The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[fskimospy]

This is kind of like saying you believe bad cookies exist because you don't like them based upon your subjective opinion. We all have opinions and I don't need to justify to you why I like chocolate chip cookies over oatmeal raisin.

Well if your position is 'I have my opinion and I have no need to justify or explain it' then why are you bothering to discuss the matter at all?

 

[buckshot24]

Well if your position is 'I have my opinion and I have no need to justify or explain it' then why are you bothering to discuss the matter at all?

You want me to argue against your opinion and I see no fruit in that.

 

[fskimospy]

You want me to argue against your opinion and I see no fruit in that.

I don't want you to argue against my opinion, I want you to explain why you think differently.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Nobody would choose jam over ham for breakfast.

Anyway it's more of the same. God just knows what John chose for breakfast but he had complete freedom to pick what he wanted. Really not that difficult.

I missed this before, but it is not a rebuttal to the argument. It's just a re-statement of the claim which the argument clearly falsified. The argument explains the conditions that "choice" necessitates, and how those conditions are impossible when God exists. Without addressing either of these facets, the conclusion stands.

 

[buckshot24]

I don't want you to argue against my opinion, I want you to explain why you think differently.

First, I don't think there is a torture chamber called hell. Secondly, if there is a God and He did set up hell then our opinions on if it is good or evil amount to nothing. They are uninformed and baseless. God knows more about this than us so it isn't a smart move to question Him. Thirdly, a situation where you spend an eternity with people you don't want to spend time on earth doesn't seem like heaven to me.

Why did He set it up this way? We can only speculate but I don't believe we're in any position to question, meaningfully, God on how He should have done it. Especially using subjective opinion.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

So you can't complain when I use "rules" that you have no basis for disagreeing with.

But that's just false. I can complain all I want.

Your argument has taken the form of "there are undesirable consequences if X is true, therefore X is false."

I don't care if you don't like the consequences of the fact that morality is subjective, you haven't shown that morality is objective. Putting the wild-card "God" into play doesn't accomplish it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

and yours is a very tiny brain. :\

Oh, ouch. That stings.

How in the fuck does some deity knowing what will happen affect your decision-making? Knowing an end result doesn't change another subject's freedom to choose. If you have a fate, and know nothing about it, then for you it's the same as it not existing.

These questions have all been answered in earlier posts. I encourage you to read them.

 

[Moonbeam]

Of course.

Now that we've established that I believe evil exists, do you agree that creating something that you know with certainty will live a life of eternal torment is evil? If not, why?

If you read through this thread perhaps you've noticed I have a different take on God than either literal religionists or Atheists, a take which prompts me to want to explore your comment further, if you will indulge me:

In my opinion, as you probably know, I regard your opinion far more highly than I do the opinion of most others, and for the reasons that I feel that logic and reason lead ineluctably to the same place. In short, in my opinion, some opinions are much better than others, and I also share your opinion that a God as you described above would be a monster.

But what if my opinion was that it was OK to murder innocent children because God will take them to heaven and they will be in a better place. This in not a terribly unknown opinion espoused by many a father who executes his family to save them from life's misery. Is such an opinion equally valid as yours. You know it's not but how do you know? I am pretty sure nobody will ever be able to convince you that the two opinions are equal.

I don't know if buckshot was going to the same place as I am trying to, but I have a feeling he was. At any rate, I do not agree that evil is a matter of opinion but if you admit to that fact you step off the rational bus into well, a place with no name.

buckshot won't argue opinions, but I will. I just can't use logic to do so. I know without a doubt of any kind that if a loving God exists He does not approve of the murder of children. I believe this to be truth and not opinion. There is truth and then there is opinion and the distinction is based on whether the mind is unified by love or sintered by hate. It is by this means, here actually useless words about a state that can't be had via words, that lies at the root of inalienable rights and truth that are self evident.

 

[Moonbeam]

First, I don't think there is a torture chamber called hell. Secondly, if there is a God and He did set up hell then our opinions on if it is good or evil amount to nothing. They are uninformed and baseless. God knows more about this than us so it isn't a smart move to question Him. Thirdly, a situation where you spend an eternity with people you don't want to spend time on earth doesn't seem like heaven to me.

Why did He set it up this way? We can only speculate but I don't believe we're in any position to question, meaningfully, God on how He should have done it. Especially using subjective opinion.

This is where we differ. You think it's not a smart move to question God. I think anybody who can blindly accept any kind of god, just because an old book says this or that, is dangerous and fanatical. God gave you moral judgment so you could use it to think for yourself.

 

[fskimospy]

If you read through this thread perhaps you've noticed I have a different take on God than either literal religionists or Atheists, a take which prompts me to want to explore your comment further, if you will indulge me:

In my opinion, as you probably know, I regard your opinion far more highly than I do the opinion of most others, and for the reasons that I feel that logic and reason lead ineluctably to the same place. In short, in my opinion, some opinions are much better than others, and I also share your opinion that a God as you described above would be a monster.

But what if my opinion was that it was OK to murder innocent children because God will take them to heaven and they will be in a better place. This in not a terribly unknown opinion espoused by many a father who executes his family to save them from life's misery. Is such an opinion equally valid as yours. You know it's not but how do you know? I am pretty sure nobody will ever be able to convince you that the two opinions are equal.

I think religions have wrestled with this problem throughout their histories. I mean if you truly believe that paradise awaits after this life the logical choice is absolutely to kill everyone you love and then yourself. (or, depending on your respect for others' choices, at least kill yourself.)

You're right that I wouldn't condone child murder (shocking, I know!), but it's because it removes each child's freedom of choice. Even if it would be 'helping' them by sending them to paradise, that's their choice to make. Honestly, if someone wants to commit suicide because they think they will go to heaven for some reason I don't have a huge problem with that. I'd want to make sure they weren't in the throes of depression or some other mental illness, but outside of that...

I don't know if buckshot was going to the same place as I am trying to, but I have a feeling he was. At any rate, I do not agree that evil is a matter of opinion but if you admit to that fact you step off the rational bus into well, a place with no name.

buckshot won't argue opinions, but I will. I just can't use logic to do so. I know without a doubt of any kind that if a loving God exists He does not approve of the murder of children. I believe this to be truth and not opinion. There is truth and then there is opinion and the distinction is based on whether the mind is unified by love or sintered by hate. It is by this means, here actually useless words about a state that can't be had via words, that lies at the root of inalienable rights and truth that are self evident.

I can appreciate that view and I appreciate that you have enough self awareness to recognize that it's not about logic and reason at that point, but something else. I wish more people were as aware as you are!

 

[soulcougher73]

If you read through this thread perhaps you've noticed I have a different take on God than either literal religionists or Atheists, a take which prompts me to want to explore your comment further, if you will indulge me:

In my opinion, as you probably know, I regard your opinion far more highly than I do the opinion of most others, and for the reasons that I feel that logic and reason lead ineluctably to the same place. In short, in my opinion, some opinions are much better than others, and I also share your opinion that a God as you described above would be a monster.

But what if my opinion was that it was OK to murder innocent children because God will take them to heaven and they will be in a better place. This in not a terribly unknown opinion espoused by many a father who executes his family to save them from life's misery. Is such an opinion equally valid as yours. You know it's not but how do you know? I am pretty sure nobody will ever be able to convince you that the two opinions are equal.

I don't know if buckshot was going to the same place as I am trying to, but I have a feeling he was. At any rate, I do not agree that evil is a matter of opinion but if you admit to that fact you step off the rational bus into well, a place with no name.

buckshot won't argue opinions, but I will. I just can't use logic to do so. I know without a doubt of any kind that if a loving God exists He does not approve of the murder of children. I believe this to be truth and not opinion. There is truth and then there is opinion and the distinction is based on whether the mind is unified by love or sintered by hate. It is by this means, here actually useless words about a state that can't be had via words, that lies at the root of inalienable rights and truth that are self evident.

I know this wasnt directed at me. But ill give my opinion I dont think id want to worship or believe in such a god that would allow those 2 options. I dont want a god who thinks saving my child from the hell on earth will get him to heaven if i kill him. Id rather a god create earth so that isnt an option to begin with. If that means for him to not have created evil, than so be it. An all powerful loving god should create a paradise where evil doesnt reside...and show himself.

That's a god i could get behind

 

[fskimospy]

First, I don't think there is a torture chamber called hell. Secondly, if there is a God and He did set up hell then our opinions on if it is good or evil amount to nothing. They are uninformed and baseless. God knows more about this than us so it isn't a smart move to question Him. Thirdly, a situation where you spend an eternity with people you don't want to spend time on earth doesn't seem like heaven to me.

Why did He set it up this way? We can only speculate but I don't believe we're in any position to question, meaningfully, God on how He should have done it. Especially using subjective opinion.

So if I understand you right, you're saying that even if god were creating people for the express purpose of tormenting them for all eternity you would not call this evil because you don't think we can question god's plan?

This seems to be a statement of faith that god cannot be evil under any circumstances, which kind of lets him off pretty easy, wouldn't you say?

 

[buckshot24]

This is where we differ. You think it's not a smart move to question God. I think anybody who can blindly accept any kind of god, just because an old book says this or that, is dangerous and fanatical. God gave you moral judgment so you could use it to think for yourself.

I'm saying we can't value our own opinions as if they are anything more than that. If there is a God, he knows much more than us. I question God all the time but at the same time I realize who I am and my limitations.

 

[MongGrel]

I think its time for us to say goodbye. Going on the list.

Watch out guys, he's making a list, and checking it twice.

 

[buckshot24]

So if I understand you right, you're saying that even if god were creating people for the express purpose of tormenting them for all eternity you would not call this evil because you don't think we can question god's plan?

This seems to be a statement of faith that god cannot be evil under any circumstances, which kind of lets him off pretty easy, wouldn't you say?

Don't you think that is a bit loaded?

 

[buckshot24]

Watch out guys, he's making a list, and checking it twice.

And you just made it.

 

[MongGrel]

And you just made it.

Thank you.

 

[fskimospy]

Don't you think that is a bit loaded?

Well I'm taking it to an extreme on purpose to make the point clearer, but I don't think I said anything inconsistent with your position.

 

[WelshBloke]

Thank you.

Question is did you make the nice list or naughty list?

 

[MongGrel]

I'm on the coal list I'm sure.

 

[soulcougher73]

Watch out guys, he's making a list, and checking it twice.

I made it too, but hes since responded to me...so...hrrmmm lol

 

[buckshot24]

Well I'm taking it to an extreme on purpose to make the point clearer, but I don't think I said anything inconsistent with your position.

Of course you did.

 

[fskimospy]

Of course you did.

Such as?

 

[Moonbeam]

I know this wasnt directed at me. But ill give my opinion I dont think id want to worship or believe in such a god that would allow those 2 options. I dont want a god who thinks saving my child from the hell on earth will get him to heaven if i kill him. Id rather a god create earth so that isnt an option to begin with. If that means for him to not have created evil, than so be it. An all powerful loving god should create a paradise where evil doesnt reside...and show himself.

That's a god i could get behind

In the first place the Paradise you look for is within you, but you don't know how to see it. As I have said over and over, God did not create evil, we did, via language and naming. You use the eyes of duality to seek the unity of love, but duality can't ever be unity. A jump or shift in consciousness is requited to leave one state of awareness and enter one that is completely different, just as you can't experience joy in a state of misery. In religion that jump state is called surrender or Grace or whatever. God is not a being or some magic in the sky. God IS when the self that seeks his love in not and Gods heart, your heart opens within. God is only then when YOU ARE. This is a mystery that can't be given to anybody with words. The world does not change but your attitude, the way you see it changes completely. One minute you aren't and the next you are.

Except as you be a little child you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is totally true but it's not obvious what it means. You have to die to all the shit that child was made to carry. That shit is what we call the self, we who live in ego.

 

[buckshot24]

Such as?

God doesn't create people for the "express" purpose of going to hell and being tormented.