The curremt Israeli staregy is unsustainable.

[woolfe9999]

I admit the forum consensus seems to be that I am nuts.

Well, at least that's a start. Acknowledging that other people can see it is the beginning of the therapeutic process.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Who says that's going to happen? That will only happen if the Muslm countries change from the inside. If they do modernize, they probably won't be hell-bent on destroying Israel.

That would be a good thing. If Bush hadn't screwed the Iranian moderates over we might have had a reliable nation favorably disposed to the west. As it is now it's spilled milk. Perhaps in another twenty years we'll be back to where we should be now. In any event Israel most likely has between 60 and 200 deliverable warheads and perhaps as many as 400. If an invader intent on exterminating Israel ever materializes, that nation ornations soldiers will find that they have no home to return to. I don't think some people understand the hell that would result in attempting to take out Israel.

 

[shira]

From the word go I will state this is my MHO opinion and nothing more. As I will also state a certain admiration for the Jewish religions world history. As the Israeli rabbinical traditions has always favored culture and human knowledge. Maybe we can debate if the Israelis were the first religion to advocate monotheism or not, but we can certainly say every ancient civilization had their own religious beliefs to unite and justify their nationality idenity as nationhood hood jumped the shark from being small groups of hunter and gathers to actual larger classes called nations that can go on to being national and united regional powers. United by religion, able to become a regional military power to enforce their national religious will on others.

So right away an agnostic like me asks 3 questions. (1) Why should be religion be a universal organizing principle for ancient civilizations? (2) Why should, in least in Western history, should monotheism be a better principle than polytheism? (3) If we compare various multiple religions, how do we find the one single right religion among the other phonies?

But still I have to admire the Jewish religion, because almost unique among all other conquered small religions, the Jewish religion maintained its religious identity for at least 1800 years after Rome exiled the Jewish people from Israel. As the Jewish people became a small minority religion in almost every country on earth. While Jews had to face religious some alternating periods of alternating discrimination iand acceptance n almost every country they found themselves in. But still, truth be told, that Jewish minority somehow almost always led its host country in culture and learning.

So why should we have anti-antisemitism as a almost universal reaction for the past 1800 years of world history? A key question IMHO. Is it a question that Jews are indeed superior people and lesser people are envious, or it the fact the Jews refuse to assimilate with other cultures, as Jews consider themselves superior and divide the world into Jews and inferior gentiles and thus pissed off all gentiles? Somewhat of a chicken or egg question or maybe a self fufilling propesy.

But still, for the Jewish people, the whole antisemitism came to critical mass with the rise of Adolph Hitler who advocated the ultimate solution to the Jewish question could only be the complete extermination of all Jews on a hereditary basis. The fact that Hitler was a complete anti-antisemitism nut case was not unique in European history, the shocking fact, IMHO, was in the fact so many so called civilized European countries supported Hitler.

As the Jewish Holocaust became part of WW2 and a stain on humanity. But still in a WW2 that cost at least 50 million lives, why should we only blame only antisemitism that only accounted for 12% of all WW2 casualties?

But still as all the dust settled in WW2, the larger European people who supported Hitler faced a Jewish refugee crisis from millionions of penny less Jewish people that had somehow survived the Hitler extermination camps.

If there were was ever a set of people who could say to the world, you owe us justice, The Jewish refugees of Europe would be high up on that list in MHO. Because where to relocate Israeli refugees became problem one. Because giving Jewish refugees virgin land and devolopment money would have been the ideal way to establish a 100% Jewish State with no gentiles. Of course by the 20'th century, there was no depopulated habital land to be found. So to properly compensate the Jew's, the question is where to put them? As the Europeans that were almost 100% responsible for the WW2 Jewish holocaust adopted a brilliant plan to dump their Jewish refuges on Israel. Bot not only did all Arab nations cry NIMB, the former British mandate already populated by mainly Palestinian land owners, became the 1948 state of Israel.

Had the Israeli Jews in 1948 respected the land owned by Palestinians, IMHO, Israel would now be a respected mid-east State, but instead Israel choose the use the same tactics as Hitler to disenfranchise Palestinians who lived in the 1948 former Brisish mandate, who owned 2/3 of the land that became 1948 Israel. In effect punishing unarmed Palestinians for the sins of attacking Arab armies. By 1953, the Palestine ethnic cleansing was compete as it became illegal for a Palestinian to even own land in Israel. As the right of return is still a viable legal principle today. However, Israeli, still fearing stirring up more Arab State hatreds, allowed some Arab Nationals to retain land owning rights inside of Israel As 1948 State of Israel finally got rid of all its Palestiniansand became an all Jewish government.

But then we have to ask, who should be responsible for that set of Palestinians that formerly lived on the land that became 1948 Israel? Who were deprived of their land and human right's without any due process of law. As the Israeli Jews used the same tactics Hitler used on them to disentranchise Palestinians. With the one exception, Israelis felt no need to kill Palestinians after they had gotten rid of them.

But where the Palestinians went is after they were chased out of Israel was mainly to the West Bank and Gaza, both areas weakly held by either Joran or Egypt. And as other Arab nations at least fed and let the Palestinians own land, the 1967&73 Israeli wars brought the Israelis right back at the Palestinians throat, but this time Israel has no place to chase the Palestinians. But since the UN forbids land by conquest, Israel has no legitimate claim to the West Bank and Gaza, Israel remains in control of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jersalem 39 years later only because they are still allowed to run a miliary occupation.

In 1992, there was some hope, in a land for peace swap where the Palestinians could form a viable Palestinian State in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, but by 2012, Israel has snuck some 500,000 illegal Israeli immigrants onto disputed land. Meaning by now, the hope of a viable Palestinian State is about dead, as Israel now has a totally unsustainable long term survival strategy in the mid-east as Israel tries to outward extend its zone of control.

First, IMHO, its important to understand why the present Israel stance of having total military hegemony in the mid-east was effective before but can't work long term. First the odds are terrible, no more than 7 Israeli Jews Israel can rely on against a total Arab population of a hostile 280 million people Arab. Worse yet, the Arabs have massive oil money and Israel has little national resources to sell. Presidents like Eisenhower and Kennedy took a dim view of the Israeli theft of Palestinian lands, but still Nasser of Egypt and his threats to close the Suez canal made Israeli military might an asset to the US and the EU in keeping the Canal open in 1956 to 1958. As a result the French basically build Israel the nuclear weapons breeder reactor at Dismona. Later on, two US Presidents currently lowly regarded Prez's in LBJ and Nixon as very dull knifes in the drawer also aided and armed Israel to the teeth while engaging in a unwinnable military quagmire in Vietnam. At about the same time, Palestinian protests and attacks started that same unwinningable insurgency against Israel. Because Israel's 1948 land theft sins still haunt it on the eve of Israel 64'th birthday.

Lots of US water has gone under the dam since Nixon met his waterloo at watergate. As the USA has bled blood, treasure, and economic decline in two brand new quagmires in Afghanistan and Iraq. As the EU and most of US allies grow increasing disenchanted with US foreign policy, and now regard Israeli greed and stupidity as the greatest threat to world stability. As the past 10 years for Israel has been a total disaster to its international standing. In just the past two years
Israel has lost 30 years of diplomatic progress in inking treaties with Egypt, Jordan, and Tirkey. In the past 4 years Israel still faces international war crimes charges over its rape of Gaza, and in the past 7 years the Arab still remember the rape of Lebanon. While the events of the Arab spring still continue, as old line Arab Dictator after old line dictator topple, as younger Arab youth demand action and not mere words in terms of improving their economies.

But still, the Israel military dominance strategy demands that Israel military have more military power than all the Arab States combined. Which in the end can't work long term unless, in rising tides, all Arab boats sink, and only Israeli boats rise. Which is simply not happening as Turkish, Lebanese, and Egyptian boats are rising faster than Israeli boars, there will be growing debate about anyone's ability to keep Iranian boats from rising, and question will soon arise if its even wise for Uncle susker to keep only 7 million Jews propped up when (1) Uncle Sam's foreign policy foreign policy money cubbord is bare. (2) When its somewhat stiupid to alienate 280 million Arab with oil to support the questionable and unsustainable policies of Israel? An Israel that is now far more of a laibility than a US asset. In short, the USA and the EU tried the militarily dominate the mid-east strategy and now discover it only leads to unwinnable quagmires in what now amounts to a post colonial era.

Now the next question becomes, since the entire Israeli strategy is now invested in maintaning a unsustainable domiance of all its Arab neighbors, how can Israel avoid being pushed into the sea by all its Arab Neighbors who have a 64 year Israeli track record to inspire their hatreds of Israel.?

And their we can only have hope and wisdom from the South African experience. Israel has a huge amount of Engineering talent, pipelines and water desalification plants can make the entire semiarid mid-east bloom, and only mid-east regional cooperation can make a better life for all possible. I am an optimist, I see the glass half full and refilling, rather than see the glass half empty and better steal as much as you can before the glass is totally empty.

I stopped reading when I remembered that - at least twice in various threads on the Israeli / Palestinian situation - you informed us that the Israeli government is equivalent to the Nazis. That makes it difficult for me to extend to you the intellectual benefit-of-the-doubt that would allow me to take seriously anything else you write. So why bother reading?

Now, if you recanted that outrageous assertion . . . .

 

[Lemon law]

I stopped reading when I remembered that - at least twice in various threads on the Israeli / Palestinian situation - you informed us that the Israeli government is equivalent to the Nazis. That makes it difficult for me to extend to you the intellectual benefit-of-the-doubt that would allow me to take seriously anything else you write. So why bother reading?

Now, if you recanted that outrageous assertion . . . .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you were intellectually honest, Shira, you should be able to prove that the current Israeli iwas not and still the equivalent of the Nazi government in its treatment of Palestinians.

And instead you hyperspactically curl up into a tiny ball, crying lalala, without offering a intellectually honest rebuttal. Since you proclaim your case is such a slam dunk, you should easily be able to prove me wrong.

But then again, you are going to have a few unpleasant historical facts to deny that run counter to my American beliefs about universal human rights.

Are you a man or a mouse Shira, quit hiding behind Rush Limbaugh logic!

 

[woolfe9999]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you were intellectually honest, Shira, you should be able to prove that the current Israeli iwas not and still the equivalent of the Nazi government in its treatment of Palestinians.

And instead you hyperspactically curl up into a tiny ball, crying lalala, without offering a intellectually honest rebuttal. Since you proclaim your case is such a slam dunk, you should easily be able to prove me wrong.

But then again, you are going to have a few unpleasant historical facts to deny that run counter to my American beliefs about universal human rights.

Are you a man or a mouse Shira, quit hiding behind Rush Limbaugh logic!

OK I just have to jump in here. You've repeatedly made this ludicrous comparison, without detailed historical information to back it up. For example, numbers of people killed. Intent and motives behind the killings. Overall living conditions compared point for point. Now you want HIM to prove the negative. No, sorry, asswipe.

So, LL, tell us why the Israeli government is the equivalent of Nazi Germany. Tell us, with specific point by point comparisons that you have never given before. If you're struggling here, start by finding any of several generally recognized definitions of the word "genocide" and go from there. Then, and only then, will you have given something of substance that will be worth someone's time to rebut.

 

[JEDIYoda]

OK I just have to jump in here. You've repeatedly made this ludicrous comparison, without detailed historical information to back it up. For example, numbers of people killed. Intent and motives behind the killings. Overall living conditions compared point for point. Now you want HIM to prove the negative. No, sorry, asswipe.

So, LL, tell us why the Israeli government is the equivalent of Nazi Germany. Tell us, with specific point by point comparisons that you have never given before. If you're struggling here, start by finding any of several generally recognized definitions of the word "genocide" and go from there. Then, and only then, will you have given something of substance that will be worth someone's time to rebut.

Basically LL he is saying instead of making baseless accusations it is you who needs to step up to the plate and backup your allegations on a point by point basis.

The reason you tried to turn the tables on Shira and the reason you ignore others who have asked for the same thing is because you cannot make a point by point comparison......using the true meaning of the terminology that you flippantly carelessly throw around.....

Inquiring minds want to know…

 

[GuitarDaddy]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you were intellectually honest, Shira, you should be able to prove that the current Israeli iwas not and still the equivalent of the Nazi government in its treatment of Palestinians.

And instead you hyperspactically curl up into a tiny ball, crying lalala, without offering a intellectually honest rebuttal. Since you proclaim your case is such a slam dunk, you should easily be able to prove me wrong.

But then again, you are going to have a few unpleasant historical facts to deny that run counter to my American beliefs about universal human rights.

Are you a man or a mouse Shira, quit hiding behind Rush Limbaugh logic!

You can't be serious Comparing Isreali's to the Nazi's? Really
I'll play your stupid little game

Nazi's ran death camps where conservative estimates say over 2 million Jews, Russians and other Europeans were gased to death.

Current Isreali death camps, zero.

Over the course of the Nazi genocide of Jews they exterminated roughly 6 million people.

How many captive Palestinians have the Jews executed in non combat operations? A fraction of a percent of 6mil? Don't think so


Until you can show anything comparatively approaching those acts commited by the Nazi's replicated by the Isreali's your comparison is just garbage, and no further comparisons need to be addressed

 

[EagleKeeper]

LL believes that Nazi concentration camps are equivalent to the Gaza and other Palestinian refugee camps. Because people are contained and not free to travel.

Also, completely ignoring that those places have an economy and also were started by the brothers of those within those area. They were exiled by their own people, Arabs that did not want them in their countries.

People from Gaza are free to travel to Egypt as Egypt will allow.
People from the West Bank are allowed to travel to Jordan. Jordan has restrictions on such.

LL states that both of there are Israel's fault.

He fails at understanding history and also ME politics/issues. Excellent 20/20 hindsight and assign blame though.

 

[woolfe9999]

You can't be serious Comparing Isreali's to the Nazi's? Really
I'll play your stupid little game

Nazi's ran death camps where conservative estimates say over 2 million Jews, Russians and other Europeans were gased to death.

Current Isreali death camps, zero.

Over the course of the Nazi genocide of Jews they exterminated roughly 6 million people.

How many captive Palestinians have the Jews executed in non combat operations? A fraction of a percent of 6mil? Don't think so


Until you can show anything comparatively approaching those acts commited by the Nazi's replicated by the Isreali's your comparison is just garbage, and no further comparisons need to be addressed

You're forgetting about the ~5 million non-Jews also slaughtered putting the total at closer to 10-11 million. This does not include military deaths or civilian collateral deaths due to military attacks, which BTW most of the Pal deaths fall into either of those two categories. Comparing that to ~10,000 pals, over a much longer period of time, is a tough slope for him to mount.

And of course, unlike the Pals with their suicide bombings and rocket attacks, the Jews did not physically attack the Nazis, at least not until after millions of them had already been slaughtered and their choice was fight and die, or just die. Even then, their physical resistance was relatively minor in scope.

 

[woolfe9999]

LL believes that Nazi concentration camps are equivalent to the Gaza and other Palestinian refugee camps. Because people are contained and not free to travel.

Yes, I understand that this has been his argument. By that logic, American internment of the Japanese, which was far more confining BTW than the plight of the Pals, is also the equivalent of the Nazi Holocaust. Come to think of it, there is one group of people who has made that exact comparison - Holocaust deniers repeatedly claim that American internment of the Japanese is the equivalent of whatever they are willing to admit the Nazis did to the Jews. At least their logic is internally consistent, however, since they deny most of the killing took place. LL admits to the full scope of what the Nazis did to the Jews, but STILL tries to make this type of comparison. Frankly, if some degree of physical confinement alone, let alone any killing, makes this the equivalent of the Nazis, then how many other things in history should also be subject to that same equivalence?

I was looking for an argument of greater substance. However, I won't hold my breath.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I was looking for an argument of greater substance. However, I won't hold my breath.

good idea...don`t hold your breath.
LL is good at throwing around big words with no point by point corroborating evidence.....
such as GENOCIDE......
such as Nazi Concentration Camps....
To which he then adds the words -- historical facts.....lolollll

 

[EagleKeeper]

I was looking for an argument of greater substance. However, I won't hold my breath.

Good - no one wants to perform CPR on you for this.

 

[Lemon law]

Well, Guitar Daddy maintains, " Current Isreali death camps, zero." Is that really true? I hardly think so. After all, our great American patriot Nathan Hale, said we "give me liberty or give me death." If you don't call the Israeli holocaust of Palestinians to death camps in Gaza and the West Bank, a holocaust, the only differences between Israel and Nazi Germany is that fact the Germans killed Jews faster and Israel tortures them far longer while denying Palestinians human rights for a far longer period.

How do we compare the Nazi and Israeli holocausts fairly? After all Nazi Germany was a far larger nation than Israel, so should expect, on a proportional basis, the a Nazi Germany should be able to disenfranchise a far larger number of Jews. But still, since Nazi Germany, even then, was at least 10 times larger than Israel, which is the greater sin, Nazi Germany depriving 6 million Jews of their human rights and property, or 10X times 3.5 million Palestinians of their human rights and property? When we evaluate 35 million against 6 million, the picture changes. And if anything that 10X multiplier may be 10x too small when we add in the other European countries Nazi Germany added.
So maybe a truer comparison is 6 million v 350 million.

But at least the Nazi halocaust ended in 1945, the Israeli Halocaust against Palestinians and other surrounding countries is still ongoing today. As last year alone, Israel forced 1100 Palestinian families off their land in a process ongoing since 1948 and even before.
And even when Israeli courts say its illegal, Bozo Netanyuhu and co, disenfranchise them anyway. And when Israel courts rule Israeli settlements illegal, nothing is ever done after a dozen years.

In my mind, the same citizens against Nazi Germany and the current government of Israel applies, thieves can get away with anything, if people with better morals refuse to act.

 

[Abwx]

Zionism is the only surviving among the fascist ideologies that
were bornat the end of the XIXth century in Europe and whose rootsare on supremacists nationalisms whose most known ones
did prosper in Germany , Italy and Spain.

Indeed , israel has adopted the infamous German s Nuremberg s laws
as its "legal" base.

No surprise that the zionists were very appealed by the nazi ideology....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Zionism is the only surviving among the fascist ideologies that
were bornat the end of the XIXth century in Europe and whose rootsare on supremacists nationalisms whose most known ones
did prosper in Germany , Italy and Spain.

Indeed , israel has adopted the infamous German s Nuremberg s laws
as its "legal" base.

No surprise that the zionists were very appealed by the nazi ideology....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

Yeah and how about when someone burns a torah. They riot and kill because of it. Damn savages.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally Posted by Abwx
Zionism is the only surviving among the fascist ideologies that
were bornat the end of the XIXth century in Europe and whose rootsare on supremacists nationalisms whose most known ones
did prosper in Germany , Italy and Spain.

Indeed , israel has adopted the infamous German s Nuremberg s laws
as its "legal" base.

No surprise that the zionists were very appealed by the nazi ideology....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

I read that link.....proves nothing really...it proves nothing.......
In fact if you were honest and for your own benefit read the link you posted you would have to retract what you stated. Nowhere in that wiki article does it say they adopted or became allies with the Nazi`s. In fact it states and I quote -- This proposed alliance with Nazi Germany cost Lehi and Stern much support.
Also when you are desperate to save your people you will look for desperate solutions -- but Nooo you wouldn`t dare mention that in the proposed alliance was -- Germany would recognize an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel, and all Jews leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, could enter Palestine with no restriction of numbers. Stern also proposed to recruit some 40,000 Jews from occupied Europe to invade Palestine with German support to oust the British.[32] -- again the saying goes -- one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist!!

It does not explain why Lemon law uses such inaccurate terms as GENOCIDE and it does not explain why Lemon law cannot make a point by point comparison.

Perhaps you would like to take woolf9999`s challenge....
So, LL, tell us why the Israeli government is the equivalent of Nazi Germany. Tell us, with specific point by point comparisons that you have never given before. If you're struggling here, start by finding any of several generally recognized definitions of the word "genocide" and go from there.

 

[Lemon law]

Yeah and how about when someone burns a torah. They riot and kill because of it. Damn savages.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly and IMHO, typical Hayabusa Rider deflections. When confronted with incontrovertible proof of Israeli perfidy, he drags in some excuse that more applies to Afghanistan.

If we want to be fair minded, we can acknowledged that the Arab and Palestinians were responsible for a part of the problems, but still the honest admit two wrongs don't make a right. Its honestly time to admit Israeli, Arab, and Palestinian wrongs, and try to craft a just peace for the mid-east.

 

[JEDIYoda]

When confronted with incontrovertible proof of Israeli

That link was no proof...sheese......
read what you want and throw out the facts because you don`t agree....lolol

 

[Lemon law]

As JediY asks, So, LL, tell us why the Israeli government is the equivalent of Nazi Germany. Tell us, with specific point by point comparisons that you have never given before. If you're struggling here, start by finding any of several generally recognized definitions of the word "genocide" and go from there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Maybe exactly the point, the definition of genocide is the destruction of an entire racial, religious, or ethnic group.

Maybe the root of of differences Jediy, is that you define genocide by the physical act of murder, and I take the broader view that genocide is the mass deprivation of a group's human right's on the basis of Hereditary. And that is why I don't see much difference between the reprehensible acts of Hitler and the Present Israeli government.

As I form my views because I believe in American values. That all people have inalienable rights not determined by race color or creed. And Israel maintains Palestinians have no human rights and never will have because they are somehow a inferior species, as God somehow gave Israeli to only Jews.

Sorry Jediy, that gulf between you and I is unbridgeable.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Sorry Jediy, that gulf between you and I is unbridgeable.

Actually the gulf is unbridgeable because you take extreme liberties with definitions to attract attention to your cause!

It`s not just you and I....in fact you yourself admitted earlier --

Lemon law --
I admit the forum consensus seems to be that I am nuts.

The problem is you choose willingly to misrepresent and exaggerate your case by misusing words and playing the Nazi card when you are backed into a corner.

Shalom!

 

[Abwx]

Yeah and how about when someone burns a torah. They riot and kill because of it. Damn savages.

You are responding by talking of a local unimportant event
to a post describing hystorical facts about the origins
of fascist ideologies...

I thought you had more intelligence and would have used the link
i gave to check if i was right about zionism being a perfect nazi
inspired ideology, i would say even worse since it s a totaly
supremacist ideology as aknowledged by the words of a zionist
israeli prime minister , ex Irgoun terrorist ,while he was holding the power.

Here his public declaration at the israeli knesset :

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Israeli prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982

In what other country could a prime minister hold such a discourse
and not be immediatly banned and barred by the whole international
community ?...

 

[JEDIYoda]

You are responding by talking of a local unimportant event
to a post describing hystorical facts about the origins
of fascist ideologies...

I thought you had more intelligence and would have used the link
i gave to check if i was right about zionism being a perfect nazi
inspired ideology, i would say even worse since it s a totaly
supremacist ideology as aknowledged by the words of a zionist
israeli prime minister , ex Irgoun terrorist ,while he was holding the power.

Here his public declaration at the israeli knesset :

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Israeli prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982

In what other country could a prime minister hold such a discourse
and not be immediatly banned and barred by the whole international
community ?...

Your quote and comparison with Hitler are both totally bogus!

You quoted a radical French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, a contributor to the far left wing anti American magazine Le Monde diplomatique. Incidentally Kapeliouk was Yasser Arafat's biographer, [Arafat l’irréductible], He was exposed by CAMERA: Committee for Accuarcy in Middle East Reporting in America, for distortion by an Israeli critic of a Begin speech discussing terrorism and terrorists.

http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&…

Investigation--Example 2: Internet hate sites, as well as Fisk, attribute this derogation of Palestnians as “two-legged beasts” to former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. The source generally given is:

Menachem Begin, as quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts,"New Statesman, June 25, 1982

Indeed, the radical French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, did attribute such a quote to Begin in his New Statesman article criticizing Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. The author posited:

For this reason the government has gone to extraordinary lengths to dehumanise the Palestinians. Begin described them in a speech in the Knesset as "beasts walking on two legs".

However, further investigation by CAMERA reveals that the actual speech upon which Kapeliouk based his quote, as well as news reports at the time demonstrate that the journalist distorted the quote, giving it a completely different tone and meaning. Begin was talking, not about "the Palestinians" but about terrorists who target children within Israel.

On June 8, 1982, Begin addressed the Knesset in response to a no-confidence motion over Israel's invasion of Lebanon. He talked about defending the children of Israel, and according to a June 9, 1982 AP report, “his voice quaver[ed] with anger and sadness.” According to the minutes of the session, Begin stated:

The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents.

Kapeliouk neither recanted nor apologized for his deception.

Summary: Distortion by an Israeli critic of a Begin speech discussing terrorism and terrorists.
--------------------------------------…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Be…
The following is the accepted quote from the '82 Knesset address!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Be…
"The hour of decision has arrived. You know what I have done, and what all of us have done, to prevent war and bereavement. But our fate is that in the Land of Israel there is no escape from fighting in the spirit of self-sacrifice. Believe me, the alternative to fighting is Treblinka, and we have resolved that there would be no Treblinkas. This is the moment in which courageous choice has to be made. The criminal terrorists and the world must know that the Jewish people have a right to self-defense, just like any other people." [29] (Knesset address prior to invasion of Lebanon, 5 June 1982)
[29. Iron Wall, p. 404-405]
______________________________________…
Kamola: There are no CAPS or exreme punctuation in either my remarks or the Askers! Please follow your own advice, do some research instead of being rude, arrogant and insulting. The only shout here came from you!____________________________________…
Shar
You cannot offer proof that your quotes are factually correct, therefore, your argument is hollow.
"Israeli writer describes Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat as a statesman "sensitive" to the concerns of Israel" (Amnon Kapeliouk). Kapeliouk attributes this to Arafat, a mass murderer, leader of a terroist organization, who personally ordered scores of homicide bombers to attack Israel. The Munich operation was ordered by Yasser Arafat and carried out by Fatah, Arafat's faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). In January 24, 2000, the official newspaper of Yasir Arafat's Palestinian Authority (Al-Hayat Al-Jadida) urged Arab regimes to boycott the summer Olympic Games in Australia, because a moment of silence was planned at the start of the games in memory of the eleven Israeli athletes murdered by Arafat's PLO terrorists at the 1972 Munich Olympics.Are these the actions of one who is "sensitive" to the concerns of Israel?
There is no question that Amnon Kapeliouk views are sympathetic to terrorism and cannot be accepted as objective.[/B]

 

[Lemon law]

Earth to JediY, Machanin Begin was a mass murder and and a card carrying terrorist. The fellow who bombed the King David Hotel. JediY, you have some real funny heroes and human turds you seek to defend. As I remind you international war crimes still hang over Israel.

 

[rchiu]

While I do not agree with Israel's domestic policies against people in Palestine, I do think their focus on military is needed.

It takes two to tango is the perfect expression to describe this mess. Israel does have fault, but if those Muslim countries didn't talk about wiping Israel off the face of the earth publicly and privately, Israel probably won't go that far with their strong armed tactic.

Is Israel's strategy sustainable? Maybe not, but this is not a local conflict. Israel won't be fighting Muslim countries by themselves, that's perfectly clear. They have been getting allies all over the world and have strong backing from the US. Even if Muslim countries become stronger and is able to beat Israel military, and that is a big if, they still have to deal with the western alliance Israel has created.

As is, the Muslim world itself is failing, bunch of revolutions going on, more religion involvement and control of the politics. More focus on faith instead of science, economy and technology. And the worst thing is, they position themselves as we against the world. Those fanatics pushing independence in many countries and commit terrorism against innocent civilians. That's not gonna get them any international allies.

So for now, it's more like Muslim world is not sustainable with the direction they are going, not Israel.

 

[Karl Agathon]

^^^^^ Rchiu......it is a BIG if, and no matter how strong those other countries get, it wont change Israel's already massive Samson Option second strike capability should one anyone of those countries decide its worth it to commit national suicide.