The Democratic Party Continues to Ignore Reality

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,618
9,896
136
I'm glad you care about income inequality, it's an issue Democrats have been looking at for a while now.

I have a few questions for you.

First, you are asking of me personally while my current and future support towards that end is all but assured. We are trying to discuss how to reach more voters who are looking for economic answers but have not heard a compelling message. Who may have felt hope in 2008 but were let down by their deteriorating situation. Who may have hoped for Sander's movement and/or fallen for Trump's scapegoats but failed to connect with Hillary in November. There's a bipartisan cross section of Americans in dire straights just waiting to be inspired.

To me, this whole topic is to spur the idea that those voters are important for the future. That progressives already have a blueprint to reach them. It's not meant to be derailed by indignation or ego invested into the recovery. Introspection is not a referendum on which party is best. It's a plea to boldly champion policy and methods moving forward and the need to shape a message that people can believe in. That reaches out and touches them.

When trickle down kicks more people to the curb we need to be there to pick them back up. To unite towards victory.

True or false, income inequality did start to shrink under Obama?

False. I wouldn't know, so I looked it up.

True or false, under Republicans income inequality has widened?

True. It has widened under everyone for 40+ years. Trickle down will not stop until Basic Income is law.

Do you think income inequality is more likely to shrink or expand under Democrat policies? Do you think electing more Democrats so that they have accrual political power in Washington will allow them to improve income inequality or do you think electing more independents to weaken both dems and repubs power in Washington will improve things?

I find public discussion is currently for ineffectual policies. While Republicans are cheering on and placing more mud on an open wound, the Democrat's moderate platform is akin to putting a bandage over an infected wound. Yes you're better, want a cookie? Going to be a last supper unless we energize the base, unite the downtrodden, and push a national movement towards elections.

You want to rebuild the party and "take back" the country, unite the them behind solving an undeniable economic situation.

*word correction
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,438
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First, you are asking of me personally while my current and future support towards that end is all but assured. We are trying to discuss how to reach more voters who are looking for economic answers but have not heard a compelling message. Who may have felt hope in 2008 but were let down by their deteriorating situation. Who may have hoped for Sander's movement and/or fallen for Trump's scapegoats but failed to connect with Hillary in November. There's a bipartisan cross section of Americans in dire straights just waiting to be inspired.

To me, this whole topic is to spur the idea that those voters are important for the future. That progressives already have a blueprint to reach them. It's not meant to be derailed by indignation or ego invested into the recovery. Introspection is not a referendum on which party is best. It's a plea to boldly champion policy and methods moving forward and the need to shape a message that people can believe in. That reaches out and touches them.

When trickle down kicks more people to the curb we need to be there to pick them back up. To unite towards victory.



False. I wouldn't know, so I looked it up.



True. It has widened under everyone for 40+ years. Trickle down will not stop until Basic Income is law.



I find public discussion is currently for ineffectual polities. While Republicans are cheering on and placing more mud on an open wound, the Democrat's moderate platform is akin to putting a bandage over an infected wound. Yes you're better, want a cookie? Going to be a last supper unless we energize the base, unite the downtrodden, and push a national movement towards elections.

You want to rebuild the party and "take back" the country, unite the them behind solving an undeniable economic situation.

If you agree that Democrats are better for income inequality, and it looks like you do, then don't you think the discussion shouldn't always resort to "both sides are bad", and instead be, "dems are better but here is how they can improve"?

Now you may be asking why that would matter and I'll tell you why. You cannot build upon progress when you are forced to start at zero everytime things don't go perfectly. Therefore its better to build up Democrats and push for their evolution as opposed to say, starting with an independent/libertarian who has zero influence or foothold in government and hoping to create needed change.

That there, in a nut shell, is the problem I have with you and others who want change but refuse to let any existing party bring it. Say what you will about Hillary but we would be a whole lot closer to your goals had she been elected versus trump or any Republican. Instead we had an electorate (I feel it's a substantial size) vote for what they believe was someone new who they thought would bring about necessary change. It was foolish thinking and will most certainly result in taking two steps back and zero steps forward.

So I appreciate your willingness to reach/energize the voters, however I feel trying to break the system or start from scratch is a foolish and inefficient way of going about it. That's not how our government was designed and its not how change happens in this country. Its also why people like Bernie, who has consistently been on the right side of every issue, has had ZERO accomplishment and I'd dare to say, ZERO real world impact, in his 40 years in Washington.

Hate the game all you want but you aren't going to beat it.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,644
6,721
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If you agree that Democrats are better for income inequality, and it looks like you do, then don't you think the discussion shouldn't always resort to "both sides are bad", and instead be, "dems are better but here is how they can improve"?

Now you may be asking why that would matter and I'll tell you why. You cannot build upon progress when you are forced to start at zero everytime things don't go perfectly. Therefore its better to build up Democrats and push for their evolution as opposed to say, starting with an independent/libertarian who has zero influence or foothold in government and hoping to create needed change.

That there, in a nut shell, is the problem I have with you and others who want change but refuse to let any existing party bring it. Say what you will about Hillary but we would be a whole lot closer to your goals had she been elected versus trump or any Republican. Instead we had an electorate (I feel it's a substantial size) vote for what they believe was someone new who they thought would bring about necessary change. It was foolish thinking and will most certainly result in taking two steps back and zero steps forward.

So I appreciate your willingness to reach/energize the voters, however I feel trying to break the system or start from scratch is a foolish and inefficient way of going about it. That's not how our government was designed and its not how change happens in this country. Its also why people like Bernie, who has consistently been on the right side of every issue, has had ZERO accomplishment and I'd dare to say, ZERO real world impact, in his 40 years in Washington.

Hate the game all you want but you aren't going to beat it.

Why aren't we going to beat it? It's because you are afraid. You've been co-opted. You can't beat it means that democracy is dead. You are also doubtlessly economically comfortable as you watch the less fortunate being marched into the ovens. Talk about a self fucking attitude.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,637
136
Perhaps you can tell him what your explanation for economic insecurity and stagnant wages since the late seventies is due to. I think he believes the average American has been sold out for the benefit of corporations and the rich and Trump is going to fix it.
Well, I think you give an answer for the economic insecurity people feel. Wages have been stagnant for decades now. People are concerned that their kids will have things even worse off than their parents. I agree, we have been sold out for the benefit of the corporations. It is really just capitalism doing what capitalism does best. Capitalism is a great tool for advancing efficiencies. The problem is that as technology advances, the tendency of capitalism to aggregate wealth is exaggerated, and this needs to be counterbalanced by sliding our economy further to the left on the capitalism-socialism scale by providing more safeguards. As our productivity increases and the demand for labor decreases, we need to ensure that those being displaced by technology still maintain the purchasing power to maintain a good standard of living. Even more importantly, people need to feel confident that government represents them, not just the interests of the wealthy.

However, this doesn't sit well with those ideologically opposed to socialism. While they may be able to recognize the problem, their ego is dependent on their side providing the solution. Trump promised a revolution, to drain the swamp and return glory to America. In reality, he represents the manifestation of Senator Palpatine, trying to pretend he was from outside the system while he (and those like him) really owned the system, trying to burn things down not to restore power to the people, but to instead remove the safeguards in place within the system.

For those that had lost patience with the system, the right offered a revolution, the left didn't. The revolution offered by the right was disruptive, but ultimately destructive.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,438
16,851
136
Why aren't we going to beat it? It's because you are afraid. You've been co-opted. You can't beat it means that democracy is dead. You are also doubtlessly economically comfortable as you watch the less fortunate being marched into the ovens. Talk about a self fucking attitude.

Lol. You don't know shit about me so everytime you try to box me in I just have to laugh.
If it makes you feel better you can completely ignore me and do yourself a favor and simply read up on history, specifically US history with regards to political parties and economic policy.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,644
6,721
126
Well, I think you give an answer for the economic insecurity people feel. Wages have been stagnant for decades now. People are concerned that their kids will have things even worse off than their parents. I agree, we have been sold out for the benefit of the corporations. It is really just capitalism doing what capitalism does best. Capitalism is a great tool for advancing efficiencies. The problem is that as technology advances, the tendency of capitalism to aggregate wealth is exaggerated, and this needs to be counterbalanced by sliding our economy further to the left on the capitalism-socialism scale by providing more safeguards. As our productivity increases and the demand for labor decreases, we need to ensure that those being displaced by technology still maintain the purchasing power to maintain a good standard of living. Even more importantly, people need to feel confident that government represents them, not just the interests of the wealthy.

However, this doesn't sit well with those ideologically opposed to socialism. While they may be able to recognize the problem, their ego is dependent on their side providing the solution. Trump promised a revolution, to drain the swamp and return glory to America. In reality, he represents the manifestation of Senator Palpatine, trying to pretend he was from outside the system while he (and those like him) really owned the system, trying to burn things down not to restore power to the people, but to instead remove the safeguards in place within the system.

For those that had lost patience with the system, the right offered a revolution, the left didn't. The revolution offered by the right was disruptive, but ultimately destructive.
Of course. The left offered steady as we sink. The idea of steady improvement is a really great one if and only if you win elections. But the link I provided shows that inequality and campaign contributions to Democrats and Republicans go hand in hand.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,644
6,721
126
Lol. You don't know shit about me so everytime you try to box me in I just have to laugh.
If it makes you feel better you can completely ignore more and do yourself a favor and simply read up on history, specifically US history with regards to political parties and economic policy.
My boxes aren't made of concrete. I posted a link as to what this thread is about. What did you think of the what it said? Was I reading up OK or is your beef how I tragically misconstrued who you are? You went ape shit when I said democracy is dead and later defined the problem just as I did. Have campaign contributions to the democrats corrupted the party establishment and what is your answer to what the link said that they have? We are liberals, right? We reason things out. I'm all ears.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,438
16,851
136
My boxes aren't made of concrete. I posted a link as to what this thread is about. What did you think of the what it said? Was I reading up OK or is your beef how I tragically misconstrued who you are? You went ape shit when I said democracy is dead and later defined the problem just as I did. Have campaign contributions to the democrats corrupted the party establishment and what is your answer to what the link said that they have? We are liberals, right? We reason things out. I'm all ears.

On one hand you claim democracy is dead and on the other you are talking about electing new blood to evil against the establishment. If you don't see how those contradict each other then I can't help you.

As for your link, did you even read it?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,644
6,721
126
On one hand you claim democracy is dead and on the other you are talking about electing new blood to evil against the establishment. If you don't see how those contradict each other then I can't help you.

As for your link, did you even read it?
On one hand you claim democracy is dead and on the other you are talking about electing new blood to evil against the establishment. If you don't see how those contradict each other then I can't help you.

As for your link, did you even read it?
How many times have I said that if you are not involved with contradiction and paradox you aren't near any truth. A person who ceases to wait to be extracted from prison starts to plan his escape. People are in denial that the situation is hopeless and hope comes from hopelessness. It is your fundamental lack of understanding as to how the mind works that keeps you dreaming. What in the link do you think I am not considering, in your opinion? I read it with my eyes not yours.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,438
16,851
136
Our findings in this area suggest that the two political parties may have different incentives in cultivating wealthy donors. If Republicans promote policies – such as tax changes – that make their current donors immediately wealthier, they can expect a proportional increase in total donations. Democrats, on the other hand, stand to gain little by inflating the fortunes of their top donors, who will not usually boost their political giving when their wealth increases. But Democrats may gain by favoring the growth of sectors of the economy, including tech and entertainment, that are inclined to produce donors to Democrats.

Many observers claim that big campaign contributions from the wealthy must be linked to political favors. Such deals no doubt happen, but there is scant evidence to suggest that, overall, campaign contributions are driving the accumulation of wealth at the top of the U.S. economy.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,644
6,721
126
Rising Economic Inequality and Campaign Contributions from Very Wealthy Americans
Adam Bonica, Stanford University, Howard Rosenthal, New York University

Recent decades have seen an escalation in spending on U.S. election campaigns – during an era when economic inequalities have also sharply increased. With good reason, many observers believe these trends are closely related. Concern about the possible corrupting influence of money in politics crosses ideological lines. In the 2016 presidential primaries, insurgents in both parties highlighted such issues. In the Democratic contests, Senator Bernie Sanders drew a direct link between rising economic inequality and campaign contributions from billionaires. For his part, GOP contender Donald Trump, himself a billionaire, spoke candidly about his past use of campaign contributions to secure special treatment and favors from politicians. He stressed how readily politicians are swayed by contributions and decried the system as fundamentally corrupt. In a recent New York Times poll on campaign finance reform, citizens were near unanimous in their belief that money has too great an influence in politics. Across partisan lines, Americans are also unified in their belief in the need to fundamentally reform the system to limit the influence of wealthy donors.

In our research, we explore the relationship between wealth disparities and campaign contributions, documenting the growing concentration of campaign contributions among a small sliver of very wealthy U.S. donors. Despite an explosion in the number of citizens donating to campaigns in recent decades, we find that in recent decades the total share of campaign contributions has risen sharply from the wealthiest donors, the top 1% of the 1% of the voting age population. Mass participation has failed to counterbalance this trend.

Although recent changes to the legal and regulatory environment have contributed to the trend, they are at best a partial explanation. Contributions were becoming more concentrated long before the 2010 Citizens United and the 2014 McCutcheon cases were decided by the Supreme Court. To fully make sense of the rise of big money, its causes and consequences, we must examine broader economic trends and understand how the political behavior of the super rich has changed over time. Our research examines donation patterns of the super-rich – and explores their broader implications.

The Politics of the Super-Rich

Each year, Forbes magazine publishes a list of the 400 wealthiest Americans, and we have tracked political contributions from people appearing on these lists from 1982 to 2014. Interestingly, the Forbes 400 steadily trended to the left in their donation patterns over the past three decades. Why? This trend reflects in part a shift from a U.S. economy centered in manufacturing and extraction industries toward an economy where technology and information services are growing sources of wealth. Donors from Silicon Valley and Hollywood are generous to Democrats.

In theory, billionaires who give to Democrats face a tradeoff between policy preferences and economic interests. Liberal donors may support Democrats for their positions on environmental or social issues but might also expect to pay more in taxes if their contributions help to install more Democrats to office. At the level of particular individuals, these tradeoffs may very well be understood and accepted. In practice, however, our data show that the economic fortunes of the Forbes 400 have prospered under Democratic administrations.

Wealth growth for the super-rich Forbes 400 vastly outpaced overall economic growth during the Democratic presidential administrations of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. Between 1982 and 2014, the Forbes 400’s share of total U.S. wealth grew from 1.4 percent to 4.0 percent, with the entirety of the cumulative gains, and then some, occurring under Clinton and Obama. By contrast, the 400 did not even manage to tread water during the Republican administrations of Ronald Reagan and the two George Bushes, when their cumulative losses equaled -0.8 percent.

Wealth and Political Giving

If giving at the very top is not intuitively related to the partisanship of different presidential administrations, what drives the wealthy to donate? The amount the super rich give ends up being directly proportional to their increases in wealth. No matter how rich people are, their political giving patterns, like those of most other donors, are influenced by partisanship. But there’s a difference between how very well-off Democratic and Republican donors respond to changes in their wealth. Republican donors, on average, are much more sensitive than Democratic donors to ups and downs in their wealth.

Our findings in this area suggest that the two political parties may have different incentives in cultivating wealthy donors. If Republicans promote policies – such as tax changes – that make their current donors immediately wealthier, they can expect a proportional increase in total donations. Democrats, on the other hand, stand to gain little by inflating the fortunes of their top donors, who will not usually boost their political giving when their wealth increases. But Democrats may gain by favoring the growth of sectors of the economy, including tech and entertainment, that are inclined to produce donors to Democrats.

{{{{{{{Our findings in this area suggest that the two political parties may have different incentives in cultivating wealthy donors. If Republicans promote policies – such as tax changes – that make their current donors immediately wealthier, they can expect a proportional increase in total donations. Democrats, on the other hand, stand to gain little by inflating the fortunes of their top donors, who will not usually boost their political giving when their wealth increases. But Democrats may gain by favoring the growth of sectors of the economy, including tech and entertainment, that are inclined to produce donors to Democrats.}}}}}}}

Implications for Democratic Representation

{{{{{{{Many observers claim that big campaign contributions from the wealthy must be linked to political favors. Such deals no doubt happen, but there is scant evidence to suggest that, overall, campaign contributions are driving the accumulation of wealth at the top of the U.S. economy.}}}}}}}

Instead, big money operates in more subtle ways. The super-rich control resources that parties and politicians require and, as a result, are courted. Politicians have incentives to pay attention to the policy concerns that animate wealthy donors on left and right alike – and this dynamic influences public discussion and policymaking. The ideas, values, and preferences of wealthy donors distort the focus of U.S. democracy more than individuals’ desires to grow their already vast fortunes. Rather than worry about individual corruption, citizens and leaders should worry about the many ways money in politics can amplify the voices of the privileged few over those of the majority. As wealth concentration grows, so will uneven political influence.
====================================
The above is the link. {{{{{{{ }}}}}}} is the portion you quoted including what you bolded. The article was written to show the influence of money and it's correlation to the rise of economic inequality. The article didn't magically refute itself as you claim and implied I didn't comprehend in my reading of it. Instead, you simply failed to quote, not what wasn't claimed, but what is the claim, namely in the last part you left out, the real point that was being made:

Instead, big money operates in more subtle ways. The super-rich control resources that parties and politicians require and, as a result, are courted. Politicians have incentives to pay attention to the policy concerns that animate wealthy donors on left and right alike – and this dynamic influences public discussion and policymaking. The ideas, values, and preferences of wealthy donors distort the focus of U.S. democracy more than individuals’ desires to grow their already vast fortunes. Rather than worry about individual corruption, citizens and leaders should worry about the many ways money in politics can amplify the voices of the privileged few over those of the majority. As wealth concentration grows, so will uneven political influence.

If you read the article then I think you missed the point.
 
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