The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[Moonbeam]

I am amazed how people are having so much trouble understanding this. If God made everything and knew exactly how it would turn out when he made it, choice is an illusion.

What amazes me is that people who find this logical have so much trouble believing that others don't. It's like they completely disregard the fact of what faith is and does. Faith is the means by which folk are able to believe what would without faith seem to be completely absurd. You find that amazing but I find it wonderful when it opens the door to God. You look at the world as if there were no god but I know that God exists. I am not a believer but I know that for some, belief brings the same experience, knowing that God exists.

Where you go wrong in my opinion is that the problem is not with faith but in the results that it can create, for one a state of egoless surrender, a joyful being state, and for an other a fanatical egotistically possessed monster of certainty.

What you should have in common with people of real faith is the knowledge that monstrous irrationality can infect the religious and non-religious alike. If you look into it deeply, I think you will discover that in both cases it is caused by self hate. You are immune to the call of irrational hate by means of reason and the truly faithful by the love of being. I feel safer among the latter than the former because real love goes to the core of ones being.

But just as a matter of logical interest to me, if god knows the future is that not a part of memory as to what the future will be by having seen it transpire in a future-now where all choices were made completely freely?

I mean, as long as you are going to argue the contradictions that are implied by all power and all knowledge, the notion that choice is not free would not be one of them if in fact all knowledge of choices made are made by seeing the past, even if for us that past hasn't happened yet. I'm tempted to say I'm amazed that the logicians here don't see that. Knowledge in the form of data is always of the past, no?

 

[Retro Rob]

Yes, it's simple. How about your omnipotent invisible magical man in the sky step up and handle it. Why can't he? They're gods representatives, they're his people, he hires them. This isn't difficult

1) God CAN'T weed out the pedophiles.
2) God WANTS pedophile priests
3) God doesn't exist

Those are the only 3 possibilities. He either can't do it, can do it and yet refuses to do it or he's not there at all. Pick one.

Oh, and one more thing -- I ask atheists for better solutions for a reason.

It goes a long way in determining if they really care about pedophile priests existing in religions and finding ways to make sure children are protected from them, or if they are only concerned about getting more "hits" on God and religion.

Sadly, you're the latter...

 

[Moonbeam]

shira: I'm sorry, I think you've got it backward, It's you who can't help the "I'm saved, you're not" scenario. I know for sure that I'm not saved. I know for sure I'm capable of "falling." I know for sure that I'm capable of fear and insecurity and cowardice and dishonor. I know that my life could crumble and be filled with misery. I definitely hope these bad things won't happen, but I know they might. And if really bad things do happen, I'm hopeful that I'll have the internal resources to recover.

M: You said: "I hope you never lose the beliefs that you've won and can't fall. Those seem to be important to you. I don't need to believe either of those things. Heaven is for those who need heaven.

In the first place nothing in that statement implies that heaven is for those who need heaven. Heaven is when the ego self, the divided self, is not. If one experiences a state of unity the experience can't be taken away. It's not a matter of importance but a statement of fact and the means by which recovery is possible.

But the point here is that what you say now in not implied in the earlier quote as I read it. The implication appeared to me to be that you do not need any hope because you can never experience need and now you say you do have hope because you know that you might have need. As someone who did have such a need and found one, I wanted to offer my suggestions that might point to where the door is.

s: So I move forward with my life. And - at least for my life so far - things have been pretty good. Not perfect, not without some suffering, but good enough.

So, no, I'm not insulted. Just irritated at times that you so often project your own issues onto others. But I accept that that's a part of your own struggle, so I'm trying to be gentle with you. I don't always succeed, and I'm sorry for that; I'm only human.

M: Well if you know you can fall then I don't see how I am projecting my issues because I know what I know because I fell. I'm passing along as best I can what I feel to be useful information, possibly for future reference.

So what is this irritation that I project my issues. I have been posting, in my opinion, interestingly enough, from 1999 on the subject of projection. It's cause by the fact that we do not want to see our own self hate so we see our hate in others. I would be curious if you had an alternative method to account for it. I have been conscious for some time that you are being gentle and I thank you for it.

 

[soulcougher73]

What about the many that aren't pedophiles (which there are)?

Did God do a proper check on them and get it right?

Since there are some that are and some that aren't, then perhaps the truth of the matter is the human condition plays a HUGE role, unless you can show that non-religious people or non-Christians have never had pedophiles among them.

So humans are now as powerful as God? Bad rationalizing their bud.

 

[FelixDeCat]

 

[soulcougher73]

bshole is a biblical hack and when you call him on his misrepresentations he plows ahead as if nothing happened.

Pot meets kettle in the mirror.

 

[Retro Rob]

So humans are now as powerful as God? Bad rationalizing their bud.

Evidently, I was testing his logical consistency -- if pedophile priests serve as priests because God wrongly chose them, then that must mean that non-pedophile priests serve as priests because God rightly chose them.

My alternative view is whether or not God "chooses" them, it has no bearing on what actions one takes that is contrary to the oath they swear to.

 

[soulcougher73]

Oh, and one more thing -- I ask atheists for better solutions for a reason.

It goes a long way in determining if they really care about pedophile priests existing in religions and finding ways to make sure children are protected from them, or if they are only concerned about getting more "hits" on God and religion.

Sadly, you're the latter...

Yup that's exactly what atheists want. It's on the first page of our holy book. Thou shall love thy pedophiles.

 

[soulcougher73]

Bstole is not reading anything I type. I did not say being a gay, pedo or a breeder is wrong. I have said it 100,000 times. Yet he pretends I say otherwise. I said you can be what you are but its your actions that matter. If you are a pedo and you go around molesting, yeah that's wrong! If you are a gay or a breeder and you go around having sex out of wedlock that's wrong too! If you cheat on your wife or husband you are a dumbass!

Yet he says something completely different because he cant believe that I don't say what he wants me to say.

Its a tired game of atheists.

Ignorance is strong with this one.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yup that's exactly what atheists want. It's on the first page of our holy book. Thou shall love thy pedophiles.

??

OK, if you want the former, show me a plan that protects children from pedophiles 100% of the time, and show me where its been implemented with proven results.

Thank you.

 

[soulcougher73]

Evidently, I was testing his logical consistency -- if pedophile priests serve as priests because God wrongly chose them, then that must mean that non-pedophile priests serve as priests because God rightly chose them.

My alternative view is whether or not God "chooses" them, it has no bearing on what actions one takes that is contrary to the oath they swear to.

So you're ok with some godly chosen pedophiles? How many can he pick before it's an issue?

 

[MajinCry]

Bstole is not reading anything I type. I did not say being a gay, pedo or a breeder is wrong. I have said it 100,000 times. Yet he pretends I say otherwise. I said you can be what you are but its your actions that matter. If you are a pedo and you go around molesting, yeah that's wrong! If you are a gay or a breeder and you go around having sex out of wedlock that's wrong too! If you cheat on your wife or husband you are a dumbass!

Yet he says something completely different because he cant believe that I don't say what he wants me to say.

Its a tired game of atheists.

Molesting kids is wrong? Oh my. I guess you then also think that raping kids is wrong?

Now, I concur on both points; rape and molestation should, at the very least, condemn you to life imprisonment.

Yahweh has a different opinion on the matter.

Numbers 31:17-18 - "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."

A fine example of Yahweh commanding his followers to keep child sex slaves.

 

[Retro Rob]

So you're ok with some godly chosen pedophiles? How many can he pick before it's an issue?

Soul, stop with these silly diversions...

My belief is simple: God has nothing to do with what actions priests take that contradicts the oath they swear to.

If your boss hires you to drive responsibly in the company vehicle, they cannot be held liable if you chose to drive the vehicle while drunk.

..or you can keep acting like a 6-year old and continue to deliberately miss my point.

 

[soulcougher73]

??

OK, if you want the former, show me a plan that protects children from pedophiles 100% of the time, and show me where its been implemented with proven results.

Thank you.

Sorry I'm not God. I don't have those kind of powers. He has the power to stop it yet he doesn't. So we can only assume he is OK with his chosen pedophiles priests to spread his word.

 

[Retro Rob]

Sorry I'm not God. I don't have those kind of powers.

Cops don't have the power to completely prevent ALL crime, so does that mean they shouldn't even try?

Of course, my request was somewhat rhetorical, because atheists spend a lot of time bitching about issues like this but NEVER offer realistic solutions.

 

[MajinCry]

Cops don't have the power to completely prevent ALL crime, so does that mean they shouldn't even try?

Of course, my request was somewhat rhetorical, because atheists spend a lot of time bitching about issues like this but NEVER offer realistic solutions.

That's because what you're presenting is a strawman. We're not discussing the issue of child rape; we're discussing the issue of Yahweh being the direct cause of it and other such vile acts.

You really, really should re-read the past few pages. The verses have been provided that show Yahweh causes these acts; nothing goes against his will, after all.

 

[Retro Rob]

That's because what you're presenting is a strawman. We're not discussing the issue of child rape; we're discussing the issue of Yahweh being the direct cause of it and other such vile acts.

Yahweh doesn't exist, remember? So child rape is realistically a product of evolution.

 

[shira]

You said: "I hope you never lose the beliefs that you've won and can't fall. Those seem to be important to you. I don't need to believe either of those things. Heaven is for those who need heaven.

In the first place nothing in that statement implies that heaven is for those who need heaven. Heaven is when the ego self, the divided self, is not. If one experiences a state of unity the experience can't be taken away. It's not a matter of importance but a statement of fact and the means by which recovery is possible.

But the point here is that what you say now in not implied in the earlier quote as I read it. The implication appeared to me to be that you do not need any hope because you can never experience need and now you say you do have hope because you know that you might have need. As someone who did have such a need and found one, I wanted to offer my suggestions that might point to where the door is.

I think you and I have a different conception of "heaven."

It seems to me that you consider the state of feeling "I've won and I know I won't ever fall again" to be transcendently good. So good that you want to help others to get to their own version of that same place. Well, that sounds to me like the pursuit of "heaven." The conception of what "heaven" is is obviously different for different people and different faiths, but the idea of wanting to arrive at some blissful state is the common feature. But for those who don't feel the need for being in a "blissful state," the pursuit isn't meaningful. Hence, "Heaven is for those who need heaven."

Well if you know you can fall then I don't see how I am projecting my issues because I know what I know because I fell. I'm passing along as best I can what I feel to be useful information, possibly for future reference.

The projection I was referring to was your statement "I know that you can't help the I'm saved your not scenario," which I interpreted to mean that you think I'm the one continually claiming "I'm saved, but you're not." My follow-on to that was to point out that I certainly don't consider myself to be "saved" in any way; I only reiterated that my life is pretty good, but that I know I'm not immune to bad things happening, as a way of helping you to understand just how "not saved" I consider myself to be.

If you can't recognize that you, not I, make the ("I'm saved, you're not") claim all the time, then I really don't know what to say other than to advise you to read back over your posts and see just how often you do say it. Yet your statement is that I'm the one who "can't help" making that boast. In other words, you interpret my statement that "My life is pretty good" as equivalent to "I'm saved, you're not." That's "projection."

And, Moonbeam, you do this sort of things in many different contexts. I read your responses to others' posts, and I try to objectively evaluate where you and others are coming from. You'd be surprised just how often I see you stating that others are playing some particular intellectual game when in fact it's you, not them, who have been doing that game-playing. It's so bad sometimes that I find myself wondering if you have a some sort of mental illness that makes it too painful for you to look at yourself.

This aversion to introspection which I see in you becomes worse and worse the more the focus of the interaction moves onto your own mental state and behavior. Which, is why, unfortunately, I can almost guarantee that your response to this post is going to twist and turn statements on their heads - anything to remove the real focus from yourself.

I sincerely apologize for making you feel uncomfortable.

So what is this irritation that I project my issues. I have been posting, in my opinion, interestingly enough, from 1999 on the subject of projection. It's cause by the fact that we do not want to see our own self hate so we see our hate in others. I would be curious if you had an alternative method to account for it. I have been conscious for some time that you are being gentle and I thank you for it.

I think I've described why I get irritated. But when I meditate on it awhile, my irritation fades and gets replaced with a sense of compassion for you.

Peace.

 

[soulcougher73]

Yahweh doesn't exist, remember? So child rape is realistically a product of evolution.

And if true that's fine. As humans we don't possess the type of power to know a pedophile when we see one, but we do hate and punish the behavior , unlike certain gods.

 

[buckshot24]

That's because what you're presenting is a strawman. We're not discussing the issue of child rape; we're discussing the issue of Yahweh being the direct cause of it and other such vile acts.

What is your favorite cookie flavor? I like chocolate chip myself. I find oatmeal raisin to be vile.

Just as meaningful as your accusations against God. Your opinion is noted and flushed for the baseless ramblings of the meat machine you think you are.

 

[MajinCry]

Yahweh doesn't exist, remember? So child rape is realistically a product of evolution.

"Realistically a product of evolution"?

The fuck?

Rape is the product of humans, the majority being male, treating women as nothing more as an outlet for sexual gratification.

Something that the Abrahamic texts promote quite fervently.


The believers think that their deity, the one they worship and live by, does exist. Not only that, they think that the deity is omnipotent and omniscient, what with the texts alluding to such.

A few of us in this thread recognize this, and are left with a bad taste in our mouths, over the worship of such a heinous character; real or otherwise. But there are others that deny the claims of Yahweh being evil, which prompts discussion.

Alas, the believers are hell-bent on presenting straw-man after straw-man, dismissing arguments and ignoring direct quotations from the texts.

 

[Retro Rob]

And if true that's fine. As humans we don't possess the type of power t know a pedophile when we see on, unlike certain gods.

There are no "certain gods" -- just evolution.

So it's ok for child rapists to rape children, as long as a god has nothing to do with it?

Thanks for your honesty, soulcougher! Very humane of you!

 

[soulcougher73]

What is your favorite cookie flavor? I like chocolate chip myself. I find oatmeal raisin to be vile.

Just as meaningful as your accusations against God. Your opinion is noted and flushed for the baseless ramblings of the meat machine you think you are.

Weren't you done with this thread hateful little man. We had hoped you we're a man of your word.

 

[soulcougher73]

There are no "certain gods" -- just evolution.

So it's ok for child rapists to rape children, as long as a god has nothing to do with it?

Thanks for your honesty, soulcougher! Very humane of you!

Editted my post while you were quoting me. Should answer your question.

 

[MajinCry]

What is your favorite cookie flavor? I like chocolate chip myself. I find oatmeal raisin to be vile.

Just as meaningful as your accusations against God. Your opinion is noted and flushed for the baseless ramblings of the meat machine you think you are.

Accusations against God? Baseless ramblings? I just presented a Bible passage showing Yahweh command sex slavery of children. Never mind the previous verses showing that Yahweh is the one who directly causes these acts.

Why do you participate in threads, when you are so hell-bent on just repeating the same nonsense and fallacies over and over, dismissing anything that goes against your un-substantiated opinions of Yahweh?