The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[WelshBloke]

M: No, he knew he was right and he went immediately to his friend and told him he had figured out everything. What he worked on later was the mathematics that proved he was right.

Ummm, it's the mathematics that are the important bit. It's the bit that makes it useful.

M: No I can see you're asleep. That is why I said, "You are blocked in your search, or lack thereof" by assumptions you happily accept. You do not feel your need. But you will notice, I hope, that you butt into conversations with notions like magic. Your disinterest is not what you think. You have unconscious motivations and are not neutral at all.

Sorry for butting in, I thought that was the point of this board.

You're assuming that I have a search in the first place. Nope. Not looking for any spiritual answers, quite happy with the ones I've got thanks (or with the tools that they provide to find the answers).

My interest here is about people and their ways of thinking rather than the metaphysical.

 

[Moonbeam]

WelshBloke: Ummm, it's the mathematics that are the important bit. It's the bit that makes it useful.

M: No, the joy is in the insight and the elegance that math can provide. Usefulness is an incidental, perk.

WB: Sorry for butting in, I thought that was the point of this board.

M: Not a problem. I butt in explaining why.

WB: You're assuming that I have a search in the first place. Nope. Not looking for any spiritual answers, quite happy with the ones I've got thanks (or with the tools that they provide to find the answers).

M: Already said I knew that.

WB: My interest here is about people and their ways of thinking rather than the metaphysical.

M: Yes, unfortunately for you. People are irrational beings, crippled by self hate.

 

[WelshBloke]

M: No, the joy is in the insight and the elegance that math can provide. Usefulness is an incidental, perk.

There's probably some pure mathematicians that appreciate the maths for what it is but the usefulness as a tool is what made it extraordinary.

M: Yes, unfortunately for you. People are irrational beings, crippled by self hate.

People, their thinking, and why they do things are incredibly interesting.

 

[shira]

I have told my story here so many times I am sick of it.

Really? Then provide a link to a post where you told your story. I'll be happy to read it.

 

[MagickMan]

Oh boy. The "YOU'RE a BIGGER poophead" comeback. How original. I hope you didn't hurt yourself coming up with that one.

No, I said you're an ignorant wise and beautiful woman, sold on your own brand of sophistry, there's a difference.

I admit, I don't understand what's so "fun" for you about simultaneously destroying your own dignity and credibility, but hey I know masochism is a thing. Get down wit'cher bad self.

Concern over my dignity and credibility is touching, especially coming from a self-important twit who has never had either. Are you one of Moonie's relatives? The amount of confidence you have in your mental failures sounds vaguely familiar. :hmm:

But that's just false. Reductio ad absurdum can demonstrate the non-existence of an alleged god whose definition is inconsistent or incoherent. That's precisely how my argument works. I can equally confidently say that any god who is alleged to make circles have corners does not exist, or that any god which allegedly knows the largest prime number does not exist. Inconsistent or incoherent ideas cannot be instantiated in reality.

You really don't get it, do you?

I get that you're mighty impressed with your basic knowledge of elementary logic, but the "largest prime number" is a red herring, because such theoretical numbers have no bearing on physical/temporal constants. It goes along with that old chestnut, "can God make a boulder so big that even he can't lift it?" No, because the physical universe itself is finite. You can do better. :\

That's hilarious. :awe:

You're hilarious(ly boring).

Just another stellar response from you. I'm sure everybody is really impressed.

Well he is. *shrug*

 

[Moonbeam]

Really? Then provide a link to a post where you told your story. I'll be happy to read it.

I said or did or tried to do two things in my last post, to tell you that my story is not important, that your story is, that my story would do little to help you, that you would analyze it in your ingrained, full of unconscious assumptions way, but because I am soft and stupid and hate to deny you your wishes, I repeated the essentials of my story to you anyway.

I had an experience that changed me in every imaginable way, that instantly ended my suffering. It consisted in some ways of an integration, a collapse of paradox via the arrival of a higher conscious state. One minute terrible suffering and the next minute grace. I could say it was a moment in which thought ended and my real self appeared. I could say that good and evil disappeared. I could say any number of things. What I can't do is cause you to experience what I experienced because the experience requires the experience of just that altered state.

I suffered because my assumptions about what reality must be like to be happy we're fundamentally flawed. I wanted to find a way to prove God exists and that all that we suffer in life will be compensated for via God's love,that we would be saved. My attempt to do that logically destroyed my faith. I failed and that failure killed me. I lost everything that sustained my ego. I had no defense against the reality that the world is indifferent to human suffering. What I learned from Zen was that there was talk of folk who believed exactly as I do, that there is no God, but they were very far from misery, that in fact they were quite loving and wise. This was my very first hint that there might be something fundamentally wrong with my view.

I mentioned that I am not nor have ever been a practitioner of Zen, but that my exposure to it saved me. When I looked up koan on google and went to that link, and read what was there yesterday, because you say I talk crazy, I can tell you I could have written what was there, so I linked it. You are a thinker and I used to be. Thought is a prison. I discovered this is so because something in Zen called to me. How could these so called Zen Masters say the shit that they did. What was that fucking strawberry. I had a driving passion and need.

I got mine. I am here just in case somebody else may feel the same need like a disturbingly uncomfortable pea somewhere under the 39th matters of their sleep. In the Christian faith tha Satori experience is called Grace. The Sufis call it, what, fana and baqa. I can't give it to you. I simply tell you that for me there is an experience one can have that changes everything and for the better.

Understand that I know this by the fact of my being. I bridged a gap that can't be unabridged. I say that I have no interest in anything you have including your worship, your recognition of my superiority, how spiritually advanced I an, your thanks, your humiliation, or any thing else that derived form having an ego. I had to die to win and because I died, all that died too.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I get that you're mighty impressed with your basic knowledge of elementary logic, but the "largest prime number" is a red herring...

No, it isn't. You just don't understand its relevance. The idea of the largest prime number is inconsistent like I've shown that the idea of omnipotence is inconsistent. If either of those ideas are part of your idea of God, then we can confidently state that your idea of God cannot be instantiated in reality.

...because such theoretical numbers have no bearing on physical/temporal constants.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. I get the feeling that you're still laboring under the false idea that I've claimed to have proven that no ideas of God are coherent or possible.

It goes along with that old chestnut, "can God make a boulder so big that even he can't lift it?"

Nonsense, my proof does not suffer from the inconsistency inherent in that question.

No, because the physical universe itself is finite.

1.) The problem with the impossibly heavy rock question has nothing to do with the physical universe.

2.) There is no evidence that the physical universe is "finite." I'd be happy to disabuse you of that notion while I'm teaching you about a priori reasoning.

You can do better. :\

How would you know? You still think the conclusions of a priori arguments depend on some condition of physical reality.

 

[soulcougher73]

First of all, I hope you do realize that it's Evolution theory vs. God existence. So lets not portray that theory as innocent-scientifically-driven one because it isn't. Whether its defendants like it or not, it's clearly motivated by atheism agenda.
That's obvious why it avoid all the common sense around, which undermine or else conflict with that theory conclusions.


Although, as it's already been established & pretty obvious, that I'm being ignorant about the specific details or DNA basics, however, I'm aware of its basic assumptions, overall concept and its conclusions drawn by the researchers, which is my main concern.

LOL.

 

[shira]

I said or did or tried to do two things in my last post, to tell you that my story is not important, that your story is, that my story would do little to help you, that you would analyze it in your ingrained, full of unconscious assumptions way, but because I am soft and stupid and hate to deny you your wishes, I repeated the essentials of my story to you anyway.

I had an experience that changed me in every imaginable way, that instantly ended my suffering. It consisted in some ways of an integration, a collapse of paradox via the arrival of a higher conscious state. One minute terrible suffering and the next minute grace. I could say it was a moment in which thought ended and my real self appeared. I could say that good and evil disappeared. I could say any number of things. What I can't do is cause you to experience what I experienced because the experience requires the experience of just that altered state.

I suffered because my assumptions about what reality must be like to be happy we're fundamentally flawed. I wanted to find a way to prove God exists and that all that we suffer in life will be compensated for via God's love,that we would be saved. My attempt to do that logically destroyed my faith. I failed and that failure killed me. I lost everything that sustained my ego. I had no defense against the reality that the world is indifferent to human suffering. What I learned from Zen was that there was talk of folk who believed exactly as I do, that there is no God, but they were very far from misery, that in fact they were quite loving and wise. This was my very first hint that there might be something fundamentally wrong with my view.

I mentioned that I am not nor have ever been a practitioner of Zen, but that my exposure to it saved me. When I looked up koan on google and went to that link, and read what was there yesterday, because you say I talk crazy, I can tell you I could have written what was there, so I linked it. You are a thinker and I used to be. Thought is a prison. I discovered this is so because something in Zen called to me. How could these so called Zen Masters say the shit that they did. What was that fucking strawberry. I had a driving passion and need.

I got mine. I am here just in case somebody else may feel the same need like a disturbingly uncomfortable pea somewhere under the 39th matters of their sleep. In the Christian faith tha Satori experience is called Grace. The Sufis call it, what, fana and baqa. I can't give it to you. I simply tell you that for me there is an experience one can have that changes everything and for the better.

Understand that I know this by the fact of my being. I bridged a gap that can't be unabridged. I say that I have no interest in anything you have including your worship, your recognition of my superiority, how spiritually advanced I an, your thanks, your humiliation, or any thing else that derived form having an ego. I had to die to win and because I died, all that died too.

See what I've bolded above. We agree.

But beyond that, you seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm in a state of unhappiness or suffering or misery or something else unpleasant. I'm not.

So if "you've got yours," great. Guess what? I've got mine.

By the way, I didn't say you "talk crazy." What I said was that you refuse to provide concrete examples of your own life; that you always play the mystic.

Yet, in another thread, you wrote about your blueberry plants. So why do you find it so difficult to write about specific life experiences?

What do you do for a living? Do you have children? What sort of books do you read? What do you do for fun?

Or are you in principle opposed to being a real human being?

 

[JEDIYoda]

one word -- faith!!

 

[realibrad]

one word -- faith!!

The Hamas has faith that killing Jews will get them into heaven. I suppose their faith is the wrong kind though right?

 

[Moonbeam]

shira: See what I've bolded above. We agree.

But beyond that, you seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm in a state of unhappiness or suffering or misery or something else unpleasant. I'm not.

M: No, you are operating under the assumption that you are not. I know because I used to be you. I went through an experience that caused me to see in the dark, your dark and the dark that used to be mine. I told you the pea was under the 39th mattress. You med to be a special snowflake princess to feel it. You can never be sure when and where the monsters of the Id will break through.

s: So if "you've got yours," great. Guess what? I've got mine.

M: I told you I got mine to indicate I feel no need, especially any need to compete. For the ego that hasn't died everything is a competition. And now you tell me that you've got yours. Hehehehehe

s: By the way, I didn't say you "talk crazy." What I said was that you refuse to provide concrete examples of your own life; that you always play the mystic.

M: If mystics aren't crazy then who is?

s: Yet, in another thread, you wrote about your blueberry plants. So why do you find it so difficult to write about specific life experiences?

M: You have no idea how sad it makes me, how lonely I am as a result of not being able to share in these things but because it is better for you that I don't, I abstain. The more conscious a person is, the greater the load they must carry. Every stick has two ends, and if I take the better end you will not have it.

s: What do you do for a living? Do you have children? What sort of books do you read? What do you do for fun?

I am a mirror and if I write who I am on the mirror you will see me and not yourself. Furthermore, you will put the me that you see in a box on a shelf. You do not know how you are, but I know now how I used to be. I labeled the world with all of my unconscious assumptions. I have known all of this from long before I posted here. And besides all of that, I am a nobody. Some tell me I am even less and some say more. Split the difference at a nobody.

s: Or are you in principle opposed to being a real human being?

M; I do not share your assumptions as to what it means to be real.

 

[Moonbeam]

The Hamas has faith that killing Jews will get them into heaven. I suppose their faith is the wrong kind though right?

I'm giving two to one odds that railibrad hates the kind of faith that allows somebody to kill other people, say his girlfriend, but if I asked why he'd say no, it's just a matter of utility. "Ah shit, you murdered my girlfriend. Prepare for a lecture on why other societies will out-evolve yours."

 

[Zorkorist]

You're starting to find some friends, Moonbeam.

Good for you!

-John

 

[Moonbeam]

You're starting to find some friends, Moonbeam.

Good for you!

-John

Do you see what I mean, shira?

 

[Zorkorist]

Embrace your liberalism. You're not crazy, just liberal.

-John

 

[JEDIYoda]

The Hamas has faith that killing Jews will get them into heaven. I suppose their faith is the wrong kind though right?

Is that suppose to be an example of what you think faith is? or are you just blowing more smoke out your ass?

 

[Moonbeam]

Is that suppose to be an example of what you think faith is? or are you just blowing more smoke out your ass?

I don't see how he could have any opinion of faith whatsoever since he says he doesn't have any.

 

[soulcougher73]

Is that suppose to be an example of what you think faith is? or are you just blowing more smoke out your ass?

That is 100% an example of faith. They have no proof it will get them to heaven, but they believe it will. You really dont know what faith is as a theist? That is really sad.

 

[shira]

S: But beyond that, you seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm in a state of unhappiness or suffering or misery or something else unpleasant. I'm not.

M: No, you are operating under the assumption that you are not.

So I tell you I'm happy, but you tell me my feelings of happiness aren't real because I'm fooling myself into believing I'm happy.

Hmmm. This Zen-like philosophy of yours appears to have some elements in common with evangelical Christians, who insist that the meaningfulness I experience in my life can't possibly be legitimate because (they assert) true meaning is possible only if one believes in God.

But your rejection of people's positive feelings is even more profound than that, as it implies that everyone must learn to question their happiness and mire themselves in misery as they engage in an endless search for their potentially false assumptions.

I've learned so much from you. I was relieved that my blueberry bush merely survived this year, and I would have been overjoyed if it had produced even a small number of mediocre berries. But now I know that that joy would have been false, because only someone who can eat strawberries is justified in feeling joy.

 

[Moonbeam]

So I tell you I'm happy, but you tell me my feelings of happiness aren't real because I'm fooling myself into believing I'm happy.

Hmmm. This Zen-like philosophy of yours appears to have some elements in common with evangelical Christians, who insist that the meaningfulness I experience in my life can't possibly be legitimate because (they assert) true meaning is possible only if one believes in God.

But your rejection of people's positive feelings is even more profound than that, as it implies that everyone must learn to question their happiness and mire themselves in misery as they engage in an endless search for their potentially false assumptions.

I've learned so much from you. I was relieved that my blueberry bush merely survived this year, and I would have been overjoyed if it had produced even a small number of mediocre berries. But now I know that that joy would have been false, because only someone who can eat strawberries is justified in feeling joy.

These are your assumptions about what you take it to mean that you are operating under the assumption that you are happy. No matter where your thinking takes you it will be based on assumptions you do not see. I have only suggested there is a possible experience that shatters that pattern and that can set your mind free. I know that my suggesting such a thing makes you grumpy. I remember very distinctly how I reacted to that notion when it first was suggested to me in a book. I threw that fucker across the room. I have a very bad temper and am full of rage. Hehehehehe

 

[JEDIYoda]

That is 100% an example of faith. They have no proof it will get them to heaven, but they believe it will. You really dont know what faith is as a theist?
You are trying to say that faith has only one meaning yet -- the scriptures say that - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. -- For by Grace are ye saved through faith!

But this discussion is a waste since you try to poison the discussion with convoluted examples.... Have a nice day!!

 

[shira]

These are your assumptions about what you take it to mean that you are operating under the assumption that you are happy. No matter where your thinking takes you it will be based on assumptions you do not see. I have only suggested there is a possible experience that shatters that pattern and that can set your mind free. I know that my suggesting such a thing makes you grumpy. I remember very distinctly how I reacted to that notion when it first was suggested to me in a book. I threw that fucker across the room. I have a very bad temper and am full of rage. Hehehehehe

You want to insist that what a person feels isn't actually what they feel. So if someone feels happy, you insist they're not actually feeling happy. If they feel sad, you insist that they're not actually feeling sad.

Twist that all you want; deny it all you want; use new words and pretend you're saying something different, more special. But the fact is that's exactly what you're saying. Actually, I don't care about any twists or denials or alternate phrasings you seek to make. I'm not going to read them, so don't bother trying.

I believe everything is in the eye of the beholder. When someone tells me they think something is beautiful, it would be absurd for me to tell them they aren't perceiving beauty. If someone tells me they don't like chocolate, it would be absurd of me to tell them they're wrong. More than absurd; it would telling them that they're insane, and that I know this because I know better than they do whether they actually think something is beautiful or actually dislike the taste of chocolate.

I have no reason to disbelieve it when people report what they're feeling or seeing. But you, clearly, think you know more about what a particular person is feeling than they do themselves and you don't hesitate to tell them so, as if that somehow makes you their spiritual guide to higher ground. But in fact your beliefs about what you think you know about others and your self-appointed role as their guide merely expose your arrogance.

Yeah, yeah, the wind against the house, the death and rebirth, the Koan and the all of the other amazing experiences that are impossible to express except through evasive language. Okay, you're a Zen-master arrogant prick. Better?

Clearly you disagree, and clearly I disagree with any possible phrasing of your disagreement. We're not speaking the same language and it's pointless to continue this discussion.

---

Edit: Something just occurred to me that might be worth asking you.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason you can't allow yourself to be vulnerable to posts is that you're that close to sinking back into the pain?

 

[sandorski]

That is 100% an example of faith. They have no proof it will get them to heaven, but they believe it will. You really dont know what faith is as a theist?
You are trying to say that faith has only one meaning yet -- the scriptures say that - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. -- For by Grace are ye saved through faith!

But this discussion is a waste since you try to poison the discussion with convoluted examples.... Have a nice day!!

What that biblical passage says is exactly what he said. The problem is that your usage is using Circular Reasoning. So when we say, "Show us Evidence of what you have Faith in" you read the Bible, it says that Faith is Evidence, except it is not.

Faith is Evidence of having Faith, it is not Evidence that what one has Faith in is real or warranted. So, are Suicide Bombers' Faith in virgins after death mean that they have received their virgins? According to your logic and argument, it most certainly does.

 

[realibrad]

I'm giving two to one odds that railibrad hates the kind of faith that allows somebody to kill other people, say his girlfriend, but if I asked why he'd say no, it's just a matter of utility. "Ah shit, you murdered my girlfriend. Prepare for a lecture on why other societies will out-evolve yours."

You misunderstand utility I think. Utility can mean the ability to produce shoes or happiness. A comedy show produces utility in the form of comedic pleasure. My girlfriend produces utility in the net gain of love we feel for each other. No need for a lecture, just that simple point.