The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[JD50]

Yet it is. Buck-o here would have us believe that a perfect marksman is not responsible for the path of his inerrantly aimed bullet, even though he pulled the trigger knowing precisely where it would travel.

In crazy religion world, bullets have free will.

Quoting so Buck can see this, I'm assuming he's still ignoring people that he doesn't like.

 

[Moonbeam]

Bah. The trolling is just too obvious now.


I'm out, lads. I'd like ta keep my sanity intact.

If this threatens your sanity, you didn't have much to begin with. Insanity is assuming the faithful can be reached by reason and that you had some obligation to straighten them out. All you showed for the religious is contempt and the fact that you need saving. Maybe you can see that the god the religious worship, if he is a god of hate, then he is also not the real God. You got as far as knowing the god they believe to be God does not exist, not that the God about whom they have mistaken ideas does not exist. Even your contempt for gods of hate indicate you're a believer. You have certain faith that no god of hate exists and that's a step in the right direction.

 

[bshole]

That is only if he understood his bible. But he ignores those parts out of inconvenience to his daily life.

The thing I don't understand is why the Christian God even bothers. He knows BEFORE he creates each human whether they will end up Heaven or Hell. Why bother with the whole fucking charade of creating a universe and mortal life? It makes no sense at all. Just create humans in heaven and hell and be done with it, you know unequivocally what they will choose already. There isn't a single COHERENT reason for an omniscient being to create the universe. Maybe that would be too honest for God's sensibilities....

 

[Moonbeam]

Why would/should this be a problem?

Belief is belief, the whole point of it is that it doesnt need any external validation.

Why is a belief in Santa Claus any less worthy of respect than a belief in Vishnu, or the Christian God, or Odin?

Well, for one thing, you will notice that we are arguing about the nature and existence or non-existence of God to which the Santa Claus argument was brought, and not the thread about where we argue whether Santa exists and to which a belief in gods is introduced as refutation. Can you explain to me why that is?

Secondly, and as a completely different take on this question, Santa does exist. Try to think how that is an argument that can be supported yourself before you ask me to prove it.

 

[Moonbeam]

That is only if he understood his bible. But he ignores those parts out of inconvenience to his daily life.

Why do you complain that he does not have a literal understanding of a book that you believe is full of shit? I would think he deserves some applause.

 

[soulcougher73]

Why do you complain that he does not have a literal understanding of a book that you believe is full of shit? I would think he deserves some applause.

Because if you're going to believe something ludicrous then you better own it fully. Not the the convenient parts.

 

[soulcougher73]

The thing I don't understand is why the Christian God even bothers. He knows BEFORE he creates each human whether they will end up Heaven or Hell. Why bother with the whole fucking charade of creating a universe and mortal life? It makes no sense at all. Just create humans in heaven and hell and be done with it, you know unequivocally what they will choose already. There isn't a single COHERENT reason for an omniscient being to create the universe. Maybe that would be too honest for God's sensibilities....

Well yeah that makes sense to logical people. Unfortunately for us not all of us came out that way. Some need inconsistent fairy tales to make it through the day.

 

[Moonbeam]

The thing I don't understand is why the Christian God even bothers. He knows BEFORE he creates each human whether they will end up Heaven or Hell. Why bother with the whole fucking charade of creating a universe and mortal life? It makes no sense at all. Just create the humans in heaven and hell and be done with it, you know unequivocally what they will choose already. There isn't a single COHERENT reason for an omniscient being to create the universe.

Why do you babble on and on about who God is when you don't believe in Him? The false joke god you were taught to believe in caused you great suffering to abandon. You claim your life is not a mess. You want others not to suffer your fate, by slandering that god that isn't there? It's childish. You are a sick puppy and what you need is to find a way to mend, to find a way back to where you began, where you were when you used to be happy. Where are your instincts that revolt against your self imposed misery?

 

[buckshot24]

If God created everything and he's omniscient then no one has free will, our actions have already been decided by the being that chose to create us that way. This is simple logic.

This is simply wrong logic.

When I watch a recorded basketball game the outcome isn't determined by the tape the free will choices of all the players were freely made and decided who won the game.

 

[buckshot24]

Quoting so Buck can see this, I'm assuming he's still ignoring people that he doesn't like.

He's on the list because of his dishonest form of argumentation. His origin of life two step is what put him there. He's a hack. I have 2 people on my ignore list, you be blocked if what you said was true.

Nowhere am I saying God isn't "responsible", I'm saying He didn't directly cause evil.

 

[JD50]

This is simply wrong logic.

When I watch a recorded basketball game the outcome isn't determined by the tape the free will choices of all the players were freely made and decided who won the game.

That's because it already happened. When you watch a recorded basketball game can the outcome change?

 

[JD50]

He's on the list because of his dishonest form of argumentation. His origin of life two step is what put him there. He's a hack. I have 2 people on my ignore list, you be blocked if what you said was true.

Nowhere am I saying God isn't "responsible", I'm saying He didn't directly cause evil.

He created everything knowing exactly what would happen, he could have created it differently. If you create something knowing exactly what it will do and you have the power to create it differently then you are the cause.

 

[buckshot24]

That's because it already happened. When you watch a recorded basketball game can the outcome change?

Why don't you think about that for a while.

 

[JD50]

Why don't you think about that for a while.

Instead of playing games why don't you just make your point?

 

[buckshot24]

He created everything knowing exactly what would happen, he could have created it differently. If you create something knowing exactly what it will do and you have the power to create it differently then you are the cause.

Wrong. (I'll keep my rebuttal short since we've already been through this.)

 

[buckshot24]

Instead of playing games why don't you just make your point?

I want you to try and think about this without being told. You're not thinking deeply enough to understand.

 

[JD50]

Wrong. (I'll keep my rebuttal short since we've already been through this.)

Yes, we've been through this before and I've been through this with many theists. You have not offered an explanation as to why I'm wrong.

Edit - Cerpin has already explained why you're wrong

 

[buckshot24]

Why do you babble on and on about who God is when you don't believe in Him? The false joke god you were taught to believe in caused you great suffering to abandon. You claim your life is not a mess. You want others not to suffer your fate, by slandering that god that isn't there? It's childish. You are a sick puppy and what you need is to find a way to mend, to find a way back to where you began, where you were when you used to be happy. Where are your instincts that revolt against your self imposed misery?

"God doesn't exist, and I hate Him!"

 

[JD50]

I want you to try and think about this without being told. You're not thinking deeply enough to understand.

Are you going to make your point or not?

 

[JD50]

He(?) seems to be a Matt Slick wannabe. I don't expect any Intellectual Honesty is forthcoming or even possible.

Nailed it.

 

[Moonbeam]

He created everything knowing exactly what would happen, he could have created it differently. If you create something knowing exactly what it will do and you have the power to create it differently then you are the cause.

What if everything that happens happens as it must happen. What if all that happens is the outcome of what just happened. Now we take a child who has the potential to manifest his full human potential in every direction and turn him into an American who is afraid he will lose his job to Mexicans. His fear will affect his conscious decisions. He had to potential, say to be Christ like, but instead he becomes a fanatic. There is no such thing as evil but what we create with our minds and we act on our beliefs. God created perfection and we turned it into hell all by ourselves. These are the facts from which the religious and atheists create all these rubbish arguments about predetermination and God creating evil and being evil because he did. Humans created a world of duality, a world of delusion, that does not exist. Can the human being make a full recovery, that is the only question anybody should concern themselves with.

 

[buckshot24]

Yes, we've been through this before and I've been through this with many theists. You have not offered an explanation as to why I'm wrong.

I don't need to convince you that you are wrong for you to be wrong.

Premise I reject in your argument.

God can do anything and everything.

No, God cannot do anything and everything. God may have the power but He can't do anything that goes against his nature. God can't make round squares if he did then all squares would be round and we're talking about a mere definition.

You have the power to do all sorts of things that you freely choose to not do. You have the power to murder children but you choose not to because it goes against your nature. You have the power to eat fried cockroaches but you don't. (assuming).

Edit - Cerpin has already explained why you're wrong

In that bit you quoted? Strawmanning my position doesn't help.

 

[buckshot24]

Are you going to make your point or not?

No. Think about it more deeply instead of trying to beat me in a debate.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

This is simply wrong logic.

When I watch a recorded basketball game the outcome isn't determined by the tape the free will choices of all the players were freely made and decided who won the game.

Holy shit, I knew you were stupid, but I didn't think you were THAT stupid.

A recorded basketball game happened in the past. God's alleged knowledge is of the future. I do not exist to choose my future -- God chooses it for me when he creates the future all at once.

Fuck's sake I hate being right all the time...

 

[Moonbeam]

Because if you're going to believe something ludicrous then you better own it fully. Not the the convenient parts.

How are you any different, You take the ludicrous parts and assume there is no God. You do exactly the same thing. You don't believe in a god that can't possibly exist but you don't see that your excited defense of that position as being absurd. Why not shout on the rooftops you have no bananas in your clothes hamper. Partial ownership of the ludicrous is better than full ownership and you should try it.

Why not ask yourself, since there are billions of folk who believe in this fantasy called God or truth or enlightenment, or something really odd and different, what the fuck the origin and basis of such a feeling could be. But you don't have that feeling and don't get it either, so everybody who believes in something they can't prove is there must be inferior to you. They may in the majority be nuts, but they are not any farther away than you are. They believe in something and you believe you know what that something can't be and go from there to the notion that any kind of something must therefore not exist.