The curremt Israeli staregy is unsustainable.

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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From the word go I will state this is my MHO opinion and nothing more. As I will also state a certain admiration for the Jewish religions world history. As the Israeli rabbinical traditions has always favored culture and human knowledge. Maybe we can debate if the Israelis were the first religion to advocate monotheism or not, but we can certainly say every ancient civilization had their own religious beliefs to unite and justify their nationality idenity as nationhood hood jumped the shark from being small groups of hunter and gathers to actual larger classes called nations that can go on to being national and united regional powers. United by religion, able to become a regional military power to enforce their national religious will on others.

So right away an agnostic like me asks 3 questions. (1) Why should be religion be a universal organizing principle for ancient civilizations? (2) Why should, in least in Western history, should monotheism be a better principle than polytheism? (3) If we compare various multiple religions, how do we find the one single right religion among the other phonies?

But still I have to admire the Jewish religion, because almost unique among all other conquered small religions, the Jewish religion maintained its religious identity for at least 1800 years after Rome exiled the Jewish people from Israel. As the Jewish people became a small minority religion in almost every country on earth. While Jews had to face religious some alternating periods of alternating discrimination iand acceptance n almost every country they found themselves in. But still, truth be told, that Jewish minority somehow almost always led its host country in culture and learning.

So why should we have anti-antisemitism as a almost universal reaction for the past 1800 years of world history? A key question IMHO. Is it a question that Jews are indeed superior people and lesser people are envious, or it the fact the Jews refuse to assimilate with other cultures, as Jews consider themselves superior and divide the world into Jews and inferior gentiles and thus pissed off all gentiles? Somewhat of a chicken or egg question or maybe a self fufilling propesy.

But still, for the Jewish people, the whole antisemitism came to critical mass with the rise of Adolph Hitler who advocated the ultimate solution to the Jewish question could only be the complete extermination of all Jews on a hereditary basis. The fact that Hitler was a complete anti-antisemitism nut case was not unique in European history, the shocking fact, IMHO, was in the fact so many so called civilized European countries supported Hitler.

As the Jewish Holocaust became part of WW2 and a stain on humanity. But still in a WW2 that cost at least 50 million lives, why should we only blame only antisemitism that only accounted for 12% of all WW2 casualties?

But still as all the dust settled in WW2, the larger European people who supported Hitler faced a Jewish refugee crisis from millionions of penny less Jewish people that had somehow survived the Hitler extermination camps.

If there were was ever a set of people who could say to the world, you owe us justice, The Jewish refugees of Europe would be high up on that list in MHO. Because where to relocate Israeli refugees became problem one. Because giving Jewish refugees virgin land and devolopment money would have been the ideal way to establish a 100% Jewish State with no gentiles. Of course by the 20'th century, there was no depopulated habital land to be found. So to properly compensate the Jew's, the question is where to put them? As the Europeans that were almost 100% responsible for the WW2 Jewish holocaust adopted a brilliant plan to dump their Jewish refuges on Israel. Bot not only did all Arab nations cry NIMB, the former British mandate already populated by mainly Palestinian land owners, became the 1948 state of Israel.

Had the Israeli Jews in 1948 respected the land owned by Palestinians, IMHO, Israel would now be a respected mid-east State, but instead Israel choose the use the same tactics as Hitler to disenfranchise Palestinians who lived in the 1948 former Brisish mandate, who owned 2/3 of the land that became 1948 Israel. In effect punishing unarmed Palestinians for the sins of attacking Arab armies. By 1953, the Palestine ethnic cleansing was compete as it became illegal for a Palestinian to even own land in Israel. As the right of return is still a viable legal principle today. However, Israeli, still fearing stirring up more Arab State hatreds, allowed some Arab Nationals to retain land owning rights inside of Israel As 1948 State of Israel finally got rid of all its Palestiniansand became an all Jewish government.

But then we have to ask, who should be responsible for that set of Palestinians that formerly lived on the land that became 1948 Israel? Who were deprived of their land and human right's without any due process of law. As the Israeli Jews used the same tactics Hitler used on them to disentranchise Palestinians. With the one exception, Israelis felt no need to kill Palestinians after they had gotten rid of them.

But where the Palestinians went is after they were chased out of Israel was mainly to the West Bank and Gaza, both areas weakly held by either Joran or Egypt. And as other Arab nations at least fed and let the Palestinians own land, the 1967&73 Israeli wars brought the Israelis right back at the Palestinians throat, but this time Israel has no place to chase the Palestinians. But since the UN forbids land by conquest, Israel has no legitimate claim to the West Bank and Gaza, Israel remains in control of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jersalem 39 years later only because they are still allowed to run a miliary occupation.

In 1992, there was some hope, in a land for peace swap where the Palestinians could form a viable Palestinian State in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, but by 2012, Israel has snuck some 500,000 illegal Israeli immigrants onto disputed land. Meaning by now, the hope of a viable Palestinian State is about dead, as Israel now has a totally unsustainable long term survival strategy in the mid-east as Israel tries to outward extend its zone of control.

First, IMHO, its important to understand why the present Israel stance of having total military hegemony in the mid-east was effective before but can't work long term. First the odds are terrible, no more than 7 Israeli Jews Israel can rely on against a total Arab population of a hostile 280 million people Arab. Worse yet, the Arabs have massive oil money and Israel has little national resources to sell. Presidents like Eisenhower and Kennedy took a dim view of the Israeli theft of Palestinian lands, but still Nasser of Egypt and his threats to close the Suez canal made Israeli military might an asset to the US and the EU in keeping the Canal open in 1956 to 1958. As a result the French basically build Israel the nuclear weapons breeder reactor at Dismona. Later on, two US Presidents currently lowly regarded Prez's in LBJ and Nixon as very dull knifes in the drawer also aided and armed Israel to the teeth while engaging in a unwinnable military quagmire in Vietnam. At about the same time, Palestinian protests and attacks started that same unwinningable insurgency against Israel. Because Israel's 1948 land theft sins still haunt it on the eve of Israel 64'th birthday.

Lots of US water has gone under the dam since Nixon met his waterloo at watergate. As the USA has bled blood, treasure, and economic decline in two brand new quagmires in Afghanistan and Iraq. As the EU and most of US allies grow increasing disenchanted with US foreign policy, and now regard Israeli greed and stupidity as the greatest threat to world stability. As the past 10 years for Israel has been a total disaster to its international standing. In just the past two years
Israel has lost 30 years of diplomatic progress in inking treaties with Egypt, Jordan, and Tirkey. In the past 4 years Israel still faces international war crimes charges over its rape of Gaza, and in the past 7 years the Arab still remember the rape of Lebanon. While the events of the Arab spring still continue, as old line Arab Dictator after old line dictator topple, as younger Arab youth demand action and not mere words in terms of improving their economies.

But still, the Israel military dominance strategy demands that Israel military have more military power than all the Arab States combined. Which in the end can't work long term unless, in rising tides, all Arab boats sink, and only Israeli boats rise. Which is simply not happening as Turkish, Lebanese, and Egyptian boats are rising faster than Israeli boars, there will be growing debate about anyone's ability to keep Iranian boats from rising, and question will soon arise if its even wise for Uncle susker to keep only 7 million Jews propped up when (1) Uncle Sam's foreign policy foreign policy money cubbord is bare. (2) When its somewhat stiupid to alienate 280 million Arab with oil to support the questionable and unsustainable policies of Israel? An Israel that is now far more of a laibility than a US asset. In short, the USA and the EU tried the militarily dominate the mid-east strategy and now discover it only leads to unwinnable quagmires in what now amounts to a post colonial era.

Now the next question becomes, since the entire Israeli strategy is now invested in maintaning a unsustainable domiance of all its Arab neighbors, how can Israel avoid being pushed into the sea by all its Arab Neighbors who have a 64 year Israeli track record to inspire their hatreds of Israel.?

And their we can only have hope and wisdom from the South African experience. Israel has a huge amount of Engineering talent, pipelines and water desalification plants can make the entire semiarid mid-east bloom, and only mid-east regional cooperation can make a better life for all possible. I am an optimist, I see the glass half full and refilling, rather than see the glass half empty and better steal as much as you can before the glass is totally empty.
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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First the odds are terrible, no more than 7 Israeli Jews Israel can rely on against a total Arab population of a hostile 280 million people Arab.

It's not simply a numbers game. In the colonial period, very small groups of Europeans defeated large armies of natives, sometimes just with a couple towed canons. The Israelis are into high-technology. The Muslim Middle-East isn't. So the Muslim states are not going to beat Israel in a conventional war anytime soon. If the Muslim states decide to nuke Israel, they'll get nuked back. If the Muslim states somehow become more technologically advanced, they will probably have undergone societal changes to the point where they are no longer interested in attacking Israel.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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The problem with your argument is that middle eastern militaries have as much combat prowess as you have writing prowess.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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So why should we have anti-antisemitism as a almost universal reaction for the past 1800 years of world history? A key question IMHO.

Universal means 100% of the time. Even in Nazi Germany 100% of people were not antisemitic. And if you simply were exaggerating and meant "widespread" you could ask the same thing about race. Has racism been around for so many millenia because it's valid? Is murder valid because it's been around for so long? Of course not.

PS LOL you are so transparent.
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
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Universal means 100% of the time. Even in Nazi Germany 100% of people were not antisemitic. And if you simply were exaggerating and meant "widespread" you could ask the same thing about race. Has racism been around for so many millenia because it's valid? Is murder valid because it's been around for so long? Of course not.

PS LOL you are so transparent.


why do you keep bringing up the Nazis? I don't ever see you bringing up Napoleon or Genghis Khan? they're all faded memories. move forward.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
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LemonLaw, I see a lot of sentences beginning with the word 'as' again. I talked at you about this already. :colbert:
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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why do you keep bringing up the Nazis? I don't ever see you bringing up Napoleon or Genghis Khan? they're all faded memories. move forward.

Funny how you didn't attack the OP for bringing up the Holocaust before Infohawk did.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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The failure of the OP is in wanting to force people off their land.

Muslims lost wars in the past, and unless you wish to lose wars in the future I suggest you give up that land. How many millions of Muslim lives is it worth?
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
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The problem with your argument is that middle eastern militaries have as much combat prowess as you have writing prowess.

Yeah no matter how you feel about the subject the Israelis have pretty much kicked all their neighbor's asses every time there's been a conflict in the region.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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As the Europeans that were almost 100% responsible for the WW2 Jewish holocaust adopted a brilliant plan to dump their Jewish refuges on Israel.

Pretty sure the Jewish survivors weren't going to let "Europeans" tell them where they could go. Face it, many Jews chose to go to Israel for religious reasons, not because anyone told them where they could go.

Funny how you didn't attack the OP for bringing up the Holocaust before Infohawk did.

Not to mention the fact that both SandEagle and OP are obsessive posters on the topic of Israel but somehow SandEagle feels he's in a position to tell other people they talk about a topic too much.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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As infohawk states, "The Israelis are into high-technology. The Muslim Middle-East isn't."

But the USA and the EU are arguably more technologically advanced, but that has not helped the USA win quagmires in Vietnam, Iraq, and now Afghanistan that is really gone South recently. As GWB's war on terrorism has increased world wide terrorism levels and not decreased it. Maybe Nebor is right, my writing prowess may not be that great, but still that does absolutely nothing to make the questions I ask go away!

In case you have not noticed, I too advocate Israeli survival.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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As infohawk states, "The Israelis are into high-technology. The Muslim Middle-East isn't."

But the USA and the EU are arguably more technologically advanced, but that has not helped the USA win quagmires in Vietnam, Iraq, and now Afghanistan that is really gone South recently.

Those are apples and oranges. One is a defensive war and the other is an offensive war. One is a "low intensity conflict" and the other is total war. Do you think that Vietnam or Iraq could have invaded the USA? Do you think Afghanistan could have invaded the USSR? No. And the Israelis won't be invaded by their Muslim neighbors as long as their neighbors remain backwards.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
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Well Lemon, your opinion has about as much value as a screen door does on a submarine.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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This is only my take on it, but I think the reason why anti-semitism exists is two fold. First is the natural human reaction. The Jews keep themselves seperated by culture. They follow and fit into the surrounding culture, but have another culture all to themselves which outsiders do not fit into and cannot really comprehend. Humans fear those who are different (natural survival tactic, which also explains why humans self segregate given the opportunity). This fear leads to stupidity and hate.

The other reason assumes God and Satan exist. Satan knows he can win if he destroy's the Jews, for God has them embedded into His future plans. As such, Satan keeps trying to kill or assimilate the Jews. God protects the Jews until they decide they no longer need to follow Him, then He removes His protection and Satan goes hog (pun intended) wild on them.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Those are apples and oranges. One is a defensive war and the other is an offensive war. One is a "low intensity conflict" and the other is total war. Do you think that Vietnam or Iraq could have invaded the USA? Do you think Afghanistan could have invaded the USSR? No. And the Israelis won't be invaded by their Muslim neighbors as long as their neighbors remain backwards.

eh? why does any hypothetical "could they haves" matter in such an argument.

it doesn't matter. what we have are the facts of the engagements that actually happen.

for all the chest thumping and dick-enlarging that people get into when puffing up about "military superiority," they sure have looked disastrously foolish when finding superior military prowess being constantly thwarted by stone age tribal cultures.

No one, since and including Alexander the Great, has been able to conquer those pesky Afghanis. When are those in charge, and those that make baseless arguments, ever going to consider the centuries of history that are available to them?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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The Mongols did it:

266.jpg
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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eh? why does any hypothetical "could they haves" matter in such an argument.

it doesn't matter. what we have are the facts of the engagements that actually happen.

for all the chest thumping and dick-enlarging that people get into when puffing up about "military superiority," they sure have looked disastrously foolish when finding superior military prowess being constantly thwarted by stone age tribal cultures.

No one, since and including Alexander the Great, has been able to conquer those pesky Afghanis. When are those in charge, and those that make baseless arguments, ever going to consider the centuries of history that are available to them?

It doesn't seem like you're following the argument. Go back and read what I quoted and if you're up to it read all of what LL wrote. LL is saying Israel can't defend itself forever against hundreds of millions of Muslim neighbors. I responded that its neighbors are too backwards to INVADE and destroy Israel. (Not that Israel or the US can invade any country in the middle-east.) LL then responded by saying that certain poor countries win wars (it's noteworthy that these tend to be Pyrrhic victories). I responded that we're talking about a specific case of the poorer countries invading the richer countries. There is not much precedent for that. Therefore, Israel's neighbors in their current condition are not going to be able to INVADE and destroy Israel. This is not a discussion about the merits of the Afghanistan or Iraq wars.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
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The Mongols did it:

266.jpg

Yep, and they basically used the same tactics as the Soviets. You pay whatever taxes they want, or 10,000 horseback archers show up and proceed to rape and kill half your population; and there's nothing you can do about it.

Honestly Afghanistan would now be a Soviet state if the US hadn't intervened. The Afghans were simply being wiped out.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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As infohawk states, "The Israelis are into high-technology. The Muslim Middle-East isn't."

But the USA and the EU are arguably more technologically advanced, but that has not helped the USA win quagmires in Vietnam, Iraq, and now Afghanistan that is really gone South recently. As GWB's war on terrorism has increased world wide terrorism levels and not decreased it. Maybe Nebor is right, my writing prowess may not be that great, but still that does absolutely nothing to make the questions I ask go away!
This claim again? It has been shot down many, many times. You are lumping in military success with subsequent occupations and nation building.

The US military routed both Saddam's military and the Taliban in very little time and they didn't use the full might of the military in doing so. Besides that, this is about Israel, not the US, and every time Israel has been in a full scale war against their Arab neighbors they have sent them limping back home.

As far as your OP, it's another variation of the same tiresome recycled theme you've been prophesizing for years in here and it still hasn't come to pass. Oh, but we know. Any day now. Any day.

:rolleyes:
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Well no discussion is complete with out the Status quo chicken man. As any day any day is infinite in extent. Who would of thunk it in zero AD, that Rome would ever fall, or that the USA, with its nearly infinite world dominance in 1955 could lose its economic dominance? Or that a France at the height of its powers during the rein of Louis the 14'th would be in revolution and anarchy in a generation of two.