The Democratic Party Continues to Ignore Reality

[woolfe9998]

All that having been said, it's time for dems to stop eating their own. We're never going to agree on the outcome of a counter-factual scenario where a different candidate wins the primary.

Dems need to retool their messaging. The identity politics of the left should be toned down, while the message of economic populism should be amplified. Raising taxes on the rich, a nationally popular idea, should be a signature policy stance in 2020. As should any other policies meant to create jobs, improve real wages, and reduce the gap in income and wealth distribution. Highlighting that gap should be a major rhetorical strategy in 2020. Also campaign finance reform and appointing justices who will end Citizens United.

While I disagree with Moonbeam about many things, I do agree that Sanders messaging was better for last year's election cycle, even if it's unclear how he as a candidate would have fared when properly tested in the general election.

Either way, it's clear that dems agree far more than they disagree. 2020 is going to be more than just an typical presidential election. It's going to be about putting an end to a national tragedy. With Trump's false propaganda being persuasive to a solid chunk of the nation, we're going to need unity to accomplish this, and to have unity we need to look forward rather than obsess over the past which cannot be changed.

 

[soulcougher73]

Right, but you were never voting for Clinton from day 1. You not voting for Clinton really had nothing to do with Sanders.

I also live in KS So it didnt really matter what Dem i would vote for. Stupid EC. I was hoping to get Gary Johnson at least 5% for funding. That was my only reason i was at the polls to be honest. Get rid of EC and ill be at the polls every time.

 

[Bowfinger]

It's interesting that you attribute the outcome to Clinton supporters allegedly treating Sanders supporters poorly. I would first point out that Sanders' supporters made their own decisions about who to vote for in the general election. Clinton supporters did not make the decision for them. If Clinton was trying to reach out to them, and she was the candidate, why didn't they vote for her?

I'm also wondering if you can be more specific about this bashing of Sanders supporters. Are we talking about a few posters here on P&N or was this a big national phenomenon?

What I recall from this board was that each set of supporters criticized the other candidate. I also recall that the Clinton supporters criticized Sanders for advocating policies (e.g. free college for all) which were neither politically nor fiscally realistic, regardless of how desirable they may have been in the abstract, while the criticisms of Clinton labelled her as a corporatist who was in the pocket of Wall Street. In my view, the criticisms of Sanders were essentially correct, while the criticisms of Clinton were partly correct but often exaggerated or even shrill. I recall pointing out at least 3 times that Clinton had voted with Sanders 92% of the time in the Senate and being ignored by Sanders supporters every time. They just kept claiming that she was no better than Trump. or even worse than Trump. See many of Moonbeam's posts during that time as a prime example.

The bottom line is that however many Sanders supporters didn't vote for Clinton, it was because of the way they viewed Clinton herself. I highly doubt it had much to do with being bashed by Clinton supporters.

First, be clear that I attribute Trump's win to a whole host of factors. I made a long post about this some months ago. Alienated Sanders supporters was just one of many factors. Indeed, that's the point I've tried to make again and again. When Democrats fixate on finding one thing to blame for their loss, they're going to keep losing. I've raised this same point with those who claim Trump won due to racism, or that he won due to sexism, or that he won due to Comey, or ... Elections are way more complex than that.

As to your questions, I think I've already covered how people vote based on feelings rather than more rational criteria. As far as who bashed Sanders supporters, no, it was not just people here, though there were several of them. It was a common theme among some of the more devout Clinton fans. And I'm not talking about mere policy differences, but the personal attacks on 'Bernie bros", "concern trolls", and the usual assortment of generic personal attacks. Instead of being respectful of each other, the two camps often treated each other as enemies. Divide and conquer is a timeless strategy.

Finally, remember that it's not just about Sanders supporters who voted for Trump, or even those who voted third party. It's also very much about those who were fed up and stayed home. Clinton lost because she didn't get enough votes.

 

[dank69]

It's interesting that you attribute the outcome to Clinton supporters allegedly treating Sanders supporters poorly. I would first point out that Sanders' supporters made their own decisions about who to vote for in the general election. Clinton supporters did not make the decision for them. If Clinton was trying to reach out to them, and she was the candidate, why didn't they vote for her?

I'm also wondering if you can be more specific about this bashing of Sanders supporters. Are we talking about a few posters here on P&N or was this a big national phenomenon?

What I recall from this board was that each set of supporters criticized the other candidate. I also recall that the Clinton supporters criticized Sanders for advocating policies (e.g. free college for all) which were neither politically nor fiscally realistic, regardless of how desirable they may have been in the abstract, while the criticisms of Clinton labelled her as a corporatist who was in the pocket of Wall Street. In my view, the criticisms of Sanders were essentially correct, while the criticisms of Clinton were partly correct but often exaggerated or even shrill. I recall pointing out at least 3 times that Clinton had voted with Sanders 92% of the time in the Senate and being ignored by Sanders supporters every time. They just kept claiming that she was no better than Trump. or even worse than Trump. See many of Moonbeam's posts during that time as a prime example.

The bottom line is that however many Sanders supporters didn't vote for Clinton, it was because of the way they viewed Clinton herself. I highly doubt it had much to do with being bashed by Clinton supporters.

This is all spot on 100%.

People were NEVER going to vote for Clinton. They hated her and that was that. Their minds were made up and any attempt to show that the hate was based on lies just made them hate her more. This is a woman that has spent almost her entire adult life in public service, often for no personal gain. But OH MY GOD she got paid to make a speech undeniable proof she is a corporate whore. Apparently Democrats have to be 100% anti corporations or else we might as well vote for Trump.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I don't agree with it, but I understand the logic. If you agree that Democrats are unequivocally better than Republicans (I do), and you understand that our political system only gives you the choice of two candidates (I do), then criticizing the superior candidate is counterproductive.

So the proper thing to do is to throw your support behind the better party, and if that party can remain in power long enough, it will force the other party to move toward its views, and that in turn will force the party in power to move further in the direction of their base to maintain some philosophical distance. This is sort of orthodoxy for American politics, and I subscribed to it myself until fairly recently.

The election of Trump, a manifestly hateful, incompetent, and mentally ill man changed my outlook. I've been trying to understand how it happened and I can't make any sense of it in the context of the orthodoxy I described. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that a huge part of this country is so politically disengaged that they do not even care if a rapist who is transparently corrupt is the president. To me, that's a nation on life support.

I think one needs to understand that both parties have become more divisive over time. The Rep leadership could not care less about those who aren't affluent or "mom and apple pie" conformists. There is much hatred and suspicion of anything outside understanding such as Muslims.

Against the Dem equivalents we have a move away from inclusivity, a desire for opportunity and rights for all. It's not "all gods children", but marketed segments. That is how Hillary lost the states she needed. They were shown no consideration for real troubles they have and being disregarded cost her dearly. But of course that's not everything. Trump played the successful parasite and stole the Rep machine and used it against them. People wanted a voice and felt they were marginalized and taken for granted. Hillary's children aren't entitled because they are white but because of fabulous wealth and fame. People sitting at home who aren't minorities look at that and think "what is she smoking" when they are wondering if their children will find decent jobs. Don't start talking about history and institutional whatever to these folks. They look at their family and see little encouragement.

It would have been wonderful if Hillary could honestly come out and say something like "I don't care who you are. I don't care if you are the majority or a minority. You are all people with fears for the future. You want your children safe and not worry about the next months bills they can't meet regardless of how frugal they might be. We're all Americans and we all want and need real opportunities for every single person. We need to come together and forgive, to work towards the Great America some speak of, but it's not going to be easy. Platitudes won't do it. Saying that there's opportunity while there isn't except for the already wealthy and powerful and the ones they choose does not make it so.

We need to make our nation whole, not a nation of useless rhetorical nonsense posing as justice for all".

Well along those lines I think.

Unity, not division or else desperate people will make poor choices.

 

[soulcougher73]

This is all spot on 100%.

People were NEVER going to vote for Clinton. They hated her and that was that. Their minds were made up and any attempt to show that the hate was based on lies just made them hate her more. This is a woman that has spent almost her entire adult life in public service, often for no personal gain. But OH MY GOD she got paid to make a speech undeniable proof she is a corporate whore. Apparently Democrats have to be 100% anti corporations or else we might as well vote for Trump.

Then the Dems should have picked up on that she was a pretty hated politician and backed someone likable.

 

[dank69]

I think one needs to understand that both parties have become more divisive over time. The Rep leadership could not care less about those who aren't affluent or "mom and apple pie" conformists. There is much hatred and suspicion of anything outside understanding such as Muslims.

Against the Dem equivalents we have a move away from inclusivity, a desire for opportunity and rights for all. It's not "all gods children", but marketed segments. That is how Hillary lost the states she needed. They were shown no consideration for real troubles they have and being disregarded cost her dearly. But of course that's not everything. Trump played the successful parasite and stole the Rep machine and used it against them. People wanted a voice and felt they were marginalized and taken for granted. Hillary's children aren't entitled because they are white but because of fabulous wealth and fame. People sitting at home who aren't minorities look at that and think "what is she smoking" when they are wondering if their children will find decent jobs. Don't start talking about history and institutional whatever to these folks. They look at their family and see little encouragement.

It would have been wonderful if Hillary could honestly come out and say something like "I don't care who you are. I don't care if you are the majority or a minority. You are all people with fears for the future. You want your children safe and not worry about the next months bills they can't meet regardless of how frugal they might be. We're all Americans and we all want and need real opportunities for every single person. We need to come together and forgive, to work towards the Great America some speak of, but it's not going to be easy. Platitudes won't do it. Saying that there's opportunity while there isn't except for the already wealthy and powerful and the ones they choose does not make it so.

We need to make our nation whole, not a nation of useless rhetorical nonsense posing as justice for all".

Well along those lines I think.

Unity, not division or else desperate people will make poor choices.

Both sides the same, both sides the same. So what if the GOP is turning into white nationalism? The Democrats are equally at fault for not playing nice and coddling white nationalists. How dare they shame the white nationalists? Get the fuck out of here with this shit.

 

[snarfbot]

oh come on public service for no personal gain what the hell are you talking about dude

are you really of the opinion that the clintons have not profited from their political positions?

 

[Bowfinger]

Great. Democrats suck and GOP sucks infinitely worse, therefore don't vote for Dems because they suck. Enjoy choking on trickle-down economics until we're in the middle of the next Great Depression. I hope the Democrats get their asses fucking destroyed in the midterms and I hope we see a fucking Trump Dynasty for the next three decades.

Dude! I already said that not voting for Clinton was a self-destructive move by Sanders supporters. I'm not agreeing with it. I'm simply pointing out reality, and that it could have been avoided. Sometimes you must pick the lesser of two evils.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Both sides the same, both sides the same. So what if the GOP is turning into white nationalism? The Democrats are equally at fault for not playing nice and coddling white nationalists. How dare they shame the white nationalists? Get the fuck out of here with this shit.

Did I say the same? If I did I would be wrong. Would you find where I said that and I'll apologize. Also with supporting white nationalists. If you can find where I said that or anything like it was acceptable then I'll likewise recant those statements. Like Bowfinger I think the powers behind the Dems are more self serving than not, but the republican party has been morally and ethically bankrupt for decades and supporting intolerable policies. That's why I voted Dem everywhere but for President. I think it would be hard to provide a rational explanation if I thought the Dems were the same or worse. I certainly don't. Again, please find a basis for your statements and I'll be glad to address them.

 

[Gardener]

The flash point for this fight was Sanders deciding to back a democratic mayoral candidate in Omaha who is accused of being a pro-life democrat. Sanders argues for pragmatism, and a big tent. And I think Tom Perez has moved in that direction.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/23/politics/bernie-sanders-heath-mello/

It is absurd that Sanders should be accused of being a party purist when actually that label applies to his accusers.

 

[Jhhnn]

Not bitter at all. More sad and disappointed at the complete lack of understanding people, like those who think it's "their" fault exclusively, folks like you. You thought people would bow and take anything and so the most uninspiring person you could come up went ran. That is not our fault but it is your share of the responsibility. I know you can't understand this, but some will.

I believed my countrymen were smarter & more rational than what turned out to be the truth.

It's also quite remarkable how people go on about about Hillary being an unlikable candidate, even though she won the popular vote. Trump is Prez by dint of the Electoral College, not because he out-polled Clinton.

I suppose that's also a symptom of irrationality, as well.

 

[Jhhnn]

People don't vote for platforms. People don't turn out for platforms. Sad though it may be, most people vote based on feelings. When you spend months shitting on people, you hurt their feelings and you drive them away. YOU still refuse to recognize that.

Surely you can document the alleged shitting. Have at it.

 

[Guurn]

I didn't vote for either but the outcome in my state was decided long before the election. If you need proof of how corrupt both parties are right now you just have to ask yourself what position or positions your preferred party could take that would guarantee them a win.

Do it as an exercise. The reason they don't take those positions is because they aren't serving the general public, they are serving the people that write the checks.

 

[Blackjack200]

It's also quite remarkable how people go on about about Hillary being an unlikable candidate, even though she won the popular vote.

I mean, in one breath we're told that we should hold our noses and vote for Clinton (as I did), in the next we're told that her pop vote victory is evidence that she wasn't as unlikeable as people say.

Clinton made me cringe. Still does. The reason people voted for her was because she was running against Donald Trump.

 

[dank69]

Did I say the same? If I did I would be wrong. Would you find where I said that and I'll apologize. Also with supporting white nationalists. If you can find where I said that or anything like it was acceptable then I'll likewise recant those statements. Like Bowfinger I think the powers behind the Dems are more self serving than not, but the republican party has been morally and ethically bankrupt for decades and supporting intolerable policies. That's why I voted Dem everywhere but for President. I think it would be hard to provide a rational explanation if I thought the Dems were the same or worse. I certainly don't. Again, please find a basis for your statements and I'll be glad to address them.

Who me?

I think one needs to understand that both parties have become more divisive over time.

So sorry if I misunderstood your need to attribute some of the worst attributes of the GOP to the Dems.

 

[dank69]

Then the Dems should have picked up on that she was a pretty hated politician and backed someone likable.

No, you all should not be so gullible as to think that anyone the Democrats put up would not have been as universally hated by the time the election rolled around. You all should be able to read the charts that eskimo has posted numerous times that CLEARLY show Hillary's popularity is inversely proportional to how threatening she is to the GOP at the moment.

 

[ivwshane]

It's quite simple, the election was a binary election and that's not just some political talking point. Trumps momentum and appeal was so great and his incompetence, irrational behavior, and overall destructive policies were so bad that you either supported him or you didn't. If you didn't support him then the only reasonable option would be to ensure whoever the other most viable candidate was elected, period.

I don't care if it was Jeb Bush, Ted cruz, or Hillary, any of them would have received my vote if they were the only ones to beat trump. Those that doesn't vote for the viable alternative to trump deserve any blame that they get.

When trump actually starts getting policies passed and people literally start dying because of it, I will point out to those none Hillary voters that they are responsible for those deaths (along with trump and Republicans and their supporters), and I will say fuck you, you dumb ass snow flakes!

 

[dank69]

I didn't vote for either but the outcome in my state was decided long before the election. If you need proof of how corrupt both parties are right now you just have to ask yourself what position or positions your preferred party could take that would guarantee them a win.

Do it as an exercise. The reason they don't take those positions is because they aren't serving the general public, they are serving the people that write the checks.

Here is a fucking exercise for you:
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

 

[dank69]

It's quite simple, the election was a binary election and that's not just some political talking point. Trumps momentum and appeal was so great and his incompetence, irrational behavior, and overall destructive policies were so bad that you either supported him or you didn't. If you didn't support him then the only reasonable option would be to ensure whoever the other most viable candidate was elected, period.

I don't care if it was Jeb Bush, Ted cruz, or Hillary, any of them would have received my vote if they were the only ones to beat trump. Those that doesn't vote for the viable alternative to trump deserve any blame that they get.

When trump actually starts getting policies passed and people literally start dying because of it, I will point out to those none Hillary voters that they are responsible for those deaths (along with trump and Republicans and their supporters), and I will say fuck you, you dumb ass snow flakes!

I would have voted for Trump over Bush or Cruz. At least Trump is stupid enough to be honest about buttfucking the country.

 

[Jhhnn]

I mean, in one breath we're told that we should hold our noses and vote for Clinton (as I did), in the next we're told that her pop vote victory is evidence that she wasn't as unlikeable as people say.

Clinton made me cringe. Still does. The reason people voted for her was because she was running against Donald Trump.

She was quite popular before the Repub/Russian slime machine overwhelmed her.

We got trolled, hard. Some of us fell for it, some didn't. Some still defend their own mistake in ways more befitting to conservatives.

 

[Blackjack200]

I would have voted for Trump over Bush or Cruz. At least Trump is stupid enough to be honest about buttfucking the country.

I don't think Bush or Cruz would have started kicking people out of the country that have lived here for decades. That's enough for me to vote for them over Trump.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I believed my countrymen were smarter & more rational than what turned out to be the truth.

It's also quite remarkable how people go on about about Hillary being an unlikable candidate, even though she won the popular vote. Trump is Prez by dint of the Electoral College, not because he out-polled Clinton.

I suppose that's also a symptom of irrationality, as well.

I'm no longer surprised by the collective willingness to follow. Some people need to be led and there's not much for that.

Taking a break from our normal sparring, I'd ask you to think about the complete election scenario. Clinton won the popular vote over Trump, no dispute and if that were the only factor then we would agree, or at least more so.

First there is the fact that people do not only vote for candidates they want, they pick the lesser of evils as they see them. That meant some portion voted for each candidate because they felt they had to pick one but dislike the other more. It happens and I know you know that.

Then there are two other measurable factors, the lowest turnout in 20 years being one. If either candidate was inspiring on the whole then the turnout should have been larger, but it wasn't. The other thing is that both candidates were highly disfavored. You might argue that's entirely due to Republicans, but if she had a connection with the nation as a whole she could have overcome this or at least done much better. But likeable? That's hard to put into units, impossible. I submit that looking about comments from other than Trump supporters might be useful. Certainly Biden wasn't mind controlled by Trump, I wasn't, and there is a dearth of credible articles which praise her warmth and sincerity. That she was manipulative and controlling was more common, an Ice Princess.

Naturally some will disagree and that's fine but it would be hard to argue a genuine connectedness and inclusive attitude was pervasive in the campaign at an exterior, not personal, level.

Bowfinger had it right. People do not vote for platforms. Those are the responsibility if mere functionaries. A politician is a partisan who has navigated the perils and holds office. No qualities of leadership are required, but real leaders, those who people can look up to are exceedingly rare and we had none of those in the General. One does not win by beating others over the head and telling them how fucking stupid they are but by connecting with them to form a bond of trust.

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't think Bush or Cruz would have started kicking people out of the country that have lived here for decades. That's enough for me to vote for them over Trump.

They're still trickle down Republicans. If the income distribution of 1980 had been maintained, the stresses on working people would be much less & we'd be less susceptible to radicalism.

It's not like any of them intend to take it any way other than the wrong way.

 

[ivwshane]

I would have voted for Trump over Bush or Cruz. At least Trump is stupid enough to be honest about buttfucking the country.

Then you can't complain about people who didn't vote for Clinton.
Trump wasn't just bad because of his policies, irrational behavior, and overall lack of knowledge, he was/is is a bad choice because he has a cult like following who have no problems justifying anything he does and that's a recipe for disaster as seen throughout history.

So if you don't view trump in that light then you can't complain about others who saw Hillary as being just as bad or worse but felt that there wasn't any consequences to their actions.