The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[FelixDeCat]

There's a difference in that while the creatures in my fantasies distribute punishment and pleasure I don't let them bleed into the real world. It's when you start thinking that your imaginary creatures are real that the difference becomes clear.

Would you say that you understand and know everything? It is a fantasy to believe God does not exist.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Did you know that some bad decisions people make in life - like financial, personal or legal - stem from the same patterns of thought related to sin?

Its easy to see how one bad thing leads to another. But what if you knew that quitting a particular action (as being advised directly by Jesus through the Holy Spirit) would also improve the rest of your life!

 

[WelshBloke]

Would you say that you understand and know everything?

Absolutely not. I certainly wouldn't claim that a mythological being was real just because I wanted it to be real.

It is a fantasy to believe God does not exist.

Is it really? Is it a fantasy to say that Harry Potter does not exist? Is it a fantasy to say that Thor does not exist? Is it a fantasy... Well let's say that this list could go on.

 

[Moonbeam]

But why? Why would it be those things? My life isn't empty, hollow or meaningless.

It doesn't matter what you believe. It just simply doesn't matter. It's up to you to live a happy life. Through the billions that have lived before us, the remotest untouched tribes and even in most cases the major religions of today, the vast majority are happy people. It only becomes a problem when free thought is hindered(proselytizing), progress is hindered, and others are killed in the name of your God. The idea that each of these people went to each other person's Hell when they died is obviously completely ludicrous.

I used to believe in a God because that's what I was taught growing up. I didn't know any better. The reality is that nothing would change - except your perception of the world would "suddenly" fall apart. You would have to start over. You would have to think about everything. You would suddenly be accountable for all of your actions. No putting it in God's hands. No asking God for advice. That's a hard thing to have happen, I admit. It takes time to process.

But these are good things. It's a good thing to think for yourself. It's a good thing to take responsibility for your actions. It's good to be in control of your life.

My life didn't suddenly become empty, hollow and meaningless when I realized it was all a bunch of nonsense. Quite the contrary! My life would be empty, hollow and meaningless if I had to be "god fearing, or else"! I do not want to be a slave of fear.

Your religion didn't exist 2000 years ago. I sincerely hope it does not exist 2000 years from now. The world will be a better place when the business that is organized religion is relegated to the history books. Christian Mythology... Has a nice ring to it, eh?

Religions are bridges to an altered state of consciousness, the state of egoless being. The point of faith is surrender of ego self interest to the manifestation of the recognition that everything that is is exactly as God willed accompanied by the faith that all that happens is for the good.

It is not the name on the bridge that matters but the presence of this state of grace, surrender, egolessness, acceptance, etc., whatever you want to call it. The death of ego for an atheist is perhaps a more problematic matter since the step that one must take can't be taken on faith. Here the utter recognition that everything is meaningless is critical. Just as the religious person may fall in love with the ornaments of his bridge, the atheist creates his own subjective reality by assuming that what he thinks is reality is actually real.

The state of egolessness, surrender, acceptance, and so on, whatever you want to call it can also be described as a state of oneness. There are no world that can explain what a state of oneness feels like or what it is. It is something you can know only by experiencing it. This, of course, assumes that such a state exists. It does not exist for those without the experience of it, and it does for those who have tasted.

One can't be in two different states of consciousness at the same time. Either you are a separate individual I in your self perception or you are infinite, as it were, at one with the universe. Nobody can be given this state of consciousness and nobody can be denied it if one can get past ones ego.

Naturally one can't get past ones ego as long as it's the ego trying to get past itself, and that is the problem. We do not see that everything we think is thought by the ego. Thinking is the assumption that what one thinks is real, for example that good and evil exist. These ideas are inculcated by language, and produce a dualistic state. Once you believe that evil exists you can be made to feel evil and once that happens you get an ego to protect you from living in a permanent state of misery.

In short, once you buy into the lie that there is evil in the world and you are the source, you deny who you were and become somebody else, a good guy in your own head. In order to get back to where you started, perfect and whole at birth, you have to undo this belief in the goodness of your ego. To deny the goodness of the ego is not to say you are evil but to collapse the notion that good and evil exists.

I am all for the destruction of fanatical religious belief, but that does not mean to me that it is religion that is evil. It is supposed to be a bridge and many more cross by that means than they do through atheism.

My aim is not to disabuse the religious of their religious faith. I hope their faith eventually transcends their reliance of the literal meaning of religious texts put in them by folk still full of ego. I want to offer something to atheists, first that they end their silly assault on false religion when anybody with sense will see through, because it is real faith that makes surrender of the ego possible, and secondly to provide some small understanding to atheists that a non theistic bridge is also available to them. There is one truth and it covers us all, in my opinion. The kingdom if heaven is within you.

 

[Eli]

Yes, I was taught about Catholicism/Christianity by my parents and received the sacraments as a child. My faith has evolved with me. But even before I fully understood things I knew God existed. He was first made manifest to me back in 1974. I wish I could tell you the exact experience but its personal.

I have always done pretty much whatever I wanted to in life - even bad things - and Ill bet you and I have had many of the same experiences. But there is a line that I do not cross and those rules are written out in the Ten Commandments. There are times when I broke some, made reparations and sought forgiveness. We learn from our mistakes but sometime make them again. Careful to learn from your mistakes or suffer the consequences!

Beyond the Ten Commandments is sin itself. We all sin as there are varying degrees of it. Did you know that some bad decisions people make in life - like financial, personal or legal - stem from the same patterns of thought related to sin?

Its easy to see how one bad thing leads to another. But what if you knew that quitting a particular action (as being advised directly by Jesus through the Holy Spirit) would also improve the rest of your life! Jesus will speak to you. He is alive and wants us to go to Heaven.

You can still do whatever you want to. Just dont break the Ten Commandments.


ps. I have talked to many people that believe in God or want to believe in God but have a hangup with organized religion. My oldest brother is one of them. But they should not stop them from believing altogether.

The only universal law is do unto others as you wish done to you. Requires no God.

All of the other nonsense in the "Ten Commandments" makes you nothing more than a Slave Of Fear.

I hope your ears bleed.

 

[WelshBloke]

Religions are bridges to an altered state of consciousness, the state of egoless being. The point of faith is surrender of ego self interest to the manifestation of the recognition that everything that is is exactly as God willed accompanied by the faith that all that happens is for the good.

Which is ironic when you consider that being part of a religion is claiming that your beliefs are the one true way and that every one else is wrong regardless of proof.

 

[MajinCry]

The ten commandments?

That's Old Testament. Don't most Christians ignore that?

Well, since Felix doesn't, does he also enforce this commandment from Deuteronomy 22:28-29?

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

 

[shady28]

The ten commandments?

That's Old Testament. Don't most Christians ignore that?

Well, since Felix doesn't, does he also enforce this commandment from Deuteronomy 22:28-29?

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

If you do a bit more research on this, you'll find that there were actually 3 choices.

If a man raped a married woman, he was just stoned or burned to death.

If a man raped a virgin who was engaged, he was also stoned or burned to death.

If a man raped a virgin who was not engaged, the father actually had the choice to either have him pay and marry his daughter so that she could be supported (because the woman would no longer be 'marriageable' in that culture, leaving her future one of extreme poverty) or have the rapist stoned/burned to death.

As far as OT abolishing the NT :

Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…"

and Matthew 22:36-40 :

6 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


And what happens if someone lies in their testimony and gets caught? This actually makes a ton of sense and I wish this still happened. This is where the eye for an eye stuff comes from, also often taken out of context, if you lie about something that could result in someone being executed and are caught you would be executed as a warning to others (or receive whatever punishment the person you were lying about would have received had your lie not been discovered):

"Deuteronomy 19:16-21 "If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, 17 "then both men in the controversy shall stand before Yahweh, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. 18 "And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19 "then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 "And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21 "Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. "

 

[MajinCry]

If you do a bit more research on this, you'll find that there were actually 3 choices.

If a man raped a married woman, he was just stoned or burned to death.

If a man raped a virgin who was engaged, he was also stoned or burned to death.

If a man raped a virgin who was not engaged, the father actually had the choice to either have him pay and marry his daughter so that she could be supported (because the woman would no longer be 'marriageable' in that culture, leaving her future one of extreme poverty) or have the rapist stoned/burned to death.

Rather than give a yes/no answer, which would quickly ascertain your character, you instead decide to wiggle your way out of giving an answer. How quaint.

But I shall indulge you.


Three choices? What are you on about?

That first one you presented is for when a man rapes his neighbour's wife in a city, and the woman is also put to death. But of course, you'd lie about that commandment, as you know how evil it is.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 - "If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

The second "choice"? See the first one.

The third one is from the commandment I posted, and at no point is choice made in the matter. You've made up that last part. Feel free to prove me wrong and show me the commandment.


"Choices"

Jesus wept, dude. They're "COMMANDMENTS" not "Recommendations".

As far as OT abolishing the NT :

Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…"

Yeah, the NT doesn't abolish the OT. It enforces it. I've made that claim earlier in this thread.

And "the Law" he's referring to in 5:17 is different from the one he's talking about in 5:18; Jesus fulfilled the Sacrificial law in Leviticus 1:1-6, by being the "ultimate sacrifice", as we've often heard.

and Matthew 22:36-40 :

6 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Right. As line 37 states, you are to love Yahweh. That is, you are to worship him and obey him.

39 Is literal when it says "neighbour", which you know, due to all the commandments which command slaughter of foreign people (e.g, Deuteronomy 13:13-19), taking foreigners as slaves but not fellow Jews (e.g, Leviticus 25:44-46) and raping the women of men that you are at war with (e.g, Deuteronomy 21:10-14).

And what happens if someone lies in their testimony and gets caught? This actually makes a ton of sense and I wish this still happened. This is where the eye for an eye stuff comes from, also often taken out of context, if you lie about something that could result in someone being executed and are caught you would be executed as a warning to others (or receive whatever punishment the person you were lying about would have received had your lie not been discovered):

"Deuteronomy 19:16-21 "If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, 17 "then both men in the controversy shall stand before Yahweh, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. 18 "And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19 "then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 "And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21 "Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. "

You'd rather that false witnesses must be put to death? What if they were forced to do it? You'd still have them put to death? And you "WISH" for that?

The fuck is wrong with y-Ah, you follow the OT.

Never mind the fact that Yahweh controls each and every one of us, so if someone does give false testimony, that's Yahweh making us do so.

Proverbs 16:9 - "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."


So, at least we know that Shady is an absolute monster of a human being. That's nice.

 

[WelshBloke]

I can still covet my neighbors arse though right?

She's pretty hot.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Which is ironic when you consider that being part of a religion is claiming that your beliefs are the one true way and that every one else is wrong regardless of proof.

How can you make that claim about all pople who are part of a religion? That is just plain stupid if that is what you believe!

 

[WelshBloke]

How can you make that claim about all pople who are part of a religion? That is just plain stupid if that is what you believe!

?
Christians believe that Christianity is correct yes? That's what makes them Christians.

Same thing with Muslims, Hindus, etc.

If you don't believe in the religion then your not part of it.

Seems fairly self evident.

 

[Victorian Gray]

How can you make that claim about all pople who are part of a religion? That is just plain stupid if that is what you believe!

Out of curiosity, what religion do you follow?

 

[MajinCry]

?
Christians believe that Christianity is correct yes? That's what makes them Christians.

Same thing with Muslims, Hindus, etc.

If you don't believe in the religion then your not part of it.

Seems fairly self evident.

It's bizarre how much the, uh, non-committal religious lads cling to the label.

 

[WelshBloke]

It's bizarre how much the, uh, non-committal religious lads cling to the label.

I was genuinely confused by his reply to my post and was hoping that he'd clarify his point there.

But then I remembered who the poster was.

 

[shady28]

Rather than give a yes/no answer, which would quickly ascertain your character, you instead decide to wiggle your way out of giving an answer. How quaint.

But I shall indulge you.

Interesting given I gave you an answer. I also gave you an example, but it's apparent you're a closed-minded religion hater who is just trolling and not really looking for any answers or even a reasoned debate. Else it flew entirely over your head.

Either way I'd say you aren't worth speaking to. Welcome to my rather short ignore list. I'm sure Jhhnn will keep you company there.

 

[MajinCry]

Interesting given I gave you an answer. I also gave you an example, but it's apparent you're a closed-minded religion hater who is just trolling and not really looking for any answers or even a reasoned debate. Else it flew entirely over your head.

Either way I'd say you aren't worth speaking to. Welcome to my rather short ignore list. I'm sure Jhhnn will keep you company there.

I took you to task over your out-of-context verse quotations, as well as quoting, and then responding to, your insane proposition that people who give false testimony should be put to death.

Rather than think that I'm giving genuine response to your dishonesty and immoral opinions, you instead think I'm trolling?

Please.

And not looking for answers or even a reasoned debate? If that were true, I'd have accused you of trolling and then added you to my ignore list.

The whole damn point of a forum is for discussion. You take issue with what I say? Please, I implore you, give a genuine response so that we may come to a conclusion and/or better ourselfes.

But no, you just come to spout both dishonesty (lying about the commandments and what they say) as well as immorality (thinking the commandments are good, and that false testimony should be punishable by death), and promptly put your fingers in your ears and block out those who disagree with you.

Fucking hell.

 

[Omar F1]

Poetic, but vacuous. For example: "Add to that our modern reach to the outer space rims or sending the probes to the other planets in our solar system to only find such a huge and vacant space."

No, we already Knew there was vast and empty spaces, thanks to Science and Mathematics. We learned many other things though, by taking those trips. We also understand how the planets move in relation to each other, thanks to Science and Mathematics.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is an ancient sentiment first expressed by the Greek philosopher Plato. Meaning, that it is a Subjective perception of the Viewer, it is not an Objective truth handed down to us. We see beauty, but what may be Beautiful to one may not be Beautiful to another. This is no more a Proof of a Creator Being than the taste of bacon or the scent of a Rose is.

You know, that is exactly my problem with scientific advancements .

We just keep discovering things and create physics laws for something that was already there since the age of earth itself (with changes, of course), then we call that world a god-less place and attribute that discovery to our bright minds.

I mean, we ain't inventing anything outside of what is available around us. We're merely outlining the equations on how to utilize available recourses and deal with such nature.
I know it's much more complicated than that, but isn't it part of the truth?


Whereas for beauty, whenever you reach a high status of self-satisfaction about your life and the surrounding then yes, you might discover how beautiful everything around you is.
Of course, I'm talking about nature and living beings, not the human's creation. Those ugly freak-faced creatures does only exist in the movies, right out of our vast imagination.


I guess it's a hard to debate subject. Soft evidence is debatable and subject to different interpretation.
However, I still cling to my idea regard the necessity to trace our claims from 1400 & 2000 years ago, in case they were really seeking the truth about this life creation. It might be worthwhile beside their hard digging into the deep history seeking such knowledge.

At least, I hope we gained a slight insight into the other side thinking, despite whether being partly right or completely wrong either way.
Tolerance wouldn't be achieved without getting to hear the other side of argument, and trust me, I do keep gaining more of it. So, thanks everyone.

 

[disappoint]

Maybe then we'll actually find a "God" - a being more supreme than us.

Though I doubt we'll like it if we do.

It might decide to do the universe a favor and obliterate the troublesome, out of touch with reality, delusional, violent dimwits that are so sure of themselves they decided not to learn anything new because 1 book written 2000 years ago by iron age peasants that didn't even know the Earth orbited the Sun has all the answers they will ever need.

Or teach them how to overcome that problem. Let's hope it's the latter or there'd be no hope for us.

But most likely they'd just keep their distance. Would you go trying to educate ISIS in the error of their ways? I don't think these sureclowns have any idea just how dangerous their line of thinking is to their children. Yeah I just made up a word. That's just how I roll sometimes.

 

[disappoint]

Jesus will speak to you. He is alive and wants us to go to Heaven.

I hear they have some nice treatments for auditory hallucinations these days. You can even record and replay where I heard that from though.

 

[bshole]

Thanks for the summary and refreshing my memory.
I remember exactly the three first points being taught at school, it's fair and sound theory.
However, the fourth point is where most of the controversy lies.

In short, here are some main objections that is in my mind right now:

* The human was created as a human in the first place, not a descendant of Apes and did not pass through a natural evolution/selection process.
* If the evolution process has started exactly as it's currently believed to, then it was rather intentional and well guided process by the creator of both that basic cell and the earth it reproduced itself on.


Anyway, let's not forget that each and every one of us is an evolution process in himself, I guess.
Starting from the moment of engagement between a male & female and ending by death.

Then how do you explain ring species?

A ring species is a situation in which two populations which do not interbreed are living in the same region and connected by a geographic ring of populations that can interbreed. Ring species provide important evidence of evolution in that they illustrate what happens over time as populations genetically diverge, and are special because they represent in living populations what normally happens over time between long deceased ancestor populations and living populations, in which the intermediates have become extinct. Richard Dawkins observes that ring species "are only showing us in the spatial dimension something that must always happen in the time dimension."

This objective data demonstrating the fact that your objection is observed in extant species in the world today. You can literally trace the evolutionary line through the existing species.

 

[FelixDeCat]

The only universal law is do unto others as you wish done to you. Requires no God.

All of the other nonsense in the "Ten Commandments" makes you nothing more than a Slave Of Fear.

I hope your ears bleed.

The 10 C's are there for a reason. They spell out absolute limits to personal behavior which is reiterated by most secular laws, but divine punishment also awaits those who thieve and murder.

 

[MajinCry]

I can understand you wanting to adhere to one law that "requires no God"; but would you say then that if someone kills your wife and takes your personal belongings its ok to then murder another and take their things as well?

The 10 C's are there for a reason. They spell out absolute limits to personal behavior which is reiterated by most secular laws, but divine punishment also awaits those who thieve and murder.

Uh, no it doesn't.

You just gonna ignore the commandments I posted, that command slavery and slaughter?

The OT is filled with rape, with slavery, with slaughter, with sex slavery, etc. You really, REALLY should read the other commandments.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I can understand you wanting to adhere to one law that "requires no God"; but would you say then that if someone kills your wife and takes your personal belongings its ok to then murder another and take their things as well?

Are you stupid?

The commandment is "do unto others what you would have them do unto you."

It isn't "do unto others what they have already done to you."

 

[sandorski]

You know, that is exactly my problem with scientific advancements .

We just keep discovering things and create physics laws for something that was already there since the age of earth itself (with changes, of course), then we call that world a god-less place and attribute that discovery to our bright minds.

I mean, we ain't inventing anything outside of what is available around us. We're merely outlining the equations on how to utilize available recourses and deal with such nature.
I know it's much more complicated than that, but isn't it part of the truth?...


...

That's bad/unimpressive because?

It's almost as if you are blind to what is right in front of your eyes. The car you use to move you places quickly, planes that fly overhead, the variety of food at your grocery store, the medicine you or people around you use to prolong their lives, the Internet we are using right now, the electricity that flows through your walls, and countless other things we use daily are all the result of these discoveries made by Science. Yet you are more impressed by claims of wonders written in ancient books.

There are wonders all around you and not one of them are the result of the actions of god(s). Forgive me for saying this, but your arguments for god(s) are silly. You may as well be arguing for the existence of Superman.