The corporate media's propaganda about the "labor shortage" is disgusting

[[DHT]Osiris]

Do you seriously not understand the difference between a manager and a line cook? Either you don’t understand the difference, which is mind boggling ignorance, or you do understand the difference, which means you’re dishonestly conflating the two.

Remember, you’re the one that compared a manager’s wages to a nurse, too.

And truth be told, you could probably find a wage parity between a nurse and a restaurant manager. $50k is still to low for both, doubly so in a city.

 

[Greenman]

Yes. Labor should be able to live off the wages of their work. Not sure why that is a hard concept. The guy working the fry machine at McDonald's is working harder than half the people on this forum. Why shouldn't he be able to afford a decent meal and healthcare and a place to live.

Then pick the magic number or formula for determining the minimum wage, then lets make it law. I'm good with whatever it is. If the target is a $100k a year then lets mandate that and move on. The market will sort itself out.
We should at the same time completely ban imports from any country that doesn't have an equivalent minimum wage.

 

[fskimospy]

And truth be told, you could probably find a wage parity between a nurse and a restaurant manager. $50k is still to low for both, doubly so in a city.

And people don’t like to hear it but managing a fast food restaurant is not exactly easy. My job as a manager is extremely easy because all of my employees are career track professionals who are happy to do whatever I ask them. I can only imagine how hard it would be to corral a bunch of fast food workers.

 

[fskimospy]

Then pick the magic number or formula for determining the minimum wage, then lets make it law. I'm good with whatever it is. If the target is a $100k a year then lets mandate that and move on. The market will sort itself out.
We should at the same time completely ban imports from any country that doesn't have an equivalent minimum wage.

Why would we want to impoverish Americans in an attempt to export our labor laws?

It’s really weird how many people think banning imports would help the average American. Does North Korea seem like a good economic model to you?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

And people don’t like to hear it but managing a fast food restaurant is not exactly easy. My job as a manager is extremely easy because all of my employees are career track professionals who are happy to do whatever I ask them. I can only imagine how hard it would be to corral a bunch of fast food workers.

Lol, I know you couldn't pay me enough to be a manager in a service industry, especially in this fucking country. The last service industry job I had I actually joined the military to get out of.

I'll stick to IT, thanks.

 

[K1052]

It’s really weird how many people think banning imports would help the average American. Does North Korea seem like a good economic model to you?

No immigrants and no imports. What could go wrong?

 

[fskimospy]

No immigrants and no imports. What could go wrong?

Apparently market efficiencies end at the water’s edge, haha.

 

[Zorba]

Then pick the magic number or formula for determining the minimum wage, then lets make it law. I'm good with whatever it is. If the target is a $100k a year then lets mandate that and move on. The market will sort itself out.
We should at the same time completely ban imports from any country that doesn't have an equivalent minimum wage.

The number depends on location obviously, but I'd think mid teens per hour is probably about right. Higher on the coasts, lower in the middle. Then tie it to inflation.

I think that we should tariff goods from countries that don't have our labor or environmental protections. If we care about people and the environment, we should care about it anywhere our shit is made.

 

[JD50]

If a "burger flipper" working full time can't afford food, housing, and healthcare, how exactly are they supposed to survive?

 

[fskimospy]

The number depends on location obviously, but I'd think mid teens per hour is probably about right. Higher on the coasts, lower in the middle. Then tie it to inflation.

I agree with you that we should tariff goods from countries that don't have our labor or environmental protections.

That would greatly diminish the quality of life in both America and those countries.

 

[fskimospy]

If a "burger flipper" working full time can't afford food, housing, and healthcare, how exactly are they supposed to survive?

We are supposed to subsidize the fast food restaurant’s business model with public funds and pretend not to notice.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

We are supposed to subsidize the fast food restaurant’s business model with public funds and pretend not to notice.

This is key, you subsidize the business, not the person.

 

[JD50]

We are supposed to subsidize the fast food restaurant’s business model with public funds and pretend not to notice.

Yea but that's communism and we're not allowed to do that either.

 

[Zorba]

That would greatly diminish the quality of life in both America and those countries.

We either have morals or we don't. I don't think we should buy from places destroying the environment, using child labor, or treat employee's as expendable machines. If my shoes cost a bit more I'm fine with that.

I really don't understand why we say a factory here can't pump out toxic gasses, but then will happily buy from a factory pumping out toxic gasses in Mexico.

 

[fskimospy]

Yea but that's communism and we're not allowed to do that either.

It reminds me of how when McDonalds put out it’s sample budget for now its workers were supposed to live on minimum wage it included a second job.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

We either have morals or we don't. I don't think we should buy from places destroying the environment, using child labor, or treat employee's as expendable machines. If my shoes cost a bit more I'm fine with that.

I really don't understand why we say a factory here can't pump out toxic gasses, but then will happily buy from a factory pumping out toxic gasses in Mexico.

Because humans are tribal, and we only concern ourselves with what happens to our tribe. Even the most tree-hugging hippies among us tend to not care about us littering the next planet over with RTG's, hydrazine, space garbage/wrecked landers, and potentially colonizing it with alien bacteria.

 

[fskimospy]

We either have morals or we don't. I don't think we should buy from places destroying the environment, using child labor, or treat employee's as expendable machines. If my shoes cost a bit more I'm fine with that.

I really don't understand why we say a factory here can't pump out toxic gasses, but then will happily buy from a factory pumping out toxic gasses in Mexico.

I think that’s easy to say from a place of relative comfort. An attempt to export US labor law to Bangladesh will not result in Bangladesh adopting those laws, it will result in no more goods from Bangladesh.

If you want to improve labor conditions in other countries the best way to do it is by making them richer through trade. Look at China, for example. Labor conditions there overall (sorry Uighurs) have improved dramatically because richer workers have more bargaining power.

 

[SMOGZINN]

If you say so. Explain why a fry cooker should be paid 50k/yr

Because they are in demand, and negotiate it.
If no one wants to cook fries then you have to do something to get people to want to cook fries. That is how a market really works.
Right now no one wants to cook fries, so the cost of cooking fries must increase.

The question really comes down to the economic value the worker provides.

Economic value is a very slippery concept. The economic value of a glass of water is negligible in the rain, and extreme in a desert.

Taking the fry cook, if all that person can do is cook fries, then their economic value is pretty low.

Unless your business is selling cooked fries. McDonalds would not stay in business long if they can't sell cooked foods.

McD's for example, could evaluate their pricing model and based on food, labor and overhead costs, determine that the economic value of a fry cook is $10/hr. Then it is up to the worker to decide if that is a fair wage for their labor or not. If it is not, then the worker can do several things to increase their economic value. Education, vocational training, etc... If they choose not to increase their economic value, well they have made their choice.

That argument is flat out wrong. One of the major things the worker can do is not work at McDonalds and wait for McDonalds to 'reevaluate' the economic value of a cook. The value of that cook is directly proportional to the scarcity of the cook, and overhead cost is almost irrelevant. Just looks at the CEO of McDonalds, who made 10.8 million. Is he really have an 'economic value' that high based on his labor? No, he has an economic value that high based on his rarity (and even that I question.)

Your 'get educated' argument is flat out silly, as it would be self defeating. If the vast majority of cooks went out and got Masters degrees then then the majority of cooks would just be vastly overeducated. Because we would still need fry cooks. The argument you are making is that the labor pool is infinite and so it does not matter what individuals do, but we are actually arguing about a case where the labor pool has dried up, and still we get this silly argument because apparently you are so indoctrinated that you just regurgitate the words you have been told to think without ever processing what they mean.

 

[Zorba]

I think that’s easy to say from a place of relative comfort. An attempt to export US labor law to Bangladesh will not result in Bangladesh adopting those laws, it will result in no more goods from Bangladesh.

If you want to improve labor conditions in other countries the best way to do it is by making them richer through trade. Look at China, for example. Labor conditions there overall (sorry Uighurs) have improved dramatically because richer workers have more bargaining power.

I agree, but a tariff wouldn't be "do this or no trade" it would be "you save 20% by not providing safe work environments for your employees, so we are going to tariff you 10-20%." Child labor imports should just be banned though, if a country is that poor they can find adults to work.

This is OT to this thread, though, so I'll move on. I know we've discussed this in the past.

 

[Meghan54]

And people don’t like to hear it but managing a fast food restaurant is not exactly easy. My job as a manager is extremely easy because all of my employees are career track professionals who are happy to do whatever I ask them. I can only imagine how hard it would be to corral a bunch of fast food workers.

Probably easier to herd cats.

 

[nOOky]

With the ever-increasing wage gap between the worker and management it won't get any better. CEO's are perceived as being more valuable than a burger flipper job that any warm body can do. The truth is that well run companies can afford to pay their employees better wages, they just pay what the market will allow them to. The best way to increase pay imho is to raise the minimum wage, and update it yearly for inflation. If your business can't pay it, then perhaps you should go out of business, and let your customers go somewhere that can.

In 2020, top CEOs earned 351 times more than the typical worker

Since 1978, CEO compensation has grown 1,322%, but typical worker compensation has risen 18%.

www.cnbc.com

With the decline of union protections for workers, workers have no power to bargain. Look at what just happened at John Deere, they screwed their employees over, the employees had the power to affect their own wages and benefits, and they won. Without that you have this:

The Top 1% of Americans Have Taken $50 Trillion From the Bottom 90%—And That's Made the U.S. Less Secure

A report shows that a $50 trillion redistribution of income to benefit the richest has made America less healthy, resilient, and secure

time.com

 

[shortylickens]

It reminds me of how when McDonalds put out it’s sample budget for now its workers were supposed to live on minimum wage it included a second job.

walmart actually gave out pamphlets telling their employees out to get welfare.

 

[NWRMidnight]

If a "burger flipper" working full time can't afford food, housing, and healthcare, how exactly are they supposed to survive?

They're supposed to go out and get better jobs by learning a trade, going to collage, etc, So they can make a livable wage that they can survive on!. Or at least that is what the conservatives parrots like to say. Which is exactly what's taking place now, many have moved on to better jobs, and guess what the conservatives parrots are doing... Bitching about people doing exactly what they said they should do, and many of them are business owners who can't find help.. You know what that shows.. EVERY job is important to society, and it's time they everyone working full time can earn a living, no matter the job, as they all have a place and are needed for society to function.


To those that keep saying "what the market can bare", that is a falsehood. It's a term used to manipulate people and wages.. that's it. What companies are willing to pay, over all, has very little to do with the Market, but has everything to do with maximizing profits.

 

[Vic]

Your second sentence is just gaslighting as I said nothing of the sort. It's your unfounded assumption/biases.

The question really comes down to the economic value the worker provides. Taking the fry cook, if all that person can do is cook fries, then their economic value is pretty low. McD's for example, could evaluate their pricing model and based on food, labor and overhead costs, determine that the economic value of a fry cook is $10/hr. Then it is up to the worker to decide if that is a fair wage for their labor or not. If it is not, then the worker can do several things to increase their economic value. Education, vocational training, etc... If they choose not to increase their economic value, well they have made their choice.

It never ceases to amaze when 'conservatives' argue for a Marxist economic model instead of a market-based model. I get it that you probably don't know that you did that, but you did.
Labor does not have fixed economic values, and cost is only loosely correlated with prices. Here in America, we use a market-based capitalist economic model wherein scarcity and supply and demand allow parties to negotiate value, and not Marx's theory of value.
And as poor a negotiating position as a fry cook has, it is not zero. Because if McD's can't find enough fry cooks at $10/hr to serve their customers, then they risk losing more money through (among other things) failure to generate enough revenue to meet their fixed overhead than if they were able to meet their staffing needs by paying a market wage.
I'd also like to point out that there is more than enough consumer demand at this time to pass on the increased labor costs. In fact, restaurants are booming and would be increasing prices even in the absence of higher costs. So all you did here, whether you realize it or not, is argue Marxism, but as a means to screw over workers.

 

[dphantom]

Your assumption is that only McDonalds has agency in determining the value of a french fryer. Workers have decided to tell McDonalds to get bent.

Not at all. It is inherently obvious. The worker can simply not work if they think their economic value is greater than what the employer assesses. If the worker decides not to work, then the worker has nothing and it cannot then be the fault of the employer. As you say, the worker has agency as well.