The Jussie Smollett Affair

[CZroe]

The only one we know for sure is #3. GZ had numerous violent run-ins with a gun since the trial. We don't know if the Covington Kids are racist. BTW - I thought kids should be seen and not heard...couch...cough...Greta...cough.

I have just as big a problem with antisemitism as I do with racism. Not just a one trick narrative, Skippy.

So GZ is a racist murderer because he has other issues? News to me. No one said he was a saint. I said he was demonstrably not a racist murderer. Heck, I almost expect it after someone's life got turned upside-down like him with murderous stalkers motivated by lies out to get him. Does it justify his domestic violence? No, but it also doesn't mean he was a racist murderer. The evidence indisputably proves he was not. Yes, I said "indisputably," even though you are disputing it right now. That's because you are ignoring the facts and forming a narrative based on unrelated non-racial incidents. Did you cheer when that Appleperson guy put a bullet through GZ's Honda Ridgeline? Did you then blame GZ for that violence too? A lot of people in that thread did... and they were just as delusional.

I've never said anything about Greta and don't even know what your coughing fit is about. You are manufacturing contradictions where there are none by putting words in people's mouths so that you can claim a contradiction and dismiss people wholesale without addressing their points. Again, this is not how you change minds. This is not how you convince people. This is not how you debate. I would not be proud of that kind of arguing.

 

[CZroe]

I mean all you have to do to see what a horrible and potentially violent person George Zimmerman was/is is to look at, well, basically everything he's done since that incident. He's pretty obviously a racist with serious anger management problems and a sadistic streak.

I challenge anyone to read this and come away with the impression that our good friend George is anything other than a disturbed individual.

George Zimmerman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

*facepalm*

No. Zimmerman is decidedly NOT racist. There is a mountain of evidence for this and not a shred to suggest otherwise, yet here you are injecting your own narrative between the lines. What you linked does not say what you suggest it says... AT ALL.

 

[Vic]

They absolutely would, and that is the fatal conceit of your argument. You deluded yourself into thinking otherwise and are so confident in your belief that you actually believe this thought experiment would show something revealing instead of a truth you've already rejected.

Zimmerman was not a bloodthirsty racist murderer.
The Covington Catholic kids were not racists harassing a Native American.
Jussie Smollet was not a hate crime victim.
...and, most of all, the people who disagree with you politically do not automatically care less when you reverse the races. On the other hand, those perpetuating this narrative care DECIDEDLY less. It's demonstrable. Here you aou are inadvertently proving it right now by trying to say that this should be cared about less now than before the hoax was revealed.

You might want to double check your words here. I said I thought Smollett was a non-issue before it was revealed as a hoax. My concern then was why it was so important for the conservative crowd to believe it was a hoax, before anything had been established. Similarly, in the Covington thread, my concern there was why the conservatives believed that the Native American must have done something wrong, which is what they kept saying (and some are still saying). I never once accused MAGA hat kid of any wrongdoing. And congrats on your straw men regarding Zimmerman, I have never once said that he is a "bloodthirsty racist murderer." Just that if he were black, and Martin had been white, that he would be in prison now. And you know that's true.

And extra congrats on being one of the few conservatives left who doesn't base their moral decisions strictly on the racial, cultural, or political identities of the persons in the narrative. But you really should take a closer look around at the company you're keeping, because your statement that they care less about such things is completely unsupported.

 

[fskimospy]

*facepalm*

No. Zimmerman is decidedly NOT racist. There is a mountain of evidence for this and not a shred to suggest otherwise, yet here you are injecting your own narrative between the lines. What you linked does not say what you suggest it says... AT ALL.

So to be clear when he posted semi-nudes of his ex girlfriend, doxxing her and saying she slept with a 'dirty Muslim' your argument is that he's simply a religious bigot instead of a racist?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/12/03/george-zimmerman-was-suspended-from-twitter-after-doxing-an-alleged-ex-girlfriend/

In the tweets, which are now inaccessible along with Zimmerman’s entire Twitter account, Zimmerman accused the woman of sleeping with a “dirty Muslim” and of stealing from him. The tweets were accompanied by two photographs of a semi-nude woman. His account was suspended shortly after the tweets — which we’re not reproducing here — were posted.

 

[Vic]

*facepalm*

No. Zimmerman is decidedly NOT racist. There is a mountain of evidence for this and not a shred to suggest otherwise, yet here you are injecting your own narrative between the lines. What you linked does not say what you suggest it says... AT ALL.

I'd be interested to see this 'mountain of evidence,' but... why is it even relevant if Zimmerman is a racist or not? Why is it so important to you that he isn't? The basis of my opinion of the whole Zimmerman/Martin affair has nothing to do with either of their personal opinions.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The only one we know for sure is #3. GZ had numerous violent run-ins with a gun since the trial. We don't know if the Covington Kids are racist. BTW - I thought kids should be seen and not heard...couch...cough...Greta...cough.

I have just as big a problem with antisemitism as I do with racism. Not just a one trick narrative, Skippy.

God dude... you... really.... have some kind of mental disorder.

 

[Vic]

So to be clear when he posted semi-nudes of his ex girlfriend, doxxing her and saying she slept with a 'dirty Muslim' your argument is that he's simply a religious bigot instead of a racist?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/12/03/george-zimmerman-was-suspended-from-twitter-after-doxing-an-alleged-ex-girlfriend/

Cmon Spy, it's all because conservatives don't care about these things, can't you see? Which is why LaVoy Finnicum was a Patriot and Tamir Rice was a thug. And why Sandy Hook was staged by crisis actors, but not San Bernardino. And why welfare queens are an outrage, but poor farmers need all the govt welfare in the world. And why Obama had to provide his birth certificate. And so forth. All because conservatives don't care one wit about identity politics.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I mean at this point the shift is several decades old. Regardless, where conservatives stand today they affirmatively support the police unions that enable criminal activity by law enforcement and they actively work to block accountability measures like say, not having the police discipline themselves.

It comes down to tribalism. As I said, conservatives have a mostly positive perception of police and have probably not had those types of encounters with them to the extent that what you see as a huge problem they can’t even relate to.

It doesn't matter if it's a logical fallacy or not because I wasn't engaging in it. In order to engage in it I would need to be attempting to discredit the argument against Smollett by pointing out hypocrisy.

It’s more of a “yeah but” form of whataboutism. You’re saying, yeah I agree that Smollet did something wrong, but what about those damn Uber drivers!

A thread about people lying about other people committing crimes seems to be an entirely appropriate place to point out that lots of people complaining about it don't actually care about people lying about crimes. Hard to think of a better place, really.

So you’re concerned

 

[Starbuck1975]

Really? So why does it seem to be okay that they do?

I don’t think people seem ok with it. I just think they can’t relate to it. When you don’t encounter a problem, its hard to see it as a problem. Its like how most people complain about health insurance - until they have a costly illness.

 

[fskimospy]

It comes down to tribalism. As I said, conservatives have a mostly positive perception of police and have probably not had those types of encounters with them to the extent that what you see as a huge problem they can’t even relate to.

Most Americans have a positive view of police, liberals included. That being said, I agree it is tribalism to an extent and also political expediency. If conservatives bust the police unions then maybe they lose their support.

It’s more of a “yeah but” form of whataboutism. You’re saying, yeah I agree that Smollet did something wrong, but what about those damn Uber drivers!

Yes, I'm saying if this is a problem you actually care about why is nothing ever said about the far larger and more consequential examples of it going on all around us?

So you’re concerned

Honestly I am very concerned about police misconduct, it's rampant in America and it is almost never punished.

 

[Vic]

It comes down to tribalism. As I said, conservatives have a mostly positive perception of police and have probably not had those types of encounters with them to the extent that what you see as a huge problem they can’t even relate to.

Not taking this out on you, but there's kind of a mixed message here because @CZroe said earlier that conservatives decidedly and demonstrably care less about identity politics and tribalism.

Otherwise, I agree with you. But at the same time, I don't see not being able to relate to other peoples' problems as justification for antipathy either. And there is genuine antipathy here. We saw that with BLM and Kaepernick. I saw it a few years ago when the people of my city voted to create an independent police oversight commission. And the local conservative groups immediately set upon gutting its powers until they were eventually able to shut it down.
For some reason, the conservatives believe that it is some kind of tremendous burden to law enforcement to expect that they abide by the law while they enforce it.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

So to be clear when he posted semi-nudes of his ex girlfriend, doxxing her and saying she slept with a 'dirty Muslim' your argument is that he's simply a religious bigot instead of a racist?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/12/03/george-zimmerman-was-suspended-from-twitter-after-doxing-an-alleged-ex-girlfriend/

/facepalm. Muslim isn't a race.

Yes, you have the right to be pissed-off at someone and make stupid statements in life. Especially when you're talking the middle class making subpar wages things like this are much more prevalent.

 

[fskimospy]

/facepalm. Muslim isn't a race.

Yes, you have the right to be pissed-off at someone and make stupid statements in life. Especially when you're talking the middle class making subpar wages things like this are much more prevalent.

Haha, this reminds me of the 'Mexican is not a race' idiots who thought that was an important distinction to make as well.

So again I want to be clear that your argument in Zimmerman's defense is that he is only a religious bigot and not a racial bigot? lol. Man, that really defeats my point.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Haha, this reminds me of the 'Mexican is not a race' idiots who thought that was an important distinction to make as well.

So again I want to be clear that your argument in Zimmerman's defense is that he is only a religious bigot and not a racial bigot? lol. Man, that really defeats my point.

How is it not an important distinction to make?

Mexican is not a race. I'm married to an evil brown Hispanic by the way.


Your entire argument on people like Zimmerman AND the likes of Smugglette are the same thing... Whataboutism. Newsflash sugar tits - we aren't talking about before or after the event. We're talking about the event itself. Yes, being in court ligitations, public spotlight, and massive media attention can have insane effects on your psychology. No - that isn't an excuse, but it also doesn't have any bearing on the original event.

 

[fskimospy]

How is it not an important distinction to make?

Mexican is not a race.[/quote]

I'm struggling to understand why the distinction would be important to anyone. Both involve being bigoted towards someone due to their inherent characteristics.

I'm married to an evil brown Hispanic by the way.

Who cares?

Your entire argument on people like Zimmerman AND the likes of Smugglette are the same thing... Whataboutism.

No, this has already been covered.

Newsflash sugar tits - we aren't talking about before or after the event. We're talking about the event itself. Yes, being in court ligitations, public spotlight, and massive media attention can have insane effects on your psychology. No - that isn't an excuse, but it also doesn't have any bearing on the original event.

How is that even remotely relevant to anything I posted here about Zimmerman?

 

[Paladin3]

I mean all you have to do to see what a horrible and potentially violent person George Zimmerman was/is is to look at, well, basically everything he's done since that incident. He's pretty obviously a racist with serious anger management problems and a sadistic streak.

I challenge anyone to read this and come away with the impression that our good friend George is anything other than a disturbed individual.

George Zimmerman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You could say much of the same about Rodney King. Doesn't mean he deserved that beating. No, George Zimmerman doesn't appear to be a nice guy at all. Doesn't mean he didn't have the right to defend his life when he was being attacked. Nor does it justify all the lies that were told to try to unjustly convict him.

If we are going to judge people we should at least strive to do so based on truth and facts, and not line up along racial lines. The OJ Simpson trial showed that many were willing to support a murderer if he was of their same race. The fact that it also gave them an opportunity to flip the bird at a legal system that had discriminated against them pretty much forever might make it understandable, but it still wasn't right.

 

[fskimospy]

You could say much of the same about Rodney King. Doesn't mean he deserved that beating. No, George Zimmerman doesn't appear to be a nice guy at all. Doesn't mean he didn't have the right to defend his life when he was being attacked. Nor does it justify all the lies that were told to try and unjustly convict him.

Who is making any of those arguments though?

If we are going to judge people we should at least strive to do so based on truth and facts, and not line up along racial lines. The OJ Simpson trial showed that many were willing to support a murder if he was of their same race. The fact that it also gave them an opportunity to flip the bird at a legal system that had discriminated against them pretty much forever might make it understandable, but it still wasn't right.

I'm judging George Zimmerman based solely on his actions.

 

[Vic]

You could say much of the same about Rodney King. Doesn't mean he deserved that beating. No, George Zimmerman doesn't appear to be a nice guy at all. Doesn't mean he didn't have the right to defend his life when he was being attacked. Nor does it justify all the lies that were told to try and unjustly convict him.

If we are going to judge people we should at least strive to do so based on truth and facts, and not line up along racial lines. The OJ Simpson trial showed that many were willing to support a murder if he was of their same race. The fact that it also gave them an opportunity to flip the bird at a legal system that had discriminated against them pretty much forever might make it understandable, but it still wasn't right.

Wait... Zimmerman was attacked and defending his life after he stalked Martin to his own home and confronted him there? lol

And I don't know of or have ever heard of a single person who supported OJ because they were of same race, or who used his acquittal as an opportunity to flip the bird at the legal system. Can you provide an example of this?

But this is a good discussion because it is helping me to see that the reason that conservatives don't believe that identity politics affect their opinions is because they choose to ignore how it does, by coming to the conclusion first, then creating a narrative to support it.

 

[woolfe9998]

Special Prosecutor Webb has obtained two search warrants, requiring Google to turn over Smollett's "emails, photos, location data and private messages for an entire year."

Jussie Smollett investigation: Judge orders Google to turn over a full year of the actor’s data as part of special prosecutor probe

A Cook County judge has ordered Google to turn over Jussie Smollett’s emails, photos, location data and private messages for an entire year as part of the special prosecutor’s investiga…

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[Vic]

How is it not an important distinction to make?

Mexican is not a race. I'm married to an evil brown Hispanic by the way.


Your entire argument on people like Zimmerman AND the likes of Smugglette are the same thing... Whataboutism. Newsflash sugar tits - we aren't talking about before or after the event. We're talking about the event itself. Yes, being in court ligitations, public spotlight, and massive media attention can have insane effects on your psychology. No - that isn't an excuse, but it also doesn't have any bearing on the original event.

Thank God you always manage to catch any point before it flies over your head.

 

[fskimospy]

Wait... Zimmerman was attacked and defending his life after he stalked Martin to his own home and confronted him there? lol

And I don't know of or have ever heard of a single who supported OJ because they were of same race.

But this is a good discussion because it is helping me to see that the reason that conservatives don't believe that identity politics affect their opinions is because they choose to ignore how it does, by coming to the conclusion first, then creating a narrative to support it.

I do think it was interesting that in another thread s0meonesmind did not appear to consider that white people were an identity group.

 

[Vic]

I do think it was interesting that in another thread s0meonesmind did not appear to consider that white people were an identity group.

I can somewhat agree with that. White people as a whole do not have any kind of shared heritage and are very non-homogeneous. The same can be said of Hispanics and Asians as well, and even Jews. While the only reason most (but not all) black people in America do have a shared heritage is because of the legacy of slavery, but otherwise black people as a whole do not have a share heritage and are non-homogeneous.

However, I want to point out that the above are arguments against white supremacy, as they are forever talking about white heritage, and otherwise stereotyping themselves and other groups as homogeneous, all of which is nonsense.

 

[HurleyBird]

On the other hand, those perpetuating this narrative are the ones who care DECIDEDLY less when the roles are reverse. It's demonstrable. You are inadvertently proving it by implying that this should be cared about less now than before the hoax was revealed.

There's a 62 page thread here because liberals got triggered over an offensive smirk. Replace the Covington kids with some ethnic youths, or hell, just take away the MAGA hats and no would bat an eyelash. On the other extreme, black youths terrorising orthodox Jews in New York has zero chance of blowing up, despite the fact that the footage is harrowing and disgusting. Corporate media is in the business of making money, absolutely, but that doesn't explain half of what they do and why they do it. The media could have easily taken that clip and blown it up and made a huge deal of money, but they chose not to. They're political entities. Making money is important, but secondary. Besides which, when you have the ability to control what people get outraged over, there's less tension between the two than you might think. Again, the proof is in this forum. We got all worked up over something that is comparatively a complete nothing-burger (even before the tricky editing was exposed) just because we were told to be.

But here's where you're wrong: Take any of these stories and replace the perps with Muslims and watch Republicans and Fox News go berserk.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Not taking this out on you, but there's kind of a mixed message here because @CZroe said earlier that conservatives decidedly and demonstrably care less about identity politics and tribalism.

Conservatives typically care less about the identity politics that liberals typically embrace, and vice versa. Conservatives dismiss liberals as snowflakes and SJWs and socialists. Liberals dismiss conservatives as fascists and racists, and “you’re the real snowflakes” arguments. Its unproductive and tiresome.

Otherwise, I agree with you. But at the same time, I don't see not being able to relate to other peoples' problems as justification for antipathy either. And there is genuine antipathy here. We saw that with BLM and Kaepernick.

On that point, I am sympathetic to BLM, yet reject Kaepernick’s “activism” as antics, and also believe he has done more harm than good by making the cause about him. I am also sympathetic to police because I understand the stress if going into an uncertain situation that potentially involves weapons, often perceived.

I saw it a few years ago when the people of my city voted to create an independent police oversight commission. And the local conservative groups immediately set upon gutting its powers until they were eventually able to shut it down.
For some reason, the conservatives believe that it is some kind of tremendous burden to law enforcement to expect that they abide by the law while they enforce it.

Again, its a matter of perspective. If you don’t see the underlying problem, then you will naturally perceive oversight not as a solution but as bureaucratic waste.

 

[Vic]

Conservatives typically care less about the identity politics that liberals typically embrace, and vice versa. Conservatives dismiss liberals as snowflakes and SJWs and socialists. Liberals dismiss conservatives as fascists and racists, and “you’re the real snowflakes” arguments. Its unproductive and tiresome.

On that point, I am sympathetic to BLM, yet reject Kaepernick’s “activism” as antics, and also believe he has done more harm than good by making the cause about him. I am also sympathetic to police because I understand the stress if going into an uncertain situation that potentially involves weapons, often perceived.

Again, its a matter of perspective. If you don’t see the underlying problem, then you will naturally perceive oversight not as a solution but as bureaucratic waste.

I mostly agree with you here as well, but I would suggest that you take the line "if you don't see the underlying problem" and apply that to conservatives and identity politics. It's not that they care less, it's that they choose to not see how deeply they care.