequacies and lies. So, the floor is yours Conyesman.