The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[MajinCry]

But I noticed such an issue in which we hold those ancient times to the same exact living standards we're in these days.
Do you think that is fair? does it make much sense to you?

Yup. It's by looking at the past and going "Well, that's a bit fucked." that we further our morality.

What you're positing, is that the more dated a crime is, the less of a crime it is. Which is complete nonsense.

A rape committed 2,000 years ago doesn't stop it from being a rape.

Btw, I didn't see any direct order to rape those girls in that verse, even though I agree the eventual outcome was well known by God.
Blaming all evil solely on God is non-sense, considered the fact that we truly do have a free-will to a great extent.

Free wiil? No, not according to the Bible. We've been over this. Around ten pages back or so.

No direct order to rape? What do you think a bunch of marauding murderers are going to do, when ordered to take young virgin girls, after slaughtering the women who aren't virgins, due to non-virgins already being property to other men?

Ya guessed it, they're going to make the girls their property; signified by "taking away" their virginity. In other words, rape. And if you think that girls are just going to fall in love with the same people that slaughtered their brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers, I'd have to label you as insane.


Blaming all evil solely on Yahweh is nonsense?

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness. I create good, and I create evil. I, The Lord, do all these things."

The evil in is the humans, not the atoms.

And much evil is perpetuated due to religion. Ever seen the texts? Hoo-boy. But we've been over that before.

But it seems to you that slavery was all about evil, inside out. Here I'd also urge you to rethink it a bit, at least for those ancient times.

Acts of evil, no matter how antiquated they are, are still evil.

Imagine an extremely poor, homeless and illiterate guy wandering the streets, compare him to a slave which is living well with basic needs

Slaves are property; they can be beaten to death, so long as they don't die in under 48 hours. They are to be done with as you please; rape, torture, doesn't matter; they're objects, your property.

and ordered to do some normal workloads.

Those are some hellishly large rose-tinted glasses you got there. You'd be able to crush Asia with a pair that big.

Which one would you think be in better conditions, the free home-less one or the slave.

The free one, of course. If he ever manages to increase his wealth and get a family, the slaver won't be able to take the wealth as his own and keep his family as his own.

Hell, haven't you ever heard about criminal that would like to return back into cell; to get a place to sleep along some food and company.

Oh right, because prison is the same today as it was two thousand years ago. They even had halogen lights, medical checkups, vaccinations, free food, gym equipment and clean clothing, as far back as two thousand years ago! Wowie!


Please.

I mean, slavery isn't always about hard-labored camps with worst conditions you could ever imagine. We - humans - have created those conditions for those slaves, not God.

...Really? That's the best you can do? Come on. Try and be serious.

Btw, we've many reported stories about slaves that were treated fair and well, at least in early Islamic history.

Bullshit. If you're going to enact fakery, at least try to make it convincing.

We should really not take whole religious matters in a black/white-only way.

But that's the whole basis for religion; bringing absolutes and commandments to live by. You'll have to take it up with religion, if you have a problem with what the religions command.

 

[buckshot24]

Hey meat machine, nobody cares what a series of complex chemical reactions "thinks".

 

[bshole]

Who said that it means "rape is good"?

It more means "rape is necessary" as it's a favored behavioral strategy.

It begs the question; why did morality (which causes us to make laws against rape) evolve which would eventually counter a favored behavior like rape?

Is natural selection working against itself?

Retro,

Those are exceptionally good questions. For whatever reasons, societies that developed had these notions of morality survived and flourished over other societies. For example, Islamic theocracies still get their morals/laws from an antiquated book and their morals/technology/government have not evolved.

Morals are what help intelligent social animal civilizations to flourish. The rape impulse only helps an individual to pass his own genes, it doesn't help a intelligent social animal civilization to flourish. For humans, it is the survival of the fittest civilization that matters, not the survival of the fittest human. We are nearly unique in that regard.

 

[soulcougher73]

I think you've made my point. You were just earlier railing against rape because God allegedly "chose" pedophile priests, yet, when I agree that its simply part of our evolutionary history, its a "very small percentage occurrence".

Why wasn't it a "very small percentage occurrence" when God was on trail?

I think its very clear that atheists simply are double standard holding bigots.

This is an excellent way to critically analyze them. Force them to answer questions.

As ive said before a couple times now. You cant compare your gods so called powers equal to mine or evolutions. According to the attributes Christians claim their god to have he could very well weed out any pedophile from every becoming a spokesman for God. Evolution nor i can do such a think. I mean if i was all powerful the last thing i would do is have pedos tarnishing my image by being my spokesman on earth.

So comparing the two things is just silly and makes no sense. Not sure how you ever got onto that track of thought.

 

[Moonbeam]

As ive said before a couple times now. You cant compare your gods so called powers equal to mine or evolutions. According to the attributes Christians claim their god to have he could very well weed out any pedophile from every becoming a spokesman for God. Evolution nor i can do such a think. I mean if i was all powerful the last thing i would do is have pedos tarnishing my image by being my spokesman on earth.

So comparing the two things is just silly and makes no sense. Not sure how you ever got onto that track of thought.

You guys make such silly arguments. I counter with, God gave you free will because He only knows the choices you will make by reviewing them from a future in which they already happened, and if He went around eliminating people's free choices to do evil no faith would be requited to believe in Him. You would have no choice but to believe in Him because proof that He exists would be everywhere.

 

[soulcougher73]

You guys make such silly arguments. I counter with, God gave you free will because He only knows the choices you will make by reviewing them from a future in which they already happened, and if He went around eliminating people's free choices to do evil no faith would be requited to believe in Him. You would have no choice but to believe in Him because proof that He exists would be everywhere.

That is fine with me. Id rather him be real and awesome and worthy of worship then having faith he may exist.

 

[buckshot24]

You guys make such silly arguments. I counter with, God gave you free will because He only knows the choices you will make by reviewing them from a future in which they already happened, and if He went around eliminating people's free choices to do evil no faith would be requited to believe in Him. You would have no choice but to believe in Him because proof that He exists would be everywhere.

They are stuck in the here and now and can't imagine God not being bound by our perceptions of time. Strange that they can grant God knowing the future but not HOW He knows the future.

 

[soulcougher73]

They are stuck in the here and now and can't imagine God not being bound by our perceptions of time. Strange that they can grant God knowing the future but not HOW He knows the future.

We dont grant god that. You guys do. We just question how you can and still believe in free will. Unless you want to jump on the Moonbeam express to talk it away.

 

[shira]

Why would a universe in which morality arose naturally be godless?

I suppose if God does exist and decided on a completely "hands off" approach to everything (which includes playing no role in the creation of the universe or anything in it), then God could certainly exist and morality would arise "naturally."

But that scenario would be totally at odds with the belief systems of essentially all theists. I mean, what would motivate people to believe in an entity that created nothing, influenced nothing, provided nothing, and whose very presence/existence had to remain completely hidden for all eternity?

 

[bshole]

I suppose if God does exist and decided on a completely "hands off" approach to everything (which includes playing no role in the creation of the universe or anything in it), then God could certainly exist and morality would arise "naturally."

But that scenario would be totally at odds with the belief systems of essentially all theists. I mean, what would motivate people to believe in an entity that created nothing, influenced nothing, provided nothing, and whose very presence/existence had to remain completely hidden for all eternity?

Shira, would you believe in Jesus if he showed up on CNN and removed cancer from all living humans on earth on camera via one big miracle?

 

[Moonbeam]

We dont grant god that. You guys do. We just question how you can and still believe in free will. Unless you want to jump on the Moonbeam express to talk it away.

All I did is what you did. You tried to logically explain that there isn't such a thing as free will if God knows what you will do and I provided an alternate logic to show that you still have free will because God only knows your choices after you made them in the future, before you make them now, but not before you make them in the future. All I am saying is that you didn't think your logic through because you can only have knowledge of the past.

And on top of it all in your lust to have an all powerful and just god, in your limited understanding of what justice might be, you want to throw away your free will to doubt. You are funny to me.

 

[bshole]

All I did is what you did. You tried to logically explain that there isn't such a thing as free will if God knows what you will do and I provided an alternate logic to show that you still have free will because God only knows your choices after you made them in the future, before you make them now, but not before you make them in the future. All I am saying is that you didn't think your logic through because you can only have knowledge of the past.

And on top of it all in your lust to have an all powerful and just god, in your limited understanding of what justice might be, you want to throw away your free will to doubt. You are funny to me.

I would trade free will for happiness any day of the week. Sadly I don't have any free will to trade, neither do you.

 

[shira]

Shira, would you believe in Jesus if he showed up on CNN and removed cancer from all living humans on earth on camera via one big miracle?

I would! I would!

 

[shira]

The data is getting a little old, and the methodology is admittedly less than rigorous. Still, this web-page is interesting.

Among the American states, there is a neutral-to-positive correlation between religious behavior, and rates of crime. To see this relationship, I used three measures:

1. The FBI's statistics for crime by state in 2006;
2. Rates of church or synagogue attendance by state in 2006; and
3. The importance of religion in people's daily lives by state in 2009

Religiosity had no significant relationship with violent crime, but it had a notable positive correlation with property crime. To see this, I simply used Microsoft Excel to plot the numbers against each other (see charts below).

If nothing else, this data disproves the notion that less religious belief inexorably contributes to, or is correlated with, more crime. Not only is this completely false, but the opposite--that religion is correlated with crime--is somewhat true.

 

[soulcougher73]

All I did is what you did. You tried to logically explain that there isn't such a thing as free will if God knows what you will do and I provided an alternate logic to show that you still have free will because God only knows your choices after you made them in the future, before you make them now, but not before you make them in the future. All I am saying is that you didn't think your logic through because you can only have knowledge of the past.

And on top of it all in your lust to have an all powerful and just god, in your limited understanding of what justice might be, you want to throw away your free will to doubt. You are funny to me.

I will grant you your story has some merit, but I'm still not buying into it.

 

[Moonbeam]

I suppose if God does exist and decided on a completely "hands off" approach to everything (which includes playing no role in the creation of the universe or anything in it), then God could certainly exist and morality would arise "naturally."

But that scenario would be totally at odds with the belief systems of essentially all theists. I mean, what would motivate people to believe in an entity that created nothing, influenced nothing, provided nothing, and whose very presence/existence had to remain completely hidden for all eternity?

He has to remain hidden from you because you have no need of him. I believe there are essentially two ways to know God. One is via faith, the surrender of the self to an unseen mystery that lies at the essence of our being. The other way is via doubt, the way I had to go because I could not believe, the journey through hell, the burning away of self and the resurrection of the phoenix, as Joseph Campbell described as the Hero's Journey. In the West the Christian path is probably most common but in the East there are many other ways. In the East the paths are often hidden because truth is not very well received. In the East there are teachers who know the way and know also how to take those who have a need on that journey. It is a psychologically sophisticated science. They probably work in the West too.

The point is that one does not know God with via physical scientific proof of his existence but by opening a door within. In Zen, for example there are schools with well known lines of transmission and succession. God is not a person in the sky but word that describes a conscious state, a transformation of awareness, a door that opens to love, a door that when open removes all doubt. I had a peek through that door and it changed everything for me.

The God I know doesn't do anything for your world, but He did everything for mine, one moment abject misery, the next, peace.

 

[Moonbeam]

I will grant you your story has some merit, but I'm still not buying into it.

Hehehehehehehehe. I will settle for 'some merit'. I don't buy into it either because I'm not the one saying that God is all wise and all powerful. I see those things as a function of being present in the now, fully conscious to the extent that only ones awareness of the now exists. In that place "I AM
THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, referring to the fact that fully here and now consciousness is undivided complete and at cause. One is God conscious and as such knows all there is to know and has all the power there is to have. For me this can only refer to the now, not the future or the past. For me God is now. I love the Christians with their far superior God, but mine is good enough for a nobody like me. I think I'm fucking lucky just to have the one I have compared to where I used to be.

 

[shira]

He has to remain hidden from you because you have no need of him. I believe there are essentially two ways to know God. One is via faith, the surrender of the self to an unseen mystery that lies at the essence of our being. The other way is via doubt, the way I had to go because I could not believe, the journey through hell, the burning away of self and the resurrection of the phoenix, as Joseph Campbell described as the Hero's Journey. In the West the Christian path is probably most common but in the East there are many other ways. In the East the paths are often hidden because truth is not very well received. In the East there are teachers who know the way and know also how to take those who have a need on that journey. It is a psychologically sophisticated science. They probably work in the West too.

The point is that one does not know God with via physical scientific proof of his existence but by opening a door within. In Zen, for example there are schools with well known lines of transmission and succession. God is not a person in the sky but word that describes a conscious state, a transformation of awareness, a door that opens to love, a door that when open removes all doubt. I had a peek through that door and it changed everything for me.

The God I know doesn't do anything for your world, but He did everything for mine, one moment abject misery, the next, peace.

This does't sound very much different by Christians describing their personal experience of being "filled with the Holy Ghost." I also note that their feelings of certainty about their beliefs are completely analogous to your own professed certainty.

But on a sadder note, followers of all sorts of cults pretty much describe the same inner state (if you want to read some first-hand accounts, just look up the blogs of ex-Scientologists). So do many schizophrenics. I would bet that many followers of ISIS would also report this inner state.

My point being, I totally accept that many, many people of all stripes experience the all-encompassing peace and certainty that you describe. But that's all I accept.

 

[Moonbeam]

This does't sound very much different by Christians describing their personal experience of being "filled with the Holy Ghost." I also note that their feelings of certainty about their beliefs are completely analogous to your own professed certainty.

But on a sadder note, followers of all sorts of cults pretty much describe the same inner state (if you want to read some first-hand accounts, just look up the blogs of ex-Scientologists). So do many schizophrenics. I would bet that many followers of ISIS would also report this inner state.

My point being, I totally accept that many, many people of all stripes experience the all-encompassing peace and certainty that you describe. But that's all I accept.

No problem. You are entitled to your opinion. For me I don't see much love in scientologists much less Isis members, but maybe that's just me.

 

[shira]

No problem. You are entitled to your opinion. For me I don't see much love in scientologists much less Isis members, but maybe that's just me.

I think you may be missing the point. It doesn't matter what YOU see in others who experience this "state of grace." All that matters is that they experience it themselves. And if some of these people also happen to be mass-murderers, sociopaths, and/or insane, maybe that says something about the significance (or lack thereof) of inner feelings of peace and certainty.

Just because a person feels certain doesn't mean they're right. (Edit: Not you, of course. Your inner peace and certainty is special.) (Edit 2: And in your case we can of course ignore the fact that EVERYONE who feels inner peach and certainty knows that their own peace and certainty is "special," because YOUR inner peace and certainty is especially special.)

 

[Moonbeam]

I think you may be missing the point. It doesn't matter what YOU see in others who experience this "state of grace." All that matters is that they experience it themselves. And if some of these people also happen to be mass-murderers, sociopaths, and/or insane, maybe that says something about the significance (or lack thereof) of inner feelings of peace and certainty.

Just because a person feels certain doesn't mean they're right. (Edit: Not you, of course. Your inner peace and certainty is special.) (Edit 2: And in your case we can of course ignore the fact that EVERYONE who feels inner peach and certainty knows that their own peace and certainty is "special," because YOUR inner peace and certainty is especially special.)

Some things one just know instinctively to be true.

 

[sandorski]

A short cartoon that indirectly discusses Free Will and Morality

 

[WelshBloke]

Some things one just know instinctively to be true.

Ah. The old truthiness.

 

[shira]

Some things one just know instinctively to be true.

Of course, pretty much everyone else who experiences inner peace and certainty "just knows instinctively" that "some things are true." But your instinctive feelings are special. Especially special.

 

[Moonbeam]

Of course, pretty much everyone else who experiences inner peace and certainty "just knows instinctively" that "some things are true." But your instinctive feelings are special. Especially special.

You must be very special to imagine you can be moral without the absolute truth of God to guide you.

You seek to taste a wine from a glass you have not lifted, a glass for which you believe you have no need.

Your perspective is fixed by unexamined assumptions you do not see. The insight that reveals that fact is revolutionary.

While the world waited eagerly into the night to receive the data as to whether the sun would bend starlight, Einstein went to bed. He knew he was right because, well, I'm sure he thought he was especially special.

If you tell an egotist about an experience of loss of ego he is going to tell you you're bragging.

I am a nobody. I have all the flaws. I am ignorant and my words may be poor. I may make my case worse than better for you. I can say however, that I believe that what happened to me, if it happened to you, you would be glad it did. It would not shake that opinion, I think also, if some called you drug addled or schizophrenic. The lover does not doubt the Beloved because the lover disappeared. When there is only love, should that state come into being, there is only love, only lone only love only love only love only love only love.