The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[MagickMan]

That's only true if everything MUST happen, a la the Everett interpretation of quantum mechanics. It's false if you assume an objective reduction of quantum states.

Wave function collapse is not fundamental from the perspective of quantum decoherence. :\

 

[MagickMan]

That must be the intelligent reply of the kid in the avator. Not an adult. I take it you are not an adult.

and he gets extra pissy when you throw his abuse back in his teeth.

 

[Victorian Gray]

You are assuming that atheism is not a religion. It is. It seeks the destruction of all other religions. Much like ISIS and other Jihadi religions. So the Stalin and Mao answer stands. Those crimes also tower against all other crimes committed by other religions. That makes Atheists the most evil of all religions in history.

Quite simply, bullshit.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

While you can call yourself whatever you wish, wouldn't your reply rather make you an agnostic?

I encourage you to research the meaning of the word "dichotomy" and to reflect carefully on its pertinence to your ignorant question.

 

[buckshot24]

I'm not trying to beat you in a debate, I'm having a discussion on a forum. "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm not going to tell you why you just need to think deeper" is no way to have a discussion. I'm interested to see how you think watching an event that happened in the past is in any way similar to knowing what will happen in the future. Your analogy falls apart before that though because you didn't create the basketball players in the first place.

Instead of pushing back to get me to spell it out you could have contemplated what you said (about the basketball game) and realized why you were missing the point.

To God time isn't linear where He has to wait around to see the results, He sees the end from the beginning at the same time. The basketball game is an analogy of our timeline and the tape is an analogy of God's knowledge of that timeline. The basketball players were 100% free to do whatever they chose while the game was going on and people are 100% free to do whatever they choose in our timeline. Us watching the tape doesn't force the PG to shoot that ill-advised 3 pointer with 20 seconds on the shot clock, he chose it freely.

And if you quote that hack again just so I can see the insults I'll have to put you on the list with him.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Wave function collapse is not fundamental from the perspective of quantum decoherence. :\

Marvelous. So what?

 

[buckshot24]

You either know what will happen or you don't. Knowing "everything that could happen" is meaningless.

Look up Molinism, that describes what he's talking about. I don't subscribe to that.

 

[Moonbeam]

The "worthyness" of a religion is partly defined by the order of threads made about them on the AT forums?

Well it's a new argument I'll give you that at least.



I'll agree that it's as likely that Santa exists as God.

The argument over God vs Santa has and will always come down in God' favor, because the notion and belief in God is a condition of our genetic nature. We were born in the Kingdom of Heaven and ejected, and nothing about your ridiculous Atheism will ever change that. There will always be those who aren't. Se fucked up that they don't still taste it, and there will always be those who return to their original state,

Santa exists, you fool, because the birth of Christ, he who died to save us with the gift of his life, was born on Christmas, and the Christmas gift of giving, is symbolized by St Nicolas. As long as the human joy of giving exists there will be Santa at Christmas, or some new and similar symbol.

 

[Moonbeam]

I know, i know. I hate myself. I get it

Pretty cowardly response......

 

[MagickMan]

That's pretty pathetic, frankly. What a sad world you live in.

*and the hand flew off the irony meter*

Uh... what?

It's okay to putt from the rough, we're in the 21st century now.

Marvelous. So what?

...
Seriously?

 

[MagickMan]

Pretty cowardly response......

It's what you've sewn.

 

[WelshBloke]

While you can call yourself whatever you wish, wouldn't your reply rather make you an agnostic?

Nope, confirmed atheist. Dad was an atheist, mum was agnostic.

Regardless, your reply is anecdotal, because it deals with one person. Even the most hateful of any poster condemning Christianity, would not blame one Christian. Or would they?

It is anecdotal but I've never met an atheist that wanted to get rid of all religion (and most of my mates are atheists). I'm not condemning any Christians for being Christians either.

Glad you joined the debate. Not trying to censor you.

 

[TheGardener]

It is anecdotal but I've never met an atheist that wanted to get rid of all religion (and most of my mates are atheists). I'm not condemning any Christians for being Christians either.

Fair enough. But I have met and have read of atheists who do wish to extinguish all religion. Some of the other posters in this thread come pretty close.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Seriously?

Yeah, seriously. If you made relevant arguments in the first place I wouldn't have to ask such questions.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

and he gets extra pissy when you throw his abuse back in his teeth.

Uh huh. Wow. Such abuse. Much pissy. Wow.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

To God time isn't linear where He has to wait around to see the results, He sees the end from the beginning at the same time. The basketball game is an analogy of our timeline and the tape is an analogy of God's knowledge of that timeline. The basketball players were 100% free to do whatever they chose while the game was going on and people are 100% free to do whatever they choose in our timeline. Us watching the tape doesn't force the PG to shoot that ill-advised 3 pointer with 20 seconds on the shot clock, he chose it freely.

1.) Tape is looking into the past, God looks into the future.
2.) Basketball spectators are not the creators of the universe and everything in it.

And if you quote that hack again just so I can see the insults I'll have to put you on the list with him.

What a fucking pussy.

 

[buckshot24]

It is anecdotal but I've never met an atheist that wanted to get rid of all religion (and most of my mates are atheists). I'm not condemning any Christians for being Christians either.

His experiences are probably with Youtube atheist type who do espouse all that garbage.

 

[WelshBloke]

The argument over God vs Santa has and will always come down in God' favor, because the notion and belief in God is a condition of our genetic nature.

That says nothing about the veracity of gods existence.

We were born in the Kingdom of Heaven and ejected, and nothing about your ridiculous Atheism will ever change that. There will always be those who aren't. Se fucked up that they don't still taste it, and there will always be those who return to their original state,

I was born in a hospital in South Wales. I think my mum would have mentioned if it was the Kingdom of heaven at the time.

Santa exists, you fool, because the birth of Christ, he who died to save us with the gift of his life, was born on Christmas, and the Christmas gift of giving, is symbolized by St Nicolas. As long as the human joy of giving exists there will be Santa at Christmas, or some new and similar symbol.

If you say so. I suppose those pagans who had celebrations around that time of year eons before the birth of christ were quite the forward thinkers.

Oh and christ wasn't born at Christmas anyway.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

For breakfast next Tuesday, John will have either ham or jam. That's all John ever has for breakfast, ham or jam.

John will freely choose between ham or jam on Tuesday, iff both ham and jam are legitimately possible future realities for John.

At the moment of creation, however, God knows infallibly that John will have ham for breakfast on that Tuesday.

Infallible knowledge cannot possibly be wrong. When God knows infallibly that John will have ham, it is not possible for John to have jam. If it were possible for John to have jam when God knows he will have ham, then it would be possible for God's knowledge to be wrong. This is a contradiction.

Therefore, when God knows infallibly the future states of the universe no alternative states are possible, and therefore, despite any and all appearances, free will cannot exist.

 

[WelshBloke]

I'm hungry now.

 

[JD50]

Instead of pushing back to get me to spell it out you could have contemplated what you said (about the basketball game) and realized why you were missing the point.

To God time isn't linear where He has to wait around to see the results, He sees the end from the beginning at the same time. The basketball game is an analogy of our timeline and the tape is an analogy of God's knowledge of that timeline. The basketball players were 100% free to do whatever they chose while the game was going on and people are 100% free to do whatever they choose in our timeline. Us watching the tape doesn't force the PG to shoot that ill-advised 3 pointer with 20 seconds on the shot clock, he chose it freely.

And if you quote that hack again just so I can see the insults I'll have to put you on the list with him.

You are incredibly sensitive, please just put me on ignore if you can't deal with who I quote. If I agree with something that he says or think it's relevant to the conversation I will continue to quote him.

In order for that to be a valid analogy I would have to be able to look at the tape before the game occurred, which I obviously cannot do. So God only knows what we will do after we do it? Terrible analogy.

Anyways, you're invoking magic to explain how we can have free will while at the same time God knows what we will do before we do it. If he knows that I will do something, then I have no choice but to do that thing. If I do something different than God "knew" I would do, then he obviously didn't know I would do it. You can't get around that without special pleading. What you're saying is nothing new and has been rebutted countless times.

 

[JD50]

For breakfast next Tuesday, John will have either ham or jam. That's all John ever has for breakfast, ham or jam.

John will freely choose between ham or jam on Tuesday, iff both ham and jam are legitimately possible future realities for John.

At the moment of creation, however, God knows infallibly that John will have ham for breakfast on that Tuesday.

Infallible knowledge cannot possibly be wrong. When God knows infallibly that John will have ham, it is not possible for John to have jam. If it were possible for John to have jam when God knows he will have ham, then it would be possible for God's knowledge to be wrong. This is a contradiction.

Therefore, when God knows infallibly the future states of the universe no alternative states are possible, and therefore, despite any and all appearances, free will cannot exist.

Well said. Buck can you counter this?

 

[buckshot24]

You are incredibly sensitive, please just put me on ignore if you can't deal with who I quote. If I agree with something that he says or think it's relevant to the conversation I will continue to quote him.

If you quote him insulting me again then I will.

In order for that to be a valid analogy I would have to be able to look at the tape before the game occurred, which I obviously cannot do. So God only knows what we will do after we do it? Terrible analogy.

No, there is no "after" with God. He is outside of the timeline so he can see it all from beginning to end. Another analogy is you sitting watching a parade, float by float and somebody else seeing the whole thing from the sky.

Anyways, you're invoking magic to explain how we can have free will while at the same time God knows what we will do before we do it. If he knows that I will do something, then I have no choice but to do that thing. If I do something different than God "knew" I would do, then he obviously didn't know I would do it. You can't get around that without special pleading. What you're saying is nothing new and has been rebutted countless times.

And there has been countless rebuttals of those rebuttals. God isn't inside our time domain so you have to think differently to understand.

 

[JD50]

If you quote him insulting me again then I will.

No, there is no "after" with God. He is outside of the timeline so he can see it all from beginning to end. Another analogy is you sitting watching a parade, float by float and somebody else seeing the whole thing from the sky.


And there has been countless rebuttals of those rebuttals. God isn't inside our time domain so you have to think differently to understand.

Special pleading. That is not a rebuttal, it is a fallacy.

 

[buckshot24]

Well said. Buck can you counter this?

Nobody would choose jam over ham for breakfast.

Anyway it's more of the same. God just knows what John chose for breakfast but he had complete freedom to pick what he wanted. Really not that difficult.