The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[MagickMan]

Yours is a tired shtick.

and yours is a very tiny brain. :\

As I've shown, it is inconsistent with other common Christian claims about their god and the universe, particularly free will, which in turn then has soteriological implications. The conundrum was somewhat recognized by the Calvinists and is reflected in their core tenets of unconditional election and predestination.

How in the fuck does some deity knowing what will happen affect your decision-making? Knowing an end result doesn't change another subject's freedom to choose. If you have a fate, and know nothing about it, then for you it's the same as it not existing.

 

[soulcougher73]

I liken it to being able to see all lines of probability, more than knowing exactly what a person will choose to do.

Goalposts successful moved and field goal attempt avoided.

 

[FelixDeCat]

 

[soulcougher73]

and yours is a very tiny brain. :\



How in the fuck does some deity knowing what will happen affect your decision-making? Knowing an end result doesn't change another subject's freedom to choose. If you have a fate, and know nothing about it, then for you it's the same as it not existing.

You ever heard of "the illusion of choice"? That's what this is. If he knows what's to happen that's because he deems it to happen. Basically your saying life is predetermined by God yet we still have free will. Just can't happen it's not logical in the slightest.

 

[JD50]

I know full well what special pleading is. How am I committing special pleading!?

You don't understand how you are applying special rules to God without providing adequate justification for the exemption? You may need to think a little deeper on this one.

 

[JD50]

Is logic the best way to get through to people who didn't arrive at their beliefs using logic?

Most people use logic in every other part of their life, for some reason they suspend logic when it comes to religion. So yes it can be effective, it was for me.

 

[fskimospy]

If you quote him insulting me again then I will.

No, there is no "after" with God. He is outside of the timeline so he can see it all from beginning to end. Another analogy is you sitting watching a parade, float by float and somebody else seeing the whole thing from the sky.

And there has been countless rebuttals of those rebuttals. God isn't inside our time domain so you have to think differently to understand.

This to me is far worse than God simply not being omnipotent or omniscient. He creates a person and endows them with 'free will' despite the full knowledge that such a person will end up being condemned to an eternity of torment based on the use of that free will?

That is unspeakably evil. I would hope that if God were to exist he wouldn't be such a malevolent entity. If that's really how you think it is if I were you I would question why I worshipped such a monster.

 

[soulcougher73]

You don't understand how you are applying special rules to God without providing adequate justification for the exemption? You may need to think a little deeper on this one.

Well played sir, well played

 

[soulcougher73]

This to me is far worse than God simply not being omnipotent or omniscient. He creates a person and endows them with 'free will' despite the full knowledge that such a person will end up being condemned to an eternity of torment based on the use of that free will?

That is unspeakably evil. I would hope that if God were to exist he wouldn't be such a malevolent entity. If that's really how you think it is if I were you I would question why I worshipped such a monster.

Woah. Who let eskimopie into a religious thread?

 

[buckshot24]

You don't understand how you are applying special rules to God without providing adequate justification for the exemption? You may need to think a little deeper on this one.

What special rules?

 

[buckshot24]

This to me is far worse than God simply not being omnipotent or omniscient. He creates a person and endows them with 'free will' despite the full knowledge that such a person will end up being condemned to an eternity of torment based on the use of that free will?

That is unspeakably evil. I would hope that if God were to exist he wouldn't be such a malevolent entity. If that's really how you think it is if I were you I would question why I worshipped such a monster.

You probably think evil doesn't really exist.

 

[fskimospy]

You probably think evil doesn't really exist.

Of course I do. I don't believe in cartoonish evil like the devil, but evil things happen in the world every day, done by evil people.

While I don't believe in god, I sincerely cannot imagine a set of circumstances where an omnipotent and omniscient being could deliberately create a creature that he knows will be condemned to an eternity of torment and have that be anything but an evil act.

 

[buckshot24]

Of course I do. I don't believe in cartoonish evil like the devil, but evil things happen in the world every day, done by evil people.

While I don't believe in god, I sincerely cannot imagine a set of circumstances where an omnipotent and omniscient being could deliberately create a creature that he knows will be condemned to an eternity of torment and have that be anything but an evil act.

What criteria do you use to determine if something is evil? Opinion?

 

[JD50]

What special rules?

No, there is no "after" with God. He is outside of the timeline so he can see it all from beginning to end.

God isn't inside our time domain

You don't consider those rules special? Where is your justification?

And again, that still doesn't solve your problem. If something can "see it all from beginning to end" then every action has already been decided and we have no free will. That alone doesn't mean God caused our actions, but when you claim that he is the creator and he is omnipotent, then he is the cause.

 

[buckshot24]

You don't consider those rules special? Where is your justification?

What are the standard rules for an entity who created time and space and how do you justify them?

This is an extremely week point you're making here.

And again, that still doesn't solve your problem. If something can "see it all from beginning to end" then every action has already been decided and we have no free will. That alone doesn't mean God caused our actions, but when you claim that he is the creator and he is omnipotent, then he is the cause.

I don't have a problem. I'm sorry you can't figure this out, it is really not that complicated.

Shall we end this now?

 

[fskimospy]

What criteria do you use to determine if something is evil? Opinion?

Of course.

Now that we've established that I believe evil exists, do you agree that creating something that you know with certainty will live a life of eternal torment is evil? If not, why?

 

[soulcougher73]

I don't have a problem. I'm sorry you can't figure this out, it is really not that complicated.

Shall we end this now?

This is him trying to get out of the corner hes backed into. Cant explain it and wants to end it cause "were just too dumb to figure it out...and cause reasons"

 

[fskimospy]

You don't consider those rules special? Where is your justification?

And again, that still doesn't solve your problem. If something can "see it all from beginning to end" then every action has already been decided and we have no free will. That alone doesn't mean God caused our actions, but when you claim that he is the creator and he is omnipotent, then he is the cause.

This is why religious people should never claim omnipotence and omniscience for their chosen deity. Not only does it create all sorts of logical problems and eliminate the possibility of free will, but as I've mentioned it also makes the creator deity evil as he crafted a universe of suffering in which large amounts of his creations will be deliberately cast into a pit of eternal torment for breaking laws that he knew with certainty they would break before he created them.

Much better to have him just be extraordinarily powerful and extraordinarily smart. Then all these problems go away.

 

[JD50]

What are the standard rules for an entity who created time and space and how do you justify them?

I have never claimed such a being even exists, the burden of proof is on you.

This is an extremely week point you're making here.

Then I'm surprised you're having such a difficult time supporting your position

I don't have a problem. I'm sorry you can't figure this out, it is really not that complicated.

Shall we end this now?

If you can't come up with a rebuttal that is not a logical fallacy then yes you might want to go ahead and end it.

 

[buckshot24]

This is him trying to get out of the corner hes backed into. Cant explain it and wants to end it cause "were just too dumb to figure it out...and cause reasons"

We've gone back and forth for many posts. At some point we have to move on.

 

[buckshot24]

I have never claimed such a being even exists, the burden of proof is on you.

So you can't complain when I use "rules" that you have no basis for disagreeing with.

 

[buckshot24]

Of course.

Now that we've established that I believe evil exists, do you agree that creating something that you know with certainty will live a life of eternal torment is evil? If not, why?

This is kind of like saying you believe bad cookies exist because you don't like them based upon your subjective opinion. We all have opinions and I don't need to justify to you why I like chocolate chip cookies over oatmeal raisin.

 

[JD50]

So you can't complain when I use "rules" that you have no basis for disagreeing with.

Your rules equate to magic. Yes I have a basis for disagreeing with that.

 

[buckshot24]

Your rules equate to magic. Yes I can disagree with that.

I think its time for us to say goodbye. Going on the list.

 

[JD50]

I think its time for us to say goodbye. Going on the list.

Typical