The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[Omar F1]

Gonna ignore the rest of your ego-babble, but this? That right there is inherently bollocks.

Remember that verse which stated that Yahweh controls each and every one of us?

He didn't give us free minds at all; according to the book, we're just his automatons.

Ego about what, it's just a quite different perspective than yours.

And nope, you're wrong.

Holy scriptures could be tricky to unimaginable extent. It's just like that.
We're given our minds, the most precious grace ever given, to be responsible and be held accountable for our actions.

In life, yes we're both driven and have choices to be made. This is a hard fact as it could get.
We never chose at which age to be born, in which place or family, poor or middle-class, in good health or bad one (generally speaking) - do you see how much any of those out-of-our-hands circumstances could greatly affect our destiny? that's what we call the destiny which been chosen for us by the God, and that's exactly what meant by Yahwa. However, we have choices to be made all the time in every each single day of our life - that's what we may be held accountable for.

 

[sandorski]

You didn't get my point at all, in fact you didn't even think about it for a second.


We've been utilizing both natural resources and our mind-abilities to advance in every category out there, since the beginning of our human race.

Our minds, which is proven the most critical part of our species - while everyone else clearly lacked such sophistication - is proof enough for me that we were guided intentionally to become what we're right now. And those natural resources weren't founded arbitrary either by Mother Nature, they did exist for a reason.

That huge crude-oil reserve lying under the Arabian Peninsula, it was right under our feet for the whole time.
Normally, it's considered just another human discovery, while in fact we believe it's another one of the God's graces given to his elected human race to be discovered in the right time.

"It is He Who has made the sea subject, that ye may eat thereof flesh that is fresh and tender, and that ye may extract therefrom ornaments to wear; and thou seest the ships therein that plough the waves, that ye may seek (thus) of the bounty of Allah and that ye may be grateful."

Uranium is another example. It was there perhaps for the whole known history of humans, waiting to be discovered and utilized in the right age.
Now you would attribute those technological advancements out of Uranium and give credit only to some brilliant scientists, but the question begs though; why we have such unlimited scope of thinking while everyone else was kept at bay and got severely crippled in his way of thinking - absolutely no trace of intentional guidance, of course.
Beside developing their normal habits of finding food, shelter, surviving other predators and getting accustomed to their own environment circumstances; when was the last time an animal had invented something useful?

Of course, I'm in no way denying human scientists their credit - in fact I always call for them to be recognized, their efforts acknowledged and thanked pretty well for the countless hours spent behind their achievements.
And I know for sure that Accuray's Cyberknife machine, which helped saving countless of desperate lives, did not fall right from above.


He gave us our free minds - much more of a responsibility than convenience - in order to work it hard and be different from all the other animals surrounding us.

Again, somewhat poetic, but silly arguments. Yes, Oil, Uranium, Iron, whatever was/is in various places and they are all very useful to us. So what? You are just inserting a god as an explanation into areas you find mysterious. Just like the Ancients would have done regarding Lightning, Earthquakes, or other natural phenomena they didn't understand.

 

[WelshBloke]

But one of my argument points was that we shouldn't run quickly into conclusions, that's all what I'm asking for.

You seem happy to run quickly to the conclusion that it was all put there by god even though, as you said, only one person has ever seen him.

 

[Paratus]

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

But one of my argument points was that we shouldn't run quickly into conclusions, that's all what I'm asking for.

Scientists develop fantastic modern technologies and medicines... "Oh, how wonderful! Isn't science amazing?!?!"

The same scientists, using the same methods, discover that organisms are related through common anscestry... "Wait just a minute, let's not jump to conclusions..."

 

[MajinCry]

Ego about what, it's just a quite different perspective than yours.

And nope, you're wrong.

Holy scriptures could be tricky to unimaginable extent. It's just like that.
We're given our minds, the most precious grace ever given, to be responsible and be held accountable for our actions.

In life, yes we're both driven and have choices to be made. This is a hard fact as it could get.
We never chose at which age to be born, in which place or family, poor or middle-class, in good health or bad one (generally speaking) - do you see how much any of those out-of-our-hands circumstances could greatly affect our destiny? that's what we call the destiny which been chosen for us by the God, and that's exactly what meant by Yahwa. However, we have choices to be made all the time in every each single day of our life - that's what we may be held accountable for.

You're just going to ignore the verse, huh?

 

[MagickMan]

This would be a great place to substantiate that curious assertion.

There's nothing curious about it, you can't prove the nonexistence of a deity with logic.

Um... there's nothing wrong with my English. What do YOU think is wrong?

Nothing... if you're 3' tall and live in a swamp on Dagobah. :\

 

[JD50]

There's nothing curious about it, you can't prove the nonexistence of a deity with logic.

Except he already did.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

There's nothing curious about it, you can't prove the nonexistence of a deity with logic.

Wrong. I can prove the non-existence of certain deities, but I can't prove the non-existence of every deity. I never claimed the latter, but my proof certainly accomplished the former.

Nothing... if you're 3' tall and live in a swamp on Dagobah. :\

I ask again: which error of English do you think I've committed?

 

[bshole]

Ego about what, it's just a quite different perspective than yours.

And nope, you're wrong.

Holy scriptures could be tricky to unimaginable extent. It's just like that.
We're given our minds, the most precious grace ever given, to be responsible and be held accountable for our actions.

In life, yes we're both driven and have choices to be made. This is a hard fact as it could get.
We never chose at which age to be born, in which place or family, poor or middle-class, in good health or bad one (generally speaking) - do you see how much any of those out-of-our-hands circumstances could greatly affect our destiny? that's what we call the destiny which been chosen for us by the God, and that's exactly what meant by Yahwa. However, we have choices to be made all the time in every each single day of our life - that's what we may be held accountable for.

What I do not understand is why the BIGGEST predictor in America of whether one will go to prison is religious faith. An agnostic/athiest's chance of entering the prison system are FAR LESS than 1/500th (about 1/3000 I believe) that of someone with religious faith. Can you explain this?

 

[Moonbeam]

What I do not understand is why the BIGGEST predictor in America of whether one will go to prison is religious faith. An agnostic/athiest's chance of entering the prison system are FAR LESS than 1/500th (about 1/3000 I believe) that of someone with religious faith. Can you explain this?

Religion, the purpose of which is to free people from mechanicality, generally having its origins in an enlightened, mechanically free individual, or a school run by individuals who are free, within no time at all becomes a mechanical institution.

Christianity, for example, the purpose of which is to free the self from the concept of evil by the introduction of the concept of divine forgiveness, quickly becomes q machine that controls people by the use of the fear of evil. Instead of freeing the souls of people from the burden of guilt they add to that guilt by making people feel evil. Once people feel evil they hate the self they were told is evil and divide from it by creating a new shiny good ego. Once the true self becomes despised and the door to happiness is closed, the only way back is to realize that one feels like a sinner. We create what we fear. Those who suppress the notion that they are evil do evil as a way to try to get back to the truth of themselves. We become what we hate to punish ourselves and to feel how worthless we feel, even though the feeling we have that we are worthless is a lie.

This is why it is vitally important that a person acquire self understanding so that he does not have to create what he fears and can deal with it psychotherapeutically.

 

[bshole]

Religion, the purpose of which is to free people from mechanicality, generally having its origins in an enlightened, mechanically free individual, or a school run by individuals who are free, within no time at all becomes a mechanical institution.

Christianity, for example, the purpose of which is to free the self from the concept of evil by the introduction of the concept of divine forgiveness, quickly becomes q machine that controls people by the use of the fear of evil. Instead of freeing the souls of people from the burden of guilt they add to that guilt by making people feel evil. Once people feel evil they hate the self they were told is evil and divide from it by creating a new shiny good ego. Once the true self becomes despised and the door to happiness is closed, the only way back is to realize that one feels like a sinner. We create what we fear. Those who suppress the notion that they are evil do evil as a way to try to get back to the truth of themselves. We become what we hate to punish ourselves and to feel how worthless we feel, even though the feeling we have that we are worthless is a lie.

This is why it is vitally important that a person acquire self understanding so that he does not have to create what he fears and can deal with it psychotherapeutically.

um.... riiiigghhhttt.....

Can somebody translate that for me?

 

[BxgJ]

um.... riiiigghhhttt.....

Can somebody translate that for me?

Google translate doesn't seem to have a moonbeam setting, and I don't have the time at the moment to do it manually.

 

[soulcougher73]

um.... riiiigghhhttt.....

Can somebody translate that for me?

Stop hating yourself?

 

[shira]

um.... riiiigghhhttt.....

Can somebody translate that for me?

This is not your fault.

As usual, Moonbeam isn't able to express his thoughts clearly. I'm not saying that his actual ideas are bad; only that his expression of them is extremely bad. Ironically, Moonbeam's posts generally are a kind of microcosm of what he says about religion in this specific post, as I'll explain.

To say in clear terms what Moonbeam is TRYING to say:

Religions start out good, as a way of helping people to get past bad feelings about themselves and the world around them. But then religions evolve to become part of the problem, by adding additional causes for people to feel bad about themselves and the world.

The bad feelings become so bad that people create a sort of false self to avoid confronting the self they've been induced to despise. But this strategy ultimately fails because people "act out" the suppressed bad feelings in an unconscious attempt to punish themselves.

But in fact people aren't THAT bad; but they believe the false things religions tell them.

Now, that irony I referred to above is that many people assume that there's something wrong with them when they can't understand what Moonbeam writes. They think they're stupid. They think they're lacking in depth. So in effect, in trying to help people (which I genuinely believe is Moonbeam's intention), Moonbeam actually makes many of them feel worse about themselves.

But Moonbeam insists he can't possibly express his ideas more clearly. I agree: MOONBEAM can't express his ideas more clearly. That's a statement about Moonbeam's own limitations, not about his ideas.

 

[Moonbeam]

Religions start out good, as a way of helping people to get past bad feelings about themselves and the world around them. But then religions evolve to become part of the problem, by adding additional causes for people to feel bad about themselves and the world.

The bad feelings become so bad that people create a sort of false self to avoid confronting the self they've been induced to despise. But this strategy ultimately fails because people "act out" the suppressed bad feelings in an unconscious attempt to punish themselves.

But in fact people aren't THAT bad; but they believe the false things religions tell them.

Oh my God, but that's just so much psychobabble. How could religions start out good? Religions are a pile of shit. What's all this crap about bad feelings. I don't feel bad about myself. I am just so cool. How can something evolve and wind up worse than it started? Bad feelings become so bad people create a false self. Hahahahahahahahahaha. Amazing, where is there even a slight proof of that? As for the rest of that sentence, it's pure psychobabble extreme. I have never heard such nonsense. Can you please offer proof of one thing you said.

There is understanding what I said and there is openness to believing it. There is always the Moonbeam is cryptic and speaks in riddles. There is never the can you explain what you mean by this or this.

I hope that your effort to decipher what I said has taken you to an understanding of why a religion of philosophy that teaches morality under threat will find its followers making up a large percentage of folk convicted of crimes. It is the nature of the mentally ill to wind up in jail. The trick is to know what the nature and cure of their illness is.

 

[Moonbeam]

um.... riiiigghhhttt.....

Can somebody translate that for me?

Can somebody translate this for me. I would ask bshole, but I would prefer to insult him by suggesting there's nothing to his question by flapping my hands in the air in a state of self induced confusion.

 

[shira]

I think I'll continue translating (indented, in italics), for the benefit of others.

Oh my God, but that's just so much psychobabble. How could religions start out good? Religions are a pile of shit. What's all this crap about bad feelings. I don't feel bad about myself. I am just so cool. How can something evolve and wind up worse than it started? Bad feelings become so bad people create a false self. Hahahahahahahahahaha. Amazing, where is there even a slight proof of that? As for the rest of that sentence, it's pure psychobabble extreme. I have never heard such nonsense. Can you please offer proof of one thing you said.

(After removing sarcasm.) This accurately describes what happens to people psychologically under the influence of religion. Yes, religions started out with the best intentions. Religions are run by people with the best intentions. But religions end up being bad.

(In the voice of a typical, self-hating person): I fool myself into thinking I feel good about myself, when in fact - deep down - I feel I'm not cool at all. My instinct is to just refuse to confront the truth of the matter, that I try so hard to hide from myself that what people see has nothing to do with the real me. I believe it; it all rings true. ​

There is understanding what I said and there is openness to believing it. There is always the Moonbeam is cryptic and speaks in riddles. There is never the can you explain what you mean by this or this.

Shira has accurately explained what I wrote, but that's not the same thing as allowing yourself to believe what I wrote. People always accuse me of saying things in an indirect manner, of using language that's more of a puzzle than a clear statement of fact. But no one ever asks me to clarify what I meant by specific things I say.​

I hope that your effort to decipher what I said has taken you to an understanding of why a religion of philosophy that teaches morality under threat will find its followers making up a large percentage of folk convicted of crimes. It is the nature of the mentally ill to wind up in jail. The trick is to know what the nature and cure of their illness is.

I hope, Shira, that in working to understand my meaning you're now able to see that any religion that threatens people with eternal damnation if they don't behave properly will end up attracting the very worst of people, most of them mentally ill. The real solution to getting people to behave better isn't threats of hell and/or jail time. No, the real solution is to first understand that people act badly because this is their only way of coping with the deep-down belief that - as religions have taught them - they're vile, hateful, disgusting human beings; and then to instead teach them the actual truth: that every person has a beautiful, innocent child inside who yearns to be good.​

You see, Moonbeam, there's no reason to be cryptic. There's nothing essentially abstract or difficult about your message. Your ideas don't need to be spun into puzzles, to force people to wrestle with them, to induce them to accept what you claim is true.

 

[shira]

Can somebody translate this for me. I would ask bshole, but I would prefer to insult him by suggesting there's nothing to his question by flapping my hands in the air in a state of self induced confusion.

Translation: (After removing sarcasm) I think this "translation" of my words business is absurd. If people can't make the effort to figure out for themselves what I'm saying, then I have no respect for them.​

 

[MagickMan]

Except he already did.

No, he didn't. *sigh*

 

[MagickMan]

Wrong. I can prove the non-existence of certain deities, but I can't prove the non-existence of every deity. I never claimed the latter, but my proof certainly accomplished the former.

I'm sure that you think it does, but that doesn't mean much. :\

I ask again: which error of English do you think I've committed?

Ask yourself this question, you should. Mmm...

 

[JD50]

No, he didn't. *sigh*

Why is his proof wrong? Magic is not an acceptable counter.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I'm sure that you think it does, but that doesn't mean much. :\

Well for all your bluff and bluster you haven't shown any fault in the reasoning. It is quite a case study in the frustration of arrogance by ignorance, all your flailing and angry floundering.

Ask yourself this question, you should. Mmm...

I don't need to. My sentence was grammatically correct. This seems to be another case of you imagining problems where none exist.

Why do you do that? Is it the embarrassment?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Why is his proof wrong? Magic is not an acceptable counter.

Logic can't prove that an absurd God-concept cannot be instantiated in reality because reasons.

That's where he's at now, after a few silly detours through "4D space," "relativistic quantum mechanics," and "a priori reasoning is bad because human perception is imperfect."

 

[MajinCry]

Logic can't prove that an absurd God-concept cannot be instantiated in reality because reasons.

That's where he's at now, after a few silly detours through "4D space," "relativistic quantum mechanics," and "a priori reasoning is bad because human perception is imperfect."

All the guy's got is a superiority complex. His posts, particularly the ones that attempt to undermine you through spelling/grammar/whatever has got his knickers in a twist...They're just inane.

I'm rather impressed that you've not been driven irate by him.