The GTX 780, 770, 760 ti Thread *First review leaked $700+?*

[24601]

I don't think 660SLI coming close to Titan is an unreasonable statement - consider that Titan is roughly 15% short of the 690. With that in mind, 660 SLI can certainly come close. Now, Titan differentiates itself by being a far better card for surround and high resolutions due to the greater VRAM buffer, and being a single card solution without the added heat and noise of SLI.

OTOH, obviously, some feel that SLI has pitfalls but I've actually been really impressed with it - take for instance, frametime graphs of SLI configurations being awfully, awfully close to single cards as anecdotal evidence. Nvidia spent a lot of time implementing frame metering in the Kepler series and it shows, I've actually gotten quite fond of SLI over the past 8 months or so of using it. Because it works, it's smooth, and it's reliable. I won't bother you with linking graphs to frametimes but SLI is really really good in the smoothness department, it's almost the same as a single card with nvidia's frame pacing. That isn't to say that single cards will be better for some users, but SLI works very well.

Additionally, while scaling does vary from game to game, SLI more often than not scales very well. I haven't played a game yet that doesn't benefit greatly from it. So....I don't think 660ti coming close to titan is unreasonable at all in terms of raw performance, but you will have severe performance dropoffs at high resolutions and surround. In those cases Titan will be better.

Yes, games that are 70%+ deferred rendering are going to scale well in SLI when not vram or memory bandwidth limited.

The main problem is the games on PC that will not be deferred rendering for the majority of them for a while, such as most MMOs (What most people have PC rigs for)

I do not disagree about the assessment with the caveats listed in the first line of this post.

 

[willomz]

I think you misread, I was just using the 660 Ti as a common point of reference between the two graphs to check that it was fair to compare across the graphs.

You can see the 660 Ti SLI outperforms the Titan, so it makes sense that while 660 SLI doesn't beat the Titan, it comes VERY VERY close.

 

[24601]

I think you misread, I was just using the 660 Ti as a common point of reference between the two graphs to check that it was fair to compare across the graphs.

You can see the 660 Ti SLI outperforms the Titan, so it makes sense that while 660 SLI doesn't beat the Titan, it comes VERY VERY close.

660 ----- 960 shaders
660 Ti -- 1344 shaders

1344 / 960 = 1.4

660 Ti is NOT close to a 660, this isn't 670 vs 680

40% more shaders = a BIG difference.

But again I reiterate, I do not disagree with the scaling percent in 70%+ deferred rendering games.

I merely want to point out that the scaling basically begins and ends with those kinds of games.

 

[willomz]

Depends if it is shader bound or not.

 

[blackened23]

The main problem is the games on PC that will not be deferred rendering for the majority of them for a while, such as most MMOs (What most people have PC rigs for)

I like AAA games on the PC, believe it or not - MMOs are so so worn out And I can't think of one that is demanding. Of course game preferences are completely subjective, though.

 

[willomz]

There are very many games where the 660 is barely behind the 660 Ti because they both have the same memory bandwidth and the same number of ROPs. The 660 also has a higher clockspeed.

In some games (Shogun 2) the 660 Ti can put down that extra shader power, in others it can't:

 

[24601]

There are very many games where the 660 is barely behind the 660 Ti because they both have the same memory bandwidth and the same number of ROPs. The 660 also has a higher clockspeed.

In some games (Shogun 2) the 660 Ti can put down that extra shader power, in others it can't:

The problem is that the examples you showed before were definitely shader bound, which is why the 660 Ti SLI was able to get close/better to the Titan.

You can only have one or the other, you can't have both

 

[24601]

I like AAA games on the PC, believe it or not - MMOs are so so worn out And I can't think of one that is demanding. Of course game preferences are completely subjective, though.

For most of them it's not that they aren't demanding, its more that they are CPU bottle-necked very quickly, therefore usually you don't need more than a 7850 or a 660 before a 4.5 GHz 3570k is bottle-necking performance.

The lack of AMD competition in the CPU space is very annoying for MMO, RTS, and true open world development.

 

[willomz]

The problem is that the examples you showed before were definitely shader bound, which is why the 660 Ti SLI was able to get close/better to the Titan.

You can only have one or the other, you can't have both

660 Ti SLI actually beats the Titan in most major titles, it doesn't merely come close.

Interestingly the Titan has exactly double the shaders, double the texture units, double the ROPs and double the bus width of the 660 Ti. So actually it is a bit of a puzzle why the 660 Ti SLI wins, as surely there should be some downsides to SLI.

Perhaps the issue is that the Titan cooler doesn't provide double the heat dissipation of the 660 Ti cooler.

 

[blackened23]

660 Ti SLI actually beats the Titan in most major titles, it doesn't merely come close.

Interestingly the Titan has exactly double the shaders, double the texture units, double the ROPs and double the bus width of the 660 Ti. So actually it is a bit of a puzzle why the 660 Ti SLI wins, as surely there should be some downsides to SLI.

Perhaps the issue is that the Titan cooler doesn't provide double the heat dissipation of the 660 Ti cooler.

If you're not playing to the intended audience or strengths of the Titan, sure. Keep in mind that Titan was designed for a very specific niche: multi monitor and high resolution gaming. Obviously a card with 6GB VRAM currently won't be for the masses.

 

[24601]

660 Ti SLI actually beats the Titan in most major titles, it doesn't merely come close.

Interestingly the Titan has exactly double the shaders, double the texture units, double the ROPs and double the bus width of the 660 Ti. So actually it is a bit of a puzzle why the 660 Ti SLI wins, as surely there should be some downsides to SLI.

Perhaps the issue is that the Titan cooler doesn't provide double the heat dissipation of the 660 Ti cooler.

We're basically arguing in circles as we aren't disagreeing with each other in regards to deferred rendering games, so I'll stop this now .

The differences are felt in games that aren't 70%+ deferred rendering though.

 

[willomz]

I'm genuinely puzzled though, why doesn't the Titan win?

It has exactly the same number of shaders, texture units and ROPs, but surely having a 384 bit bus should beat 2 cards with 192 bit buses? And that's assuming 100% scaling which never happens.

I can't see a single advantage that 660 Ti SLI based on hardware, so why does it win by 10% on Crysis 3? Is it drivers? Are the Nvidia drivers better optimised for the older cards?

 

[BallaTheFeared]

http://alienbabeltech.com/main/gtx-660-sli-vs-gtx-680-vs-hd-7970-ghz-value-performance-evaluation/

I could see if Poppin would do this with Titan/GHz, but I think he's going to be busy with new card evaluations. :ninja:

 

[24601]

http://alienbabeltech.com/main/gtx-660-sli-vs-gtx-680-vs-hd-7970-ghz-value-performance-evaluation/

I could see if Poppin would do this with Titan/GHz, but I think he's going to be busy with new card evaluations. :ninja:

This list makes me mourn forward rendering's demise due to console demands and CPU bottlenecks.

I must be the only person that doesn't like deferred rendering here o.o;;

 

[willomz]

LOL some nice scaling there..

138% on Battleforge 8xAA
112% on F1 2012

 

[24601]

I'm genuinely puzzled though, why doesn't the Titan win?

It has exactly the same number of shaders, texture units and ROPs, but surely having a 384 bit bus should beat 2 cards with 192 bit buses? And that's assuming 100% scaling which never happens.

I can't see a single advantage that 660 Ti SLI based on hardware, so why does it win by 10% on Crysis 3? Is it drivers? Are the Nvidia drivers better optimised for the older cards?

AMD and Nvidia have usually cheated harder in their main-stream segment cards than on their top end cards before, so that's a very real possibility.

That's probably why they always advertise higher increases with new drivers for their mainstream cards than for their top end ones.

On a tangent: I can't believe AMD ships drivers for the 7970 with "Surface Format Optimization" on as default in the drivers. Literally like the old days of 16-bit color to run UT:99 faster

 

[iMacmatician]

Interestingly the Titan has exactly double the shaders, double the texture units, double the ROPs and double the bus width of the 660 Ti. So actually it is a bit of a puzzle why the 660 Ti SLI wins, as surely there should be some downsides to SLI.

The 660 Ti is clocked 9% higher on the core (base), but on the other hand the memory bandwidths are equal….

 

[tviceman]

This page (actually starting around post #612) has been the most civil off topic discussion in this entire thread. It's actually quite informative/interesting too. I'm shocked. It's starting to make me wonder if going with a mid-range SLI next time around would be a better choice than a single ~$500 GPU. I've never SLI'd before, but the more I see it from a cost perspective.....

 

[willomz]

I think it's probably because we stuck purely to a Nvidia vs Nvidia comparison.

 

[MrK6]

660 Ti SLI actually beats the Titan in most major titles, it doesn't merely come close.

Interestingly the Titan has exactly double the shaders, double the texture units, double the ROPs and double the bus width of the 660 Ti. So actually it is a bit of a puzzle why the 660 Ti SLI wins, as surely there should be some downsides to SLI.

Perhaps the issue is that the Titan cooler doesn't provide double the heat dissipation of the 660 Ti cooler.

Clock speed advantage. It'll trump most specs until you start pushing the resolution.

 

[toyota]

3GB is perfect for 1080p gaming. Exactly why I bought my 7950 and I only paid $260.

Really crazy how Nvidia is now Apple. 2GB was plenty for gaming and 3GB wasn't needed.. Until Nvidia invented the 3GB card and now it's needed for gaming.

2gb is plenty for a single 680 and lower level of card at 1080. my card is about as fast as yours and I run out of gpu power long before vram is an issue. highest I have seen is 1790 in Crysis 3 but that was on unplayable very high with 8x MSAA settings anyway.

 

[toyota]

just about all synthetics have almost perfect SLI/Crossfire scaling and have hilariously low memory bandwidth and video ram requirements.

Use a real game please.

in real games 660 sli is almost on par with Titan and 660ti sli beats it overall.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Then your opinion on the current state of AMD drivers and performance is irrelevent because you simply have no experience with either. You can't claim "ATI" has worse drivers and performance while basing your opinion on old tech/software. Similarly if I were to claim Nvidia sucks because the GeForce FX is crap in DX9 I would expect my opinion to be ridiculed.

Wrong I just pulled an amd 6870 out of one of my pc's and replaced it with a gtx 680 so I am familiar with current drivers.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

yes

 

[ICDP]

Wrong I just pulled an amd 6870 out of one of my pc's and replaced it with a gtx 680 so I am familiar with current drivers.

How does your experience of a 2.5 year AMD card = current experience? You are proving my point here thanks. Likewise, I have access to a 460GTX (similar vintage to a 6870) and in no way shape or form does that give me a true reflection in current performance or drivers for Kepler. They are totally different architectures and can behave differently even with identical drivers.

For example my GTX460 did not suffer from the Kepler vsync bug that plagued my GTX680 for 4 months. I specifically tried it to find out if this bug was unique to Kepler (it was).

Shock horror, a current gen GPU is faster and has more driver support than a 2.5 year old GPU with a totally different architecture.