The corporate media's propaganda about the "labor shortage" is disgusting

[dphantom]

Because they are in demand, and negotiate it.
If no one wants to cook fries then you have to do something to get people to want to cook fries. That is how a market really works.
Right now no one wants to cook fries, so the cost of cooking fries must increase.


Economic value is a very slippery concept. The economic value of a glass of water is negligible in the rain, and extreme in a desert.


Unless your business is selling cooked fries. McDonalds would not stay in business long if they can't sell cooked foods.



That argument is flat out wrong. One of the major things the worker can do is not work at McDonalds and wait for McDonalds to 'reevaluate' the economic value of a cook. The value of that cook is directly proportional to the scarcity of the cook, and overhead cost is almost irrelevant. Just looks at the CEO of McDonalds, who made 10.8 million. Is he really have an 'economic value' that high based on his labor? No, he has an economic value that high based on his rarity (and even that I question.)

Your 'get educated' argument is flat out silly, as it would be self defeating. If the vast majority of cooks went out and got Masters degrees then then the majority of cooks would just be vastly overeducated. Because we would still need fry cooks. The argument you are making is that the labor pool is infinite and so it does not matter what individuals do, but we are actually arguing about a case where the labor pool has dried up, and still we get this silly argument because apparently you are so indoctrinated that you just regurgitate the words you have been told to think without ever processing what they mean.

lol

 

[dphantom]

It never ceases to amaze when 'conservatives' argue for a Marxist economic model instead of a market-based model. I get it that you probably don't know that you did that, but you did.
Labor does not have fixed economic values, and cost is only loosely correlated with prices. Here in America, we use a market-based capitalist economic model wherein scarcity and supply and demand allow parties to negotiate value, and not Marx's theory of value.
And as poor a negotiating position as a fry cook has, it is not zero. Because if McD's can't find enough fry cooks at $10/hr to serve their customers, then they risk losing more money through (among other things) failure to generate enough revenue to meet their fixed overhead than if they were able to meet their staffing needs by paying a market wage.
I'd also like to point out that there is more than enough consumer demand at this time to pass on the increased labor costs. In fact, restaurants are booming and would be increasing prices even in the absence of higher costs. So all you did here, whether you realize it or not, is argue Marxism, but as a means to screw over workers.

nice try. wrong as usual, but good effort

 

[Vic]

Not at all. It is inherently obvious. The worker can simply not work if they think their economic value is greater than what the employer assesses. If the worker decides not to work, then the worker has nothing and it cannot then be the fault of the employer. As you say, the worker has agency as well.

And here you're making the flawed assumption that McD's (your hypothetical) offer of $10/hr is the only one available to the fry cooks, and therefore if they don't accept it they will have nothing. Obviously, there are many different restaurant employers out there that need fry cooks, and they will adjust their offers according to their staffing needs.

 

[Vic]

nice try. wrong as usual, but good effort

The fact that you are incapable of elaborating how I am wrong tells me that I am not.

 

[IronWing]

And here you're making the flawed assumption that McD's (your hypothetical) offer of $10/hr is the only one available to the fry cooks, and therefore if they don't accept it they will have nothing. Obviously, there are many different restaurant employers out there that need fry cooks, and they will adjust their offers according to their staffing needs.

It's worse than that. He is suggesting that the $10 is an objectively correct wage because it is the offered wage.

 

[Vic]

It's worse than that. He is suggesting that the $10 is an objectively correct wage because it is the offered wage.

Yeah, that was the Marxist part. The labor theory of value.

 

[Vic]

To those that keep saying "what the market can bare", that is a falsehood. It's a term used to manipulate people and wages.. that's it. What companies are willing to pay, over all, has very little to do with the Market, but has everything to do with maximizing profits.

I respectfully disagree as, right now, maximizing profits would be manipulating consumers by blaming labor shortages for higher prices, and then not offering their employees correspondingly higher wages.

 

[Meghan54]

Meanwhile, in Denmark.....Danes pay an extra 19 cents of every dollar in taxes, compared with Americans, but for that they get free health care, free education from kindergarten through college, subsidized high-quality preschool, a very strong social safety net and very low levels of poverty, homelessness, crime and inequality. On average, Danes live two years longer than Americans.

A Big Mac flipped by $22-an-hour workers isn’t even that much more expensive than an American one. Big Mac prices vary by outlet, but my spot pricing suggested that one might cost about 27 cents more on average in Denmark than in the United States. That 27 cents is the price of dignity.

Americans might suspect that the Danish safety net encourages laziness. But 79 percent of Danes ages 16 to 64 are in the labor force, five percentage points higher than in the United States.

Danes earn about the same after-tax income as Americans, even though they work on average 22 percent fewer hours; on the other hand, money doesn’t go as far in Denmark because prices average 18 percent higher. My own rough guess is that the top quarter of earners live better in America, but that the bottom three-quarters live better in Denmark.

You can agree or disagree that the trade-offs are worth it, but as you sit at a cafe in Copenhagen, sipping coffee and enjoying a Danish (called Viennese bread), Denmark hardly seems like a socialist nightmare.

Yeah, the horrible socialist enclave known as Denmark. LOL!!!

From here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/opinion/sunday/us-denmark-economy.html

 

[ElFenix]

I respectfully disagree as, right now, maximizing profits would be manipulating consumers by blaming labor shortages for higher prices, and then not offering their employees correspondingly higher wages.

I'm reminded of chipotle upping its prices earlier this year and blaming their new $15/hr floor. I don't recall them issuing a press release for blaming increasing shareholder returns for previous price hikes.

 

[nOOky]

Meanwhile, in Denmark.....Danes pay an extra 19 cents of every dollar in taxes, compared with Americans, but for that they get free health care, free education from kindergarten through college, subsidized high-quality preschool, a very strong social safety net and very low levels of poverty, homelessness, crime and inequality. On average, Danes live two years longer than Americans.

A Big Mac flipped by $22-an-hour workers isn’t even that much more expensive than an American one. Big Mac prices vary by outlet, but my spot pricing suggested that one might cost about 27 cents more on average in Denmark than in the United States. That 27 cents is the price of dignity.

Americans might suspect that the Danish safety net encourages laziness. But 79 percent of Danes ages 16 to 64 are in the labor force, five percentage points higher than in the United States.

Danes earn about the same after-tax income as Americans, even though they work on average 22 percent fewer hours; on the other hand, money doesn’t go as far in Denmark because prices average 18 percent higher. My own rough guess is that the top quarter of earners live better in America, but that the bottom three-quarters live better in Denmark.

You can agree or disagree that the trade-offs are worth it, but as you sit at a cafe in Copenhagen, sipping coffee and enjoying a Danish (called Viennese bread), Denmark hardly seems like a socialist nightmare.

Yeah, the horrible socialist enclave known as Denmark. LOL!!!

From here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/opinion/sunday/us-denmark-economy.html

I guarantee you that if many Americans that argue against "socialism" were suddenly thrust into it against their will and realized how it benefitted them they'd fight to keep it. Imagine hurting yourself, and going to the doctor because you know it wouldn't bankrupt you? Silly talk isn't it?

In America we have fostered that independent and tough attitude simply because we have been tricked into fighting for our low standard of living.

 

[dphantom]

The fact that you are incapable of elaborating how I am wrong tells me that I am not.

not really. I have to work and part of work is improving my economic worth so I can make more money to do the things wife and I want. It's difficult to have a real discussion when gaslighting and deliberate obfuscation is involved.

someone posted the McD example was not valid as the worker could go elsewhere. the point was not McDs, it was the "concept". someone else, after I suggested education/training to enhance the workers economic value, said - paraphrasing - something to the effect that worker now with a masters degree is still a fry cook. again missing the "concept" the idea about improving economic worth is so you dont have to be a fry cook any longer. But if that worker got a masters and is still a fry cook, it is obvious they chose poorly and have NOT in fact improved their economic worth.

but enough, been fun have a great life and might meet up in another thread sometime.

 

[shortylickens]

It's worse than that. He is suggesting that the $10 is an objectively correct wage because it is the offered wage.

Well, McDonalds is allegedly the wealthiest restaurant in the world. Dumb, I know, but supposedly true. I can only assume they figured out how to milk every last drop of profit out of their business model, so the corporation is NOT filled with morons.
Now, if they could just stop being evil monsters for a minute and consider that happy, healthy employees work harder and show greater loyalty, we may have a solution to the labor problem.

 

[NWRMidnight]

I respectfully disagree as, right now, maximizing profits would be manipulating consumers by blaming labor shortages for higher prices, and then not offering their employees correspondingly higher wages.

What do you think they are trying to do right now that is partially responsible for the labor shortage? They are raising prices, blaming it on the Labor shortage and the influx in not being able to keep up with demand, which is in part causing inflation, an still not offering a decent wage to attract help, and sure as hell not giving raises to those that are working.. Why do you think wages have been stagnate for decades as prices keep going up, as well as company profits making the rich, richer? It's not because they are offering their employees corresponding higher wages.. If that was the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation about labor shortages and living wages.

 

[FelixDeCat]

You dont have to work for peanuts. You can work for cashews, pecans or Brazil nuts if you prefer.

But someone has to work at McDonalds. Those chicken nuggets aren't going to make themselves.

 

[Meghan54]

You dont have to work for peanuts. You can work for cashews, pecans or Brazil nuts if you prefer.

But someone has to work at McDonalds. Those chicken nuggets aren't going to make themselves.

There's your opportunity to actually work for a change......go get 'em, u nugget hugger!

 

[brycejones]

Yea but that's communism and we're not allowed to do that either.

If you give the money to the business then it’s called an incentive and not communism.

 

[brycejones]

You dont have to work for peanuts. You can work for cashews, pecans or Brazil nuts if you prefer.

But someone has to work at McDonalds. Those chicken nuggets aren't going to make themselves.

Well then McD’s will need to increase wages and benefits until enough people are willing to work there to make the chicken nuggets.

 

[Zorba]

You dont have to work for peanuts. You can work for cashews, pecans or Brazil nuts if you prefer.

But someone has to work at McDonalds. Those chicken nuggets aren't going to make themselves.

No one has to work there. If paying enough to get employees is too much for them, they can close the store.

 

[brycejones]

No one has to work there. If paying enough to get employees is too much for them, they can close the store.

But Felix wants his chicken nuggets and the workers he treat like shit while he gets them.

 

[SMOGZINN]

lol

There is the reply of someone that has no way to refute the argument.

 

[SMOGZINN]

not really. I have to work and part of work is improving my economic worth so I can make more money to do the things wife and I want. It's difficult to have a real discussion when gaslighting and deliberate obfuscation is involved.

someone posted the McD example was not valid as the worker could go elsewhere. the point was not McDs, it was the "concept". someone else, after I suggested education/training to enhance the workers economic value, said - paraphrasing - something to the effect that worker now with a masters degree is still a fry cook. again missing the "concept" the idea about improving economic worth is so you dont have to be a fry cook any longer. But if that worker got a masters and is still a fry cook, it is obvious they chose poorly and have NOT in fact improved their economic worth.

but enough, been fun have a great life and might meet up in another thread sometime.

No, you are the one not getting it. You are talking about individual solutions to society level problems. If one person gets a masters degree they might improve their economic value, if everyone does it will not. So it can not be a solution to the society level problem. We can't tell everyone to go out and get a master degree as a solution to this problem because if they did it would not solve the problem. It would only solve the problem for the early adapters.

We have actually seen this in our society already. My dad will tell you that with just a high school diploma he was able to get a good job right out of school that allowed him to buy two cars and a house, and make a comfortable living. Firmly middle class. But decades later when he hires someone to do that same job it now requires a Bachelors degree at a minimum. Because as a society we told everyone to get an education to increase their economic value we caused education inflation.

 

[Meghan54]

No, you are the one not getting it. You are talking about individual solutions to society level problems. If one person gets a masters degree they might improve their economic value, if everyone does it will not. So it can not be a solution to the society level problem. We can't tell everyone to go out and get a master degree as a solution to this problem because if they did it would not solve the problem. It would only solve the problem for the early adapters.

We have actually seen this in our society already. My dad will tell you that with just a high school diploma he was able to get a good job right out of school that allowed him to buy two cars and a house, and make a comfortable living. Firmly middle class. But decades later when he hires someone to do that same job it now requires a Bachelors degree at a minimum. Because as a society we told everyone to get an education to increase their economic value we caused education inflation.

Then you combine that with the belief that tech schools and what they teach are less-than-desirable.....no matter if welding can make you rather well off, etc.

As an edit....then throw in the demise of the union and the apprentice programs they sponsored. Wasn't unusual for a hs grad to join the electrical workers union or steamfitters or whatever union, get educated/trained, certified and have a long, productive, profitable life.

 

[MrSquished]

Conservatives want a permanent class of working poor, with no healthcare and to live like paupers. That's really all this comes down to. A lack of values, morals and decency.

 

[KMFJD]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1467267030306934795

another example

 

[shortylickens]

Conservatives want a permanent class of working poor, with no healthcare and to live like paupers. That's really all this comes down to. A lack of values, morals and decency.

Whats funny is the vast majority of voters truly do not see how they hurt themselves every 4 years. The propaganda they listen to every day is working perfectly.